New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

interesting though the fact that they skipped maemo as a reference is telling that the non-board member may not know known enough about what they already had in hand.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Possobly. Or that non in the Maemo-team had the skill and numbers to break within Nokia.

I have to read it but to me the downfall had nothing to do with the hardware or Software.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

I'll bite. What do you think caused Nokia's downfall?

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Marketing?

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

I doubt it. I think it was primarily internal politics, and secondarily not prioritizing software sufficiently. Wildly guessing, with no real information at all, I'd guess a 70% / 30% mix.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

To me it’s mainly due to vision. You need to be able to change and nokia didn’t want to change. From top management to dev teams.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Symbian did

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

For once, juiceme and Dave999 are saying the same thing.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Not really. An OS can never be blaimed. If Nokia had android at that time they would still most likely fail.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Maybe they wanted to return to making winter boots?

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Dave, Symbian was more than an OS to Nokia. It was their culture. Their way of life. Their baby. Their... precioussss. And, as juiceme correctly points out, eventually their undoing.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

the article says nokia is much smaller than in 2008, but i would say it doesn't even exist. what the author may think about is the nokia branded devices from hmd global, but those have nothing to do with nokia, except the model names.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Well, that’s still not what killed em. But yeah, if you want to make it easy. Then yeah.

But think about it. They had money, position, too many engineers and managers...and you still think an OS is the reason behind the downfall?

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Elop did that... Not symbian... Yeah, symbian was allready nearly dead but Elop shoot the final shot and after that was only downhill...

[edit]
Ofcourse Ollila was the Main reason and Most guilty... He chose his successor and big money from M$
[/edit]

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Still has almost 80000 employees so not totally nonexistent?
And have you checked the stock market, NOK is still traded so that'd prove it exists I think :D

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

So. If you removed Elop from the equation they would somehow have succeeded to fix the sinking ship?

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

I need to detail a bit more my view.
I would not say Symbian caused the downfall (I really did like to use S60 devices and modding) but the keep holding on it.
At its time it was a nice thing (hard for developer I know , but compare to SFOS developer situation ;)).
With no info on the internals (which we most likely never will get fully) it is really hard to judge...

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Im sorry but as a SFOS developer, I find this offensive to say the least.
Saying that Symbian is easier than SFOS is blasphemy right there! There's no way 2 stacks are easier than one!

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Yes, Peter. That's exactly what juiceme said. In just two words ;)

And I totally agree with tortoise. Developing in Symbian was a royal PITA.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

A PITA is not the right word. It was more like chewing through a turd each time you had to rebuild. And that happened _every_ _single_ _time_

PS : In all honesty, and with all the respect for Siilasmaa and more pertinently towards the topic, he's not much better as he's trying to portray himself as. He sold all of it to M$ anyways.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

What seems apparent to me after reading and reading and reading ...and then reading some more...
and what we all understand from being on the maemo receiving end of things...
and of course being able to view the issue from outside looking in...

The business execs were doing exactly what they were good at.
Being business execs.
Looking out for their own asses, pushing agendas, enacting internal coups, back biting, back stabbing, starving one another of the ability to focus on issues at hand....
Oh the list goes on.

The author plainly has opened a small window, onto the panorama unfolding, and thinks himself separate from it...but that is the furthest thing from the truth.

They all did well to do everything possible...BUT show solidarity to a vision and stick to it, and work together, and achieve and maintain it.
Else Iphone and Android wouldn't have stood a chance.
And Nokia would still be at the forefront.

They were absolutely perfect executives.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

IMHO if Elop had not been there the downfall would be slower and they might had a chance/time to change and keep the market.
There has been plans for more flagships with MAEMO to come out, but Elop cut them off and fired the whole team.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Not likley. Symbian was too old and maemo/meeego/peego and feego diden’t share an ecosystem. Every phone on it’s own.

They might survived another year or so but the stock value would be just as bad. Bleeding money. Now they had Microsoft to keep the money flow at least.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Another thing I would like to understand is why wasn't the n9 sold in the US. At the time I thought it was far better than what Apple had to offer. It still has a better user interface than any android phone out there.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

You are right.
This is what not I wanted to express. Sorry for my analogy.

I just had in mind the blocking of apps due to store restrictions and qt versions and non-existence of paid apps and ...

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

So this seems like peterleinchen is trying the endsormeans way? ;)

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

hahahahahahaha
Far better to over explain anyway Peter...
thorough explanation for the "slow" folks ...helps their digestion...
(and never ever ever ever never ever apologise for an analogy...
Analogies are great and expressive...use them often...)

2 word answers are always interpretation messy...
especially here...

"A Maemo Talk Forum 2-word Answer" ...
is the equivalent of handing an auditorium full of epileptics shotguns, at a party with only strobe lighting....
it just becomes an open turkey-shoot .
(how is that for an analogy?... Can't get that kind of imagery with 2 words...and it of course becomes a mindworm and the imagery is stuck in everyone's head.)

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

THIS!!!

I am surprised how few people see this. Android may have its own share of design faults, but none nearly as idiotic as this. You can still run an Android 2 application on Android 9. The same, more or less, applies to Windows. But Nokia and now Jolla, in their infinite stupidity, think they know better.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

You are implying no ecosystem = no future. But if that'd be true, how comes android made it? And iOS? They didnt happen to have an ecosystem when they started as well. Nokia had Ovi Store, at the time the biggest (symbian-based) ecosystem. All the prerogatives for an ecosystem which would have included Meego devices were there.

Also, keep in mind meego was supposed to have a big rollout, whereas Maemo were all experimental devices.
From my perspective, there's more technical issues here:

a) the skitzophrenic qt / meego split
N9 was hailed by nokia for Qt, *not* meego. But meego was *there*, on the n9, and working just fine! I guess this was the best patch Nokia could come up for the to-be ecosystem solution with symbian (qt "portability"). This confused message disoriented developers quite a bit IMO. Throw in the complexity of the platform api's (a.k.a. linux) on top, the non-native look-and-feel of the Qt Apps vs the native-looking Meego apps, and you have a beautiful disaster. All the tools were there for both worlds (qt & meego). but which one to use? no clear development path or guidelines (cause of marketing reasons as they had to push qt!), no clear toolkit choice. I mean, the phone was sold as a MeeGo Device, but Nokia was pushing the Qt toolkit for it! What a clusterf*ck for God's sake!
Developers had been promised " no more two stacks!" by Nokia, instead they got two toolkits :D. They were promised "a linux-based device", but in reality they were meant to build Qt-(and aegis) based applications (keep in mind meego was also qt-based)...do you see where this is going?

b) the idiotic rollback of the marketing, by denying the product to be actually shipped in key countries like US. Nokia could have betted more on the UI (which is what the n9 excelled at). Yes, the development experience was flaky, but come on, the first iphone was very limited too! Bottom line they had a product, with a valid UI, which they didnt trust in, and got cold feet. And thinking about point a), no wonder I'd say! It would have taken a leap of faith and a full commitment, but in reality, instead of jumping in the cold and dark waters, Elop stayed on the platform, and burnt down with it.

And about app support/sustainability in Jolla, speak for yourself. At least quickbar has been working fine for many releases now, with no need for updates in quite some time (im surprised myself) - in harbour. I would not be surprised for patches not to work the same way.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Wasn't the most important factor Symbian being Nokias cashcow? That is what gave management justification to neglect other inhouse developments until all trains to successfully shift away from symbian had left the station in 2008.

In my interpretation, Nokia failed from its past success and not being able to turn its ships crusted steering wheel when they finally realized the size of the iceberg.

Timing was key imo. There had been a short window in 2006-2007 to realize the impact that Apple would make by turning the game from business and nerd tech into some awkward NLP inspired mind control like emotion based thingy. Nokia Board had a leaked iPhone on the table according to another book i read but did not draw the right conclusions or just could not comprehend completely at the time. Which is admittedly really hard to judge from the pure device without knowing the strategy behind it i guess.
Don't know if Google board was genius or lucky but they where able to hit the market with a competitive product, slamming into the low price segment Apple "left for them" with full financial force.
Elop was just a symptom of Nokia Board grabbing for the last weathered straw imo.

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Hahahahahaaaaaa
I liked your post pichlo...
and I loved your reason for deletion better.

Well perhaps someone will do just that...
learn from all the nightmare of past hubris ...
and make a plain old debian compatible phone.
THAT would probably do the trick.

If we get a million squirrels (they are cheaper than monkeys...)
sitting at monitors ....
typing away random code ...
sooner or later ...
we will get a linux based phone OS that will actually work...

I call dibs on "Rodenux" ...for the name....

Re: New book on Nokia's post0iPhone implosion
 

Imho latest Symbian versions were not inferior in any way from iPhone or android at the time, I had a Nokia C7 ambassador device and it was handsome. Developing with Qt was a nice experience (I never used carbide c++, wich lots of people speak bad about it.) Meego was just a handsome device and the UI was the best at the time.

What killed Nokia was the bad management from the board and especially from Elop who went with MS OS.

The burning plataform memo hurt Nokia really bad, for real, I read at the time people saying that their companies stop buying Nokias for corporate bussines, because they didnt want to buy phones with a dead end OS.

When N950 come out, I also read about development companies who were really angry because Nokia wouldnt sell them. Nokia N9 was a beauty, and Nokia refused to sell it to major markets, altought people want it. I read about a guy wanting a symbian pureview and Nokia not selling it in his country.
How is all this not bad management not give the customers what they want ? :mad:

Up until today I have never bought a app outside Ovi, because in Ovi I could pay using the operator service. In android I dont want to put my credit card there. Eventually Ovi store was shutdown, because the plan was to give all up to MS, are you kidding me? :eek:

Elop said it went with MS so that Nokia could inovate and diferentiate itself from the competition. How the heck one does that with a closed proprietary OS like Windows ? Even Android was much more suited for that becase it was opensource.

Nokia was struggling to sell the symbians, the Windows phones, eventually they release those Nokia X androids, I remember reading that they were selling not so bad, and then they killed it again. They did everything wrong.

Rumor has it they were developing Meltemi for low end phones, then cancel it just a few weeks from that being ready to ship, because the money run out. If true, how is all this not bad management ? And they blame iPhone for Nokia fall :confused: ?