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-   -   Jolla Tablet Refunds (latest developments) (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94393)

Dave999 2016-01-17 18:15
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copernicus (Post 1495241)
Yup, that counts as a design success, an implementation success, a build success, and an epic shipment fail... :)
Yeah. So close...I can almost feel it.

http://cutecaptions.com/images/kitty...o-far-away.jpg

What about split screen...Will we ever get that? without that implementation is not a success.

BTW, I think jolla will send a chocolate bar as compensation.

MisterMaster 2016-01-17 18:32
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495243)
Yeah. So close...I can almost feel it.

http://cutecaptions.com/images/kitty...o-far-away.jpg

What about split screen...Will we ever get that? without that implementation is not a success.

BTW, I think jolla will send a chocolate bar as compensation.
http://jolla.se/wp-content/uploads/2...38-920x500.jpg

Dave999 2016-01-17 18:35
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMaster (Post 1495246)
Yeah. Now we're talking!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBiSGAhWUAAHrBr.jpg

pichlo 2016-01-17 20:27
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495239)
yeah, we go what we deserved :D
In a way, yes.

I introduced a few people I know to Jolla and to the tablet IGG campaign. The unanimous reaction to the idea of a commercial company running a campaign like that was... a snigger. No one, and I really mean no one, was ready to take such a company seriously. Just sayin'.

(BTW, I ran a similar poll again about the missing charger. Again, I have not counted a single case of approval.)

Dave999 2016-01-17 20:38
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Yes, and now even fewer take them seriously, me included. A company headed by the Joker.

Why so serious :D

velox 2016-01-17 23:19
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495243)
What about split screen...Will we ever get that? without that implementation is not a success.
Finally someone else concerned with the hard questions.
Hat tip to you, I agree wholeheartedly. The Update is due next week, or… soon. We will see.

gerbick 2016-01-18 04:15
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by velox (Post 1495268)
Finally someone else concerned with the hard questions.
Hat tip to you, I agree wholeheartedly. The Update is due next week, or… soon. We will see.
Split screen isn't coming for quite some time.

ZogG 2016-01-18 06:01
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1495275)
Split screen isn't coming for quite some time.
But didn't they tell that they finished OS like a half year ago?

gerbick 2016-01-18 06:06
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1495276)
But didn't they tell that they finished OS like a half year ago?
That was a stretch goal. The OS is complete. I swear somebody answered this for me a while back (can't locate it quickly) but this was not part of the deliverables.

I think.

[edit] Yep - here it starts... it was a 2.5mil stretch goal, which was not initially met and it was not brought back up on the second/extended funding - meaning it was not included and thus if it were to be come a deliverable, I'd be totally surprised.

Dave999 2016-01-18 06:59
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1495277)
That was a stretch goal. The OS is complete. I swear somebody answered this for me a while back (can't locate it quickly) but this was not part of the deliverables.

I think.

[edit] Yep - here it starts... it was a 2.5mil stretch goal, which was not initially met and it was not brought back up on the second/extended funding - meaning it was not included and thus if it were to be come a deliverable, I'd be totally surprised.
Split screen is in the game and something jolla should honor. It was 1750000 so it must be done before Jolla can say OS is done. It wasn't a requirement for shipping the tablet, but a requirement to campaign and the backers for reaching it. To back out from that would be another semi scam.

I contributed to reach 3G but yeah that is something jolla can skip even though we reached it and the CTO said before campaign is over that It won't come with 3G so they used a stretch goal they had no intention to honor.

strongm 2016-01-18 09:05
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495279)
it must be done before Jolla can say OS is done.
You can't have it both ways, Dave.

By which I mean you can't complain that IGG campaign money was (fraudulently) spent on the OS rather than directly on the tablet if at the same time you are going to complain that the tablet OS is incomplete ...

Dave999 2016-01-18 09:19
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strongm (Post 1495282)
You can't have it both ways, Dave.

By which I mean you can't complain that IGG campaign money was (fraudulently) spent on the OS rather than directly on the tablet if at the same time you are going to complain that the tablet OS is incomplete ...
And I didn't. If you read what I wrote. Split screen can come later as long as it comes.

strongm 2016-01-18 09:31
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
So quick to move the goalposts. If the stretch goal was achieved then surely it should be delivered?

Or have you now decided it is OK if some perks were to be delivered whenever Jolla fancy? And if so, who gets to decide which ones?

Dave999 2016-01-18 09:58
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strongm (Post 1495284)
So quick to move the goalposts. If the stretch goal was achieved then surely it should be delivered?

Or have you now decided it is OK if some perks were to be delivered whenever Jolla fancy? And if so, who gets to decide which ones?
Becouse Jolla stated it would come later in an update?

So tablet in May and split screen in Q3...2015 ;)

ZogG 2016-01-18 10:01
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
In Q3 2015 update.
But there is no tablet, no update. There is OS that is somehow is ready accroding to Jolla, but what this readiness means - no one knows :)

zenecho 2016-01-18 10:56
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495228)
Perfect,
Tell me IF and when its working perfect.

"perfect" ! I dont think you could even say that with Sailfish on a Jolla Tablet?

Bundyo 2016-01-18 11:00
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1495277)
That was a stretch goal. The OS is complete. I swear somebody answered this for me a while back (can't locate it quickly) but this was not part of the deliverables.

I think.

[edit] Yep - here it starts... it was a 2.5mil stretch goal, which was not initially met and it was not brought back up on the second/extended funding - meaning it was not included and thus if it were to be come a deliverable, I'd be totally surprised.
3G was at $2.5 mm and wasn't met, split screen was lower and should be delivered, but Jolla already stated that that will be later, after the final 2.0 is available.

strongm 2016-01-18 11:11
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495288)
Becouse Jolla stated it would come later in an update?

So tablet in May and split screen in Q3...2015 ;)
At which point you are back to saying that you are happy that they can spend money on the OS for the tablet.

Dave999 2016-01-18 11:20
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strongm (Post 1495294)
At which point you are back to saying that you are happy that they can spend money on the OS for the tablet.
Only after they deliver the tablet. Yes. Probobly That's why jolla stated differance in time between tablet and the software split screen. What are you aiming for...Just regular trolling?

Maybe they should have done it with two steps. One hw campaign and then one sw with upgrades. What do you think about that?

aegis 2016-01-18 11:42
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495279)
Split screen is in the game and something jolla should honor. It was 1750000 so it must be done before Jolla can say OS is done. It wasn't a requirement for shipping the tablet, but a requirement to campaign and the backers for reaching it. To back out from that would be another semi scam.
Good luck with that. They also had SDxc card support as a goal but rapidly backed out of that even during the campaign with "because Jolla heart FOSS" as an excuse given to the believers.

JulmaHerra 2016-01-18 11:51
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1495296)
Good luck with that. They also had SDxc card support as a goal but rapidly backed out of that even during the campaign with "because Jolla heart FOSS" as an excuse given to the believers.
It was because of the huge uproar from the vocal part of community demanding that "no crowdsourced money for M$!11!1!!". To avoid yet another accusation of "not listening" to community, they decided to comply with those demands. It was kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Implementing exFAT would have been trivial (AFAIK it can already be used with small hack), hard part was the ant-MS attitude in community.

Kind of comical that even that is used against them... :)

ZogG 2016-01-18 12:24
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1495297)
It was because of the huge uproar from the vocal part of community demanding that "no crowdsourced money for M$!11!1!!". To avoid yet another accusation of "not listening" to community, they decided to comply with those demands. It was kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Implementing exFAT would have been trivial (AFAIK it can already be used with small hack), hard part was the ant-MS attitude in community.

Kind of comical that even that is used against them... :)
Not sure about the fees, but there is GPL opensource implementation of exFAT.

From the "hearing community" i think it was all the way around, they did not want to implement it and told it was coz community asked not to (otherwise why exactly this is what they actually listened to?) - but we'll never know :)

JulmaHerra 2016-01-18 12:52
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1495298)
Not sure about the fees, but there is GPL opensource implementation of exFAT.
It doesn't matter if there is an GPL implementation of it. To distribute exFAT implementation commercially you will need to pay the licensing. Alternatively one can fight in in court, but it would be rather futile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT#...ftware_patents

Quote:
From the "hearing community" i think it was all the way around, they did not want to implement it and told it was coz community asked not to (otherwise why exactly this is what they actually listened to?) - but we'll never know :)
I am not surprised that you will choose such interpretation about events. Still, I remember the fighting about the licensing both here and at TJC (I was in favor of properly licensing it for the sake of compatibility), also all the polls showed that majority of voters were against the idea of properly licensing exFAT, so in that regard it takes a bit more than you just saying that "oh they just wanted to annoy everybody and not implement it." In other words, you don't really have anything to back up your claim this time.

billranton 2016-01-18 13:25
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1495295)
Maybe they should have done it with two steps. One hw campaign and then one sw with upgrades. What do you think about that?
The HW campaign still would have required a lot of money spending on SW. Sailfish 1.x was only compatible with a small resolution mobile phone - it simply would not have run nicely on a tablet. They decided to dress up all that work as... Sailfish 2.0.

This is why it's unfair to accuse them of scamming by spending crowdfunding money on the OS. The weren't scamming - they just failed.

zenecho 2016-01-18 13:56
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1495302)
The HW campaign still would have required a lot of money spending on SW. Sailfish 1.x was only compatible with a small resolution mobile phone - it simply would not have run nicely on a tablet. They decided to dress up all that work as... Sailfish 2.0.
Fair enough, but I just find it hard when a company says we need to do all this work on the OS to bring up to 2.0 so it will work on the tablet. Who then say sorry we cant supply the tablet to you, BUT we are now going to sell/rent/reward the updated OS version 2.0!

I do not understand how Jolla can keep running as a company and just wash their hands of the Tablet?

I personally feel I have been taken for a ride and Jolla will do the OBSOLETE minimum they feel they have to do in regards to the Tablet without jeopardizing the selling/hire/reward of the OS

aegis 2016-01-18 14:13
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1495297)
It was because of the huge uproar from the vocal part of community demanding that "no crowdsourced money for M$!11!1!!". To avoid yet another accusation of "not listening" to community, they decided to comply with those demands. It was kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Implementing exFAT would have been trivial (AFAIK it can already be used with small hack), hard part was the ant-MS attitude in community.
That's the way it was spun externally, yes.

Like many things on together.jolla.com - it's apparently the community that decides. But if that were so, we'd have decent maps, a properly working CalDAV, EAP wifi, SIP and all the other things that are at the top of the voting list and have been for 2 years+.

It's not difficult - they just had to look at the N9 and better it or at least MATCH it and they are still not even close.

Instead we got changelogs full of upstream bug fixes and UI re-arranging. The big thing in 2.0 was UI device scalability which was spun as being necessary for the tablet. It was of course necessary for any phone other than the original Jolla too. It begs the question "Who thought missing that in 0.x beta was a good idea?"

I know there was a race to get the phone out but seriously, who doesn't design in scalability from the start these days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1495297)
Kind of comical that even that is used against them... :)
I think the word you're looking for is "omnishambles".

billranton 2016-01-18 14:27
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1495306)
Like many things on together.jolla.com - it's apparently the community that decides. But if that were so, we'd have decent maps, a properly working CalDAV, EAP wifi, SIP and all the other things that are at the top of the voting list and have been for 2 years+.

It's not difficult - they just had to look at the N9 and better it or at least MATCH it and they are still not even close.
No, it's the resources that decide. All of those things that you listed are expensive and/or labour intensive. Nokia had a huge horde of developers, and near bottomless pockets. You just can't expect a startup to react that quickly. Look at iOS and Android at 2 years old, and see how many key features they were lacking.

JulmaHerra 2016-01-18 14:34
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1495306)
Like many things on together.jolla.com - it's apparently the community that decides.
As I mentioned: damend if you do, damned if you don't.

Quote:
It's not difficult - they just had to look at the N9 and better it or at least MATCH it and they are still not even close.
Including Nokia's proprietary bits they didn't have access to in the first place? :)

Quote:
I know there was a race to get the phone out but seriously, who doesn't design in scalability from the start these days?
He who doesn't have the luxury of having enough time and resources for everything, and the one who doesn't at that specific moment have more than one device to support. Mind you that the whole UI was rewritten in about six months because of loss of NovaThor SoC. It meant:

- changing from X to Wayland
- changing Qt4 to Qt5 unstable, writing and backporting quite a lot to it and then updating to stable release, which was painful
- Writing libhybris to accommodate lack of native drivers available
- Redesing the device for another SoC

So, it's easy to see that during that time scalability was not the top priority. The easiest part is to say "I would have done it otherwise." But the thing is: you weren't there. You didn't do the decisions and you don't even know most of the background behind decisions made.

Ane yes, I know already that everything I just mentioned will be dismissed as "excuses." It doesn't matter any longer what, why and how anything has been done, as the main objective seems to be bashing everything just for the sake of doing it.

strongm 2016-01-18 14:45
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1495309)
Look at iOS and Android at 2 years old
So what? This isn't the same market any more. Entry requirements are higher. Or it requires that the new entrant do something so well or so disruptively that a more general failure to meet current expectations becomes moot.

ZogG 2016-01-18 14:52
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strongm (Post 1495312)
So what? This isn't the same market any more. Entry requirements are higher. Or it requires that the new entrant do something so well or so disruptively that a more general failure to meet current expectations becomes moot.
Meh, why compare with iOS or Android at age 2 years old, let's compare with Nokia 3310 at day one :)

ZogG 2016-01-18 14:53
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1495310)
As I mentioned: damend if you do, damned if you don't.



Including Nokia's proprietary bits they didn't have access to in the first place? :)



He who doesn't have the luxury of having enough time and resources for everything, and the one who doesn't at that specific moment have more than one device to support. Mind you that the whole UI was rewritten in about six months because of loss of NovaThor SoC. It meant:

- changing from X to Wayland
- changing Qt4 to Qt5 unstable, writing and backporting quite a lot to it and then updating to stable release, which was painful
- Writing libhybris to accommodate lack of native drivers available
- Redesing the device for another SoC

So, it's easy to see that during that time scalability was not the top priority. The easiest part is to say "I would have done it otherwise." But the thing is: you weren't there. You didn't do the decisions and you don't even know most of the background behind decisions made.

Ane yes, I know already that everything I just mentioned will be dismissed as "excuses." It doesn't matter any longer what, why and how anything has been done, as the main objective seems to be bashing everything just for the sake of doing it.
If you need to rewrite whole UI because of HW - you doing something terribly wrong and you would spend a lot of time and money for each device adaptation ;P

billranton 2016-01-18 14:54
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strongm (Post 1495312)
So what? This isn't the same market any more. Entry requirements are higher. Or it requires that the new entrant do something so well or so disruptively that a more general failure to meet current expectations becomes moot.
So what? So they can't afford to do that like Apple and Google can. Their choice is to either progress at a slower pace, using existing free software where they can, or not bother. I'm glad they tried, and are still trying, and will forgive them a little tardiness in getting EAP and SIP done, because no one else is meeting my current expectations in a mobile OS.

mscion 2016-01-18 14:57
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
So... is Jolla still going to announce its plan concerning tablets this week? If so, any idea what day they plan to do it.

Jedibeeftrix 2016-01-18 15:00
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
anyone dare to hope that the 'solution' to the tablet problem will be announced at MWC.... when the Intex device is launched?

Would be happy to receive a (modern) Sailfish phone instead.

gerbick 2016-01-18 15:04
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZogG (Post 1495315)
If you need to rewrite whole UI because of HW - you doing something terribly wrong and you would spend a lot of time and money for each device adaptation
Gonna have to disagree here actually.

In my experience, there's a lot of factors that determine how you paint the UI to the screen. And if you have only one target, you tend to scale to only one target. So once you add multiple targets to that - such as what was the case always for Android for instance - then you might require a rewrite.

It's not because you did something terribly wrong. Your immediate goals were just that limited. Sailfish came out only on phone, a couple of years later finally targeted a tablet, they scaled up to tablet. Done and done...

The rest is just the ongoing argument on the tablets and the lack of mass shipments.

gerbick 2016-01-18 15:05
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundyo (Post 1495293)
3G was at $2.5 mm and wasn't met, split screen was lower and should be delivered, but Jolla already stated that that will be later, after the final 2.0 is available.
I stand corrected. Split screen was 1.75 million, 3G was 2.5 million.

aegis 2016-01-18 15:11
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1495309)
No, it's the resources that decide. All of those things that you listed are expensive and/or labour intensive.
Apart from mapping, I'd disagree. But really it doesn't matter if it was true. People expect them to work in a modern smartphone and Jolla simply aren't able to allocate resources (money or people) or in some cases willing to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1495309)
Nokia had a huge horde of developers, and near bottomless pockets. You just can't expect a startup to react that quickly.
Correct. And now we know this. A company the size of Jolla can not create a modern smartphone. They need more staff or outside assistance and Jolla have neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billranton (Post 1495309)
Look at iOS and Android at 2 years old, and see how many key features they were lacking.
You can't bring a Raleigh Chopper to the Tour de France. How long are people going to make excuses about Jolla's inability to compete today? It doesn't matter how many features were lacking in iOS or Android at age 2 (hint - they had copy/paste, SIP, mapping, app stores, working calendar/contact sync) - It matters what features they have today.

pichlo 2016-01-18 15:19
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra (Post 1495297)
It was because of the huge uproar from the vocal part of community demanding that "no crowdsourced money for M$!11!1!!".
As aegis so eloquently said, they react to "huge uproars" when it suits them. Especially when it means they do not have to do something.

Quote:
Kind of comical that even that is used against them... :)
Kind of comical that some people will defend them no matter what :)

billranton 2016-01-18 15:23
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1495321)
Apart from mapping, I'd disagree. But really it doesn't matter if it was true. People expect them to work in a modern smartphone and Jolla simply aren't able to allocate resources (money or people) or in some cases willing to.
Aren't willing to? Do you have any evidence of that? Easy enough to slip into the end to cast aspersions, but I seriously doubt they ever decided against a community suggested feature without good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1495321)
Correct. And now we know this. A company the size of Jolla can not create a modern smartphone. They need more staff or outside assistance and Jolla have neither.
No, this is all just a question of time, and whether you think they've had long enough to 'finish' an OS yet. I think they're doing just fine - not that I want a 'modern smartphone' OS anyway. Windows is turning into one of those and it's horribly creepy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aegis (Post 1495321)
You can't bring a Raleigh Chopper to the Tour de France. How long are people going to make excuses about Jolla's inability to compete today?
I never thought they could compete. It's just not realistic to hope to tackle the US behemoth tech companies. Even if Jolla could invent features that they don't have, and they did, they could be replicated in a matter of weeks. All Jolla could ever hope to do was find a niche somewhere. Provide an alternative that the big boys don't want to offer.

I'd rather have a Chopper myself, and ride around the estate instead. I never fancied shaving my legs :P

ZogG 2016-01-18 15:25
Re: The Future of Jolla's Tablet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1495319)
Gonna have to disagree here actually.

In my experience, there's a lot of factors that determine how you paint the UI to the screen. And if you have only one target, you tend to scale to only one target. So once you add multiple targets to that - such as what was the case always for Android for instance - then you might require a rewrite.

It's not because you did something terribly wrong. Your immediate goals were just that limited. Sailfish came out only on phone, a couple of years later finally targeted a tablet, they scaled up to tablet. Done and done...

The rest is just the ongoing argument on the tablets and the lack of mass shipments.
Proper design is proper design(not talking about UI). It doesn't change a lot UI perspective depending on HW and it's common thing even for 12 years old "web developers". If they were planning to have only one device or same size devices it would be different. But from beginning Jolla was aiming on licensing OS to different devices, so why would they shoot in the leg and do something that will slow it.
If they have limited resources they should use them smartly so ...


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