Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

I enjoy using some penabled touchscreen art apps as well as a few other very valuable programs of that ilk ...on windows tablet xp and windows 7 ...can't stand win10 ...
But now...
DaaS is coming for the next version of windows ...
and I draw the line there.

https://www.computerworld.com/articl...u-know-it.html

I will continue to use the handful of fav progs that do work so well...
in a vm of win tablet xp and win 7 ...
But I go no further with a future in Windows...
Most of my life is Linux based ..past those few art and audio creation apps I like that windows xp tablet and win 7 has....
I feel I have transitioned a long time ago from the necessity to have windows ...

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Holy **** :eek::mad:
Lucky me I'm on Linux since years. Anyway it seems like the main direction nowadays is give away control, let others think for you.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

The main issue is that most of the harware you want, ship with windows, so we still have to pay for it even if we don’t use it :)

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Has anyone tried System76 native Linux machines? The top end laptops seem like real max power beasts, desktop CPU/GPUs in a laptop form factor; they also disable the Intel management engine by default.
https://system76.com/
Looks interesting but I have not seen what reality is.
I have been using Asus and now Asus ROG for years, but that is mostly for price and they come with Windows, I never give that a chance to boot though.
I do run virtualbox for win7 so I can run an old version of SolidWorks.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

At my work I am running win7 where I removed telemetry, other updates and removed some services (nobody knows:)). But since this month the it department will only deliver new computers with win10 and in 2020 I will be forced to use win10. I only need this bull.... for Creo Parametrics so 3D-CAD like you.
Does virualbox have a good support for 3D-graphics? And is it feasible to work with huge models and many parts?

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

You may find that "Microsoft tax" is often negative. Hardware with Windows preinstalled is cheaper than bare bone. I know purists will not like me saying that but though. Don't blame Microsoft for doing their marketing right. Blame Linux and bare bone hardware sellers for doing it wrong.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Well, finally. It fits their philosophy. I've been waiting for this switch basically since their anouncement of Office 365, which turned writing simple text documents into SaaSS [1].

:D


If you say desktop CPU, then you surely mean the Serval [2] and Bonobo [3] series.
These seem to be based on Clevo gaming barebones [4], more specifically the P75*/P77* series for the Serval, and the P87* for the Bonobo.

There are some other "manufacturers" who build laptops based on Clevo barebones, so it's worth it to keep an eye open for reviews of these other "manufacturers". One of them is Nexoc with their current G736 (P77*) [5] and G737 (P87*) [6] models.
In 2010 I was contemplating to buy one of their desktop-CPU laptops, which was basically a predecessor to the G736/737 series. Even back then Nexoc used Clevo barebones.
In the end I went for a more "traditional" 17" DTR Dell Precision M6500. My main reason being, that as far as I found out, while Clevo managed to cool the desktop components to barely tolerable levels, they apparently did that at the cost of a lot of fan noise.

Maybe that situation has improved, maybe it hasn't. But I'd be cautious to buy a laptop with desktop components. Also, the touchpads in Clevo barebones only have two mouse buttons, which I find less than optimal under Linux.


To be more precise:
You believe you've done that, respectively you've set some options that claim to disable these "features" like [7].
But how do you know it's actually doing what it says if nobody who is independent from MS even knows the source code?


[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-d...-serve.en.html
[2] https://system76.com/laptops/serval
[3] https://system76.com/laptops/bonobo
[4] http://www.clevo.com.tw/clevo_prodet...d=1073&lang=en
[5] https://www.nexoc.de/en/products/gam.../nexoc-g736iv/
[6] https://www.nexoc.de/en/products/gam.../nexoc-g737iv/
[7] https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-ma...tical-updates/

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

How do I know that any code does what it says and nothing else? Regardless of who wrote it and how open it is?

"The code is open, you can check it."

I know I can. But I have neither the time nor the capacity to inspect millions of lines of code. Literally anything can hide in plain sight. And even if I could, how can I be sure that the installed binary matches the source? And even if I could verify that, or build it from sources myself, I would still have to check the code of all the build tools in case they insert some "goodies".

"Others have checked it for you."

Have they really? Or is everyone relying on someone else doing it? And even if others had checked it for me, how can I be sure that they would share their findings with me? What if they added some goodies in, exactly because the code is open and thus allows them to do that, and are targeting me?

I am not saying that I believe any of that BS. I am not that paranoid. My point is that there is no guarantee that the code is doing what it says, regardless of whether anyone "independent from MS" has access to it or not. You do not trust Microsoft, but if you were really security conscious, you would not trust anybody.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

With a good router+software you could see the difference or spotting something weird. When you don't have the router npcap, with the right software, could be some of help.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Thanks for giving most of the answers to your questions yourself!

The code is always doing exactly what it says. That's the beauty of formal languages. The only questions are, whether you know what it says (have read the code) and actually understand what it says.
If you can't do that yourself for whatever reason, you can outsource that task to someone YOU trust. And if at some point you change your mind about the reviewer's trustworthyness, you can just task someone else with it.
That's what makes open source more trustworthy than closed source, even if you're not capable of reviewing the code yourself. YOU are the one who decides who can be trusted.

Of course, someone (trustworthy) still has to actually do that task of reviewing the code. But with OS you at least have the chance that it's actually done.
With CS you never get that chance, because even in the unlikely case that there's an external source code review happening, there's always the question lingering, under which restrictions the rewiewers got access to the code while you didn't.
So even if these reviewers come to the conclusion, that the code is clean, you can't trust that conclusion, because you have no way of verifying it independently.


That's assuming, the software is doing something weird while you're looking and you can actually distinguish the weird signal from random noise.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

yes it is a sane approach from a marketing standpoint to use a DaaS model.
but I do not like the massive control an already problematic bug and error ridden os as windows tends to be ...has always tended to be..
I do not like that thought that M$ will be in even greater control of the end product I would have to use.
If they produced and marketed a monthly pay as you go OS:
-that wouldn't be a hot mess of problems with every update
-that they didn't change and rewrite the entire OS with every passing moment so as to give a modern approach (I really hate when a OS cannot just gently and incrementally introduce change folks can adapt to ...and instead force everyone into an immediate steep learning curve ..really hate that..)
-that respected the endusers privacy and security and didn't actively compromise it.
-that didn't try to exclude the use of other OS application use (lets see just how long it takes for windows to actively exclude them..)
-that doesn't need an even more Draconian grip on everyone..

then yeah ...sure I wouldn't mind.
But we are talking about M$ here..
We are not talking about the Benevolent Gandhi Operating System Corporation

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

DaaS is not really surprising. Too bad it’s more a benefit for corporations and not for end users.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Provided you can trust the build tools. The compiler, linker, install package builder...

But yeah. Point taken. Ambiguous wording. What I meant to say was, "How do I know that any code does what its creator says it does and nothing else?"

Basically, it is just a matter of trust. You cannot go around worrying about everything and suspect everyone. You just have to trust someone. You have no choice. In fact, in every single product, from software to cars to groceries, there are many links in the chain and you have to trust every single one of them.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Indeed. And the corporations use that model because they can. Because they now have the tool. It is called, "the internet". The internet has killed the future.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

... which are all based on code too.

This part is true ...

... but that part is only true for CS.
With OS you have the choice who that "someone" is you just mentioned.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

If you want supported linux on a pc or laptop you can go the Purism route or Dell sells laptops with Ubuntu preinstalled.

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell...-laptop-ubuntu

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

We'll just have to agree to disagree, sulu. Closed or open, for all intents and purposes, they are both equally closed to me. I, personally, will never be able to review all the millions of lines of code and have to trust someone else to do it. Whether it is some developer in an air-conditioned office in Redmont or some geek living on pizza and Coke in a darkened bedroom in Windischeschenbach, they are both equally anonymous to me. I do not see much difference. You do. Good for you.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Well, that is interesting that I can save 50% of my limited budget going direct, very interesting.
Too bad I just bought an Asus with mobile CPU/GPU instead of a real full power rock crusher for $500us more..

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

The Internet was never the answer. It's merely a tool that got compromised and overtaken by greedy people.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

It should not, IMO.

I heard this so many times before in the past 25 years, still it misses the core points:

• Public source code enables others to perform (security) analysis of it, completely independent (or even unknown to) the original code authors, with methods of choice.
  That fact poses a significant threat for "special, undocumented functionality" to be detected someday (if it exists in that code), likely having an enormous impact on any business utilising that code (i.e. that is the "threat" for the company developing that software).
• Source code under FLOSS licenses allow for others to enhance that code, even if the original authors lost interest in it.
• Properly hosted public source code allows for retracting who committed which parts of the code when at any time. This transparency eases many technical and social aspects of software development.
• Properly hosted public source code is accompanied by a public bug tracker, at least publicly documenting known bugs, but usually also enabling everyone (including you and me) to file observed bugs.
  One does not need to be a coder to contribute to FLOSS!

All this (and some other more minor effects) usually lead to an environment, which I structurally trust much more than any hidden and closed software development model, even without personally knowing anybody involved in it.

P.S.: Wow, Windischeschenbach really exists. I suppose one could hardly pick a better exemplary hill-billy village in Bavaria with such a sounding name. :)

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

I have had pretty good service with buying used Dell desktops and a few Acer laptops.

The used Dell Vostro 260 desktop PC came with no O/S on it from Ebay and Linux runs great on it. All of the hardware is identified and works with Linux. I upgraded to a Asus Xonar 5.1 audio card and all I had to do is some configuration settings in ALSA and it works great.

The Ace Aspire quad core i7 laptop I am dual booting Win 7 and Linux, PClinuxOS to be specific. And all hardware works with Linux

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Very well said. It comes to my mind the Qt Company among many others, where any one can contribute, even I did some very small code contribution and the public bug tracker gives me very confidence in that company even if I didnt see all the millions lines of code.
I personally much rather use linux, but I also have to use windows for my professional frelance work, I have a windows projecad license (similar to autocad). This topic just gave the ideia to write an email to them asking for a linux version. Probably they wont do it, but I think if people start raising their hands maybe companies start to listen.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Not really. It all depends on the tools one uses to build the source into something usable;
http://wiki.c2.com/?TheKenThompsonHack

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

It's hopeless, juiceme. You can only have a dialogue with people who are willing to listen.

I never disputed the (theoretical) benefits of open source. Only the claim that those benefits are always, without fail, realized in practice.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Oh stop those FOSS wars. We are in the same camp. Push towards the light and leave the dark behind. It's not worth to convince eachother as everyone has its own set of tools in the head developed by own experiences in real life scenarios and that is why we see the world different. He has his view you have yours. Great. Lets move on and push FOSS forward ;)

As for the laptops - I use Lenovo T530 - they do their job and are the last ones without that useless for me numeric keyboard which forces me to move hands to the left and not be centered towards the screen. The most beefed up offer quad core I7 (well not that modern of course) but they do the job.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

I have seen this written before, can some one please explain to me, how a monthly pay as you go OS would stop all the update problems?

Would this not only work if everyone was running with the same hardware, same OS and were all running the same programs?

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

exactly....
and even then....
M$ has a knack for making the impossible very likely..
The problems will be worse in my guesstimation.
especially if the updates are monthly. It will be headache after headache.

along with the increased grip M$ will have on those using it, expect many devices to end up on a "list" of unusable hardware that they are not willing or do not have an "interest" in making it work on.
That I can see being a result.
There will be a perpetually updated list of new hardware that the new windows will run on, and that "list" will grow.
But the "list" of hardware that won't run nominally with the new windows will grow faster.
Fueling the forced obsolescence of hardware that much faster.
My guess.
and that I can figure will just be the tip of the iceberg.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

I like this thread. I am with pichlo about trustworthiness. But in the end I have to choose the least bad which is in my opinion Open Source. I think, that your maldoing in the code can be found and it can be traced to your account sets the bar higher for someone trying to harm. Yes, there is the KTH (which I find an interesting article, thx @juiceme) but since this applies to any system it can be disregarded for choosing between known alternatives. It can't be disregarded when discussion trustworthiness, to make that clear.

As for the original post: I am still using Win7 for work (a switch to Win10 is already in testing stage) and for private. This is because my PC from 2009 is still running and running... If I need to configure a new machine, it will be Linux with a VM for some older software I have to use or older games I like to play. Most tasks do not need Windows anymore. My whole softwarestack has changed in the last couple of years. Nowadays I use software available on both platforms.

Also I have a laptop but that is very substandard and not capable of running VMs. I bought it to perform my linux tasks like maintenance of e.g. the desktop PC of my father in law or fixing my J1 ;) It's nice for that, pre-installed Win7 was removed straight away.

Talking of my father in law: when I bought him a laptop some years ago I made sure, he used firefox thunderbird and libreoffice. So when a new machine had to be bought, I got him a nice silent desktop box running ubuntu out of the box (Solo Nanum SE22). This will be the road to go for me to, except I like to build my own machine. Not for security reasons but for the fun! And I get to choose the parts, all of them.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

To be fair, this article from what I've gathered is just clickbait fear mongering.

Windows DaaS model is for enterprises. And it can make a whole lot of sense there, where dozens or hundreds of machines may have to be kept updated. It can make sense to outsource the managing to microsoft both from quality and cost perspective.

It's not a plan to move private user's Windows to this model. Not that Microsoft wouldn't want to. But I'd imagine they're not crazy enough to think that people wouldn't abandon Windows in droves if they did that.

So basically nothing to see here. Not that I wouldn't love everyone to abandon Windows in droves. This news is just not what it purports to be.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

agreed Amboss , I too like barebones building.


Not so agreed ajalkane,
M$ currently offers Windows 10, Office 365 and its Intune device-management and security products in the form of the Microsoft 365 subscription bundle.

The aim is that specific M$ partner businesses (ie: Dell, Lenovo, etc) will be targeted and both parties (M$ and the manufacturer) will work toward a complaint structure for the new M$ desktop DaaS model. Meaning M$ is closing the field and tightening control , in this regard.
It will be ...
want to run windows?
you must have a compliant device and a subscription.
How/whether Microsoft plans to allow partners to sell the Microsoft Managed Desktop platform and add value on top of it or if Microsoft intends to sell this directly to large enterprise customers itself (or both) is the only real question remaining.

some Microsoft partners are selling what sounds a lot like this Microsoft Managed Desktop service, but under the "Modern Workplace as a Service (MWaaS) banner. Microsoft has been using "Modern Workplace" to refer to its Microsoft 365 subscription bundle and related software/services.

Just look at CompNow, an Australian education, government and business services vendor, sells a Modern Workplace package that includes a Windows device of choice, Office 365, Windows 10, Enterprise Mobility + Security, managed IT services and helpdesk, a flexible warranty all for one monthly payment, (from what the company website has to say)
https://www.compnow.com.au/mwaas/
sure that is an enterprise / business model...
but..the model works.

having the 6 month update of patches and pulls that cause chaos currently is an excellent strategy to soften and warm everyone up to a subscription model.
Already the market is prime for it.
I hear all the time here at TMO how "the latest phone is a must have ...and so-and-so is going to buy it"
People buy the latest phones on a 2 year or year or less basis.
The planned obsolescence model works.
DaaS implementation on the desktop should be trouble free as far as huge outcry.



Everyone using approved hardware that has been tested for compat.
Everyone using just 1 desktop. The same desktop on the same hardware is an easy way not only to control but an easy way to troubleshoot.
No more insanely costly support for the previous version of the OS (ie win xp, 2000, me, vista, win 7 etc... ) or even 2 previous versions whose lifespan M$ has felt obliged to support while dealing with the current one.
Due to the fact that people wish to continue using , or refuse to upgrade from, or who are too lazy too, or businesses who are still running old versions that get compromised or fail...
It is costly.
No doubt.
Madly costly I am sure.

The DaaS model is basically M$ deformed concept of a rolling release model involving the device manufacturers ...
But a paid subscription and enforced.

It will save them a lot of money.
and that is something I don't think they will ignore and continue with the "business as usual " model of the last few decades.
Long before articles such as this, the word is that win 10 will be the last of its kind.
What that meant at the time was speculation.
What is happening now is prep for implementation ...
The deets of that implementation are another matter.
But from a cost cutting view alone it is sane for M$ to be heading in this direction.

Don't sweat it...
there are other options...
I am sure that ReactOS is going to absolutely jump in new users when ..by 202? the big M$ migration occurs :D

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Endsormeans, that's just speculation at the time being. What the article refers to the current DaaS is for enterprises and indicates nothing for private customers.

I agree that such a subscription model is something that Microsoft would very much like to introduce to private customers. But considering they could lose for example half of their private customers with such a move, I'm sure they're be very careful evaluating whether such a move makes sense or not.

So... To me this is just business as usual. Microsoft doing their thing, being a corporation and all and trying to make money. I kind of would like them to force push this DaaS thing to private users, so that more people would gravitate to more freer alternatives :D. But I don't think it's going to happen in next 5-10 years.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Normally I would agree with everything you just said.
But for one thing.
that bias you speak of is from a knowledgeable and specifically educated standpoint ...of using alien OS's in compare.
Most windows users ..more than the half you mention..I am sure..will not abandon the platform.
We are talking about average run of the mill think for me please windows users..
and they will stay...change to a DaaS model of the same OS they have always used most of their lives...
is a small change ...
compared to learning and changing to a linux model and that has many scared / don't want to learn / couldn't be bothered / cannot do it ...
That there are even a viable options available.
Look at the other exemplary models tthat people cling to out of the same factors.
the iphone and android.
the majority will suck it up...and take it...and like it...
that I do foresee.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

I too think that business model will get through to private customers as well. But that means a lot of trouble. It's already become harder with UEFI but if the lockup becomes more tight with Windows 365 and alike we might get a situation similar to mobile devices. Locked up bootloaders, no drivers... no possibility to install the OS of your liking. With low market share there is no reason for manufacturers to care about them.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

exactly.
locked up anything..really only matters to people like us..who wish escape from a lack of choice..
unlocked bootloaders ...unlocked anything...mean nothing to those who neither care to leave the birdcage or don't understand they are in a birdcage to begin with.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

There are surprisingly many of them. I lost count of how many times someone wanted to keep in touch with me via Facetime.

I: "Isn't Facetime Apple specific? Your preference for Facetime limits your social circle to only other Apple users. How about something that works on any device?"

They: a blank stare.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

Seriously guys, what is the problem with Windows 10?
Seems like you guys don't know that Windows 10 has Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) and a lot of other Linux features:

It has a full blown Linux 3.4 kernel in the core of the Windows operating system, including full support for VFS, BSD Sockets, ptrace, Bash shell, and a bonafide ELF loader.

Don't just hate Microsoft of what it was.
They make a lot of good progress nowadays

Microsoft <3 Linux

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

1. Why linux as sub if you can have it as main?
2. Love as in embrace hard enough to kill?

btw: great wording. Every Windows fan feels appreciated, but others can see the sarcasm tags.

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

hahahahahahaha....
ah ..
love youse guyses...
You so funny.

I don't hate them for what they were..
actually...I do appreciate the fantastic work they did..
touch and penabled software , there are the arts and audio progs ...
but mainly that stuff is by 3rd parties..
still they really did a fab job on the structure and function for penabling.
I haven't stopped using the old art and audio progs for windows ..
doubt I ever will..
I just won't be fenced into their new paradigm ...whatever it is...
I will continue with my copies offline of xp and win 7 as I have for the last umpteen years now....

If one just stares at that one wall of windows greatness that everyone can find...whilst in the aquarium...
it isn't bad at all....
its actually pretty good..
(actually... I think that is the scenic stick-on aquarium panorama on the side of the tank I tend to look at..)

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

It's about the persistent anti-customer things they do. Their in-product adds, their dark UI patterns, their telemetry which is very hard to get rid of. And now they want even more control over your desktop by going DaaS.

About the Microsoft <3 open source: Undoubtedly I'm biased, but I believe the whole "<3 Open Source"-thing has more to do to establish a foothold than anything else. Like Google, Apple, Microsoft is large enough to keep absolute control over their open source projects. The risk of a fork of their OS projects gaining traction is zero. Meanwhile, their real moneymakers are kept closed.

In the end, for them, it's not about you, but over the control they have over you, so you won't or even can't jump ship.

At work we're MS-only (W10, O365, VS, SQL Server, etc), whereas at home I jumped to Kubuntu when Microsoft released Windows 8. So yeah, I can compare a bit. What's weird, I find the quality of Microsoft-products generally is not better or worse than FOSS alternatives. Then why pay for the privilege to be spied upon, and lose the control over your own systems?

Re: Last straw with me and continuing with Windows
 

so Azure will have a 'custom linux kernel' - if that doesn't say it all... Embrace!