Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

Since by and large my post went ignored and folks have gone back to their opposing views on the topics.
This post and accompanying poll are obviously needed for the following reasons.

I can commiserate with folks on both sides of the fence concerning start ups.

- I think its great that our forum is a place for discussion on new technologies, new products, a place where start ups can inform us of their work, give us their timely updates on progress here, and a platform to promote their work.

- I don't think its great the number of accrued free floating corpses of start ups we have throughout the forum, nor the fact that our forum is being used as a recruitment platform to acquire start up funds from either members or guests or diverted to their own website project pages to solicit funds there.
- with ZERO disclaimers of forum liability posted or warnings to investors that for legitimate, unforeseen or mismanaged reasons they may lose their investments.
- nor the fact that discussions in these threads spread throughout the forum in general have increased a level of "upset" on both sides of the topic pertaining to the start up in question, creating the perfect conditions for toxicity to build.

In a perfect world no regulating would be necessary.
But for the sanity of the community:

- to avoid a minimum of bad blood

- to keep the upset of members to a minimum, concerning the topic

- to keep the upset of spokespeople and teams from Start Ups to a minimum, concerning the topic

- to segregate these forum scattered threads from bleeding toxicity concerning the topics, into the community at large.
- a scattered mess in the forum of (some) successful ventures, and (the majority) "coming soon" or stalled for ~nth amount of time or vapor or abandoned or finally cancelled due to whatever circumstances.

- to segregate these forum scattered threads from bleeding toxicity concerning the topics, into the community at large.

- to make sure that liability disclaimers are clearly and prominently posted so as to absolve Talk Maemo.org from any possibility of legal action, since it is Talk Maemo.org endorsing by allowing these start ups..(whether well-meaning or vaporware bait) forum access and use of this place as a platform to directly fund raise, acquire funds or link to their project sites to do the same and lure members and guests away from here.

And lastly
- to segregate these forum scattered threads, topics and posts from bleeding toxicity concerning the nature of said topics, into the community at large.


A poll to act upon , or not, according to the majority of votes.

NOTE PLEASE:
The issue isn't about being "for" or "against" start-ups

concerning the issue of our Talk Maemo.org's possible legal issues concerning liability for these start ups.
if nothing is done concerning this issue, to tie up this "loose end" ,
then sooner or later something is bound to happen.

if nothing is done to try and contain and place all start up conversation into a designated subforum of their own where only there, can they discuss the issue, away from the forum at large, the toxicity surrounding conversation on the subject matter of the start ups will bleed as it is now, into the rest of the forum.

This is a sober and serious issue which can ruin this place.
and something needs to be done.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with a poll)
 

Dear endsormeans I assume you are referring to this post: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...postcount=1089

I must admit, that I haven't read it, just like so many other posts of you. :o

I assume you are a native English speaker. And probably that's part of my problem. I don't read most of your posts, because it is very hard for me to follow. Even so I think that my English isn't that bad, it seems not to be good enough.

Anyway, having problems with reading and understanding your posts isn't your problem, but mine, as long as you don't ask for something important.

But after I have read (or at least tried to) this post, It seems, that you see some legal Issues in talking about start ups. Even so I don't see this legal issues, I think this is an important thing. Especially because i might be wrong and there are legal problems.

So I would like to ask you, if there are matters which are of concern, to keep your posts shorter and your language simple enough for forum members which are not native speakers.

Please don't get it wrong, this is no offense in any way, but a polite and sincere request!

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

hahaha...
No worries Fell
My posts tend to be long for thorough explanation and so misinterpretation and upset doesn't happen.
And you have a very valid point. Many folks aren't native English readers and writers.
I will try to keep writing not "simpler" (since I think all here are hardly that) but um...cleaner?..less verbiage in a different language (English) than many here speak? ..blunter?
I hope that will help.

And Fell...
you do yourself a disservice..
your English is fine...

and no offense was taken at all,

Fact is, everyone's English here is pretty darn good.
To the point I forget ALL the time, that it isn't the 1st language of everyone here.
So I end up writing like I am talking to people raised on English who get every nuance of the language.
My bad.
:D

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I second Fellfrosch's post in all accounts and although I can't be certain, I assume just from his user name that he's a native German speaker too. So maybe it's a cultural thing.

In Germany we have the urban legend, that in the US you can't sell a microwave without advising the buyer in the manual to not put living hamsters in it, because otherwise he'll sue you for having killed his pet.
It's an expression of our general perception, that in the US things have to be regulated by laws that we deem matters of course.

Now, I know you're not from the US, but maybe it's a North American thing. I can't tell from this side of the Atlantic.

From my (and probably also Fellfrosch's) POV, it is a matter of course that investing in startups comes at a certain risk.
And while I find it totally appropriate to inform people about that risk, especially those who may have no experience in that regard, I don't feel a need to have that formalized in any way (disclaimer threads, special subforums, all the moderator's work this causes).
That doesn't mean I'd be opposed to the idea. I just think, the ends don't justify the means. ;)

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

My view is one of restraint thus far.
and my vote was a challenge for me.
Rationally I think these issues should be looked into properly to avoid calamity.
And voted so.

Wasn't easy since my gut tells me that concerning this potential nightmare to..
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/dccc25d...1jP7cTbNE.copy
:D

and vote for immediate segregation before something does happen, on the grounds of "toxicity containment" and for our own "due diligence" in proper disclaimers warning members and guests and thus relieve ourselves utterly from any legal liability ...
to protect our community

And yes...
It isn't just an American issue with suing (though they are among the worst nations for it).
There are limits and constraints in Canada to legally pursuing others. It isn't the wild west here. Within reason, people and organizations can be sued for just cause though....depending on the situation.

And TBH the proliferation of countries and peoples that pursue lawsuits suing ...isn't just a North American issue either.

The laws may be different for the E.U. , but there must be some issue of forum responsibility and legality for the posters it allows and their content, otherwise why is the E.U. going after all the social media platforms and holding them directly responsible for the posters they have?
Isn't that the current mandate of the E.U. right now?
Holding the platforms responsible for the posters and their posters content?
I have been following the issue and I know it isn't just about the E.U. holding platforms accountable for copywrit content , but covers a wide range of reasons and issues.
Is our forum somehow immune?
Do we have magic underwear that protects our forum from the E.U. commission descending on it at any time and telling us to enforce their requirements?
I haven't even heard of such discussion out of our members concerning the E.U. commission enforcement agenda, and making sure we comply.
THAT is yet another forum issue that seems to have blindly flown under our collective radar, that we should be discussing and debating and discovering where other possible "weak points" in our forum need addressing, and possibly rectifying.

In short.
We need to be wise and canny and be proactive, really look at our (now) multiple issues... before possible calamity strikes.
Being reactive may be too little too late,
too costly,
or take too much manpower for us to cope with ..
for our small community to handle.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I don't really see the point. The social media platforms are getting problems, when there are - as you have written - copyright violations, or when there is hate speech or when they violate data protection rules (which they do all the time). But what has that to do with a discussion about a start up and it's product? Where are the legal traps?

@sulu you assumed right ;)

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I don't know?
There may very well be...or may very well not be any issue.
Are you so certain?
You have studied the legalease of the issue and can say with certainty that there is no fear of community liability?
Or for that matter.. of an E.U. commission walking in and finding fault that we haven't even considered ...because NO ONE has even brought the topic up here for scrutiny before?
To my understanding these issues have never been raised .
Is it not worth the attention to find out?
Or are you just "that" certain on topics never considered here.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

Who exactly would be held liable? The council? Maemo Community e.V.? I think all of your questions should be directed at either, or both, if they still exist. Both entities have been inactive for quite some time. Council elections for periods Q2 2018 and Q1 2019 never occurred. We seem to have been abandoned by the powers that be.

I'm not sure if we need disclaimers or if anyone can be sued, but I do agree with many of the points raised by endsormeans. There are problems on TMO that could be addressed, "for the sanity of the community", if you will. I'm all for a good debate but it's got to the point where insults and sarky comments have become a regular occurrence. Pointless infighting seems to be the norm now, and it's not just limited to start-up related threads. Not naming any names, the situation isn't helped by the fact that some of the instigators of this behaviour are forum moderators, which renders the "Report This post" button useless. An increasing number of threads these days are a waste of time because they are just filled with speculation, pointless bickering and the like. I'm quite bored of the TMO of late to be honest and I'm sure others probably are too. It's only a matter of time before people stop visiting and this forum is reduced to nothing.

EDIT: Just to be clear, banter and humour are fine, I've no problems with that. The more, the better!

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

That is a disturbing issue unto itself.
concerning the entities who are to run this place...
And yes...inevitably they should be involved in studying and answering such questions pertinent to our continued existence.

I have only noticed the severity of the nastiness in the start up discussions, and haven't really examined other areas here ..
It seemed more prominent to me in that field of interest.
I now will be looking about in other threads for such behaviour...
I am relieved in only the fact that it isn't just myself noticing this behaviour...otherwise I would rather be completely wrong and believe everyone is getting along fine.
But I see the world at large pressing in here at TMO
In the form of the contagion plaguing the planet now.
The lack of civility toward one another.
The inability of social graces.
"civilization" is built upon the foundation of civil behaviour of people to one another.
And that is disappearing from this world at a very rapid rate.
If folks grandparents (and for the younger people their great grandparents) were around today, they would be telling many of them to mind their tongues, behave, show some dignity, restraint, allowance for others their opinion, think before they speak what their words will result in.
But I think many nowadays never grew up with what used to be called "good manners" , and instead grew up being told to speak their mind before thinking through the ramifications of their words.
I think wicket that if it is as pervasive throughout the forum as you say, then TMO is a microcosm of the same worldly problems today.
If such is the case.
And if it cannot be stamped out ..and proper dialogue and proper conversation cannot be made the standard the way it should be.
Then ...even though I dislike the fact that it would mean fewer folks in the forum, perhaps a more severe segregation ..of the forum is an answer if the toxicity issues cannot be rectified.
such as division of the forum...a hard separation ..
Maemo oriented devices, os's, software and discussion ranging from the 770 to the n9 and os's ranging from the first to the most recent maemo leste.
On one side of the TMO fence
and on the other ..all else.
Or at worst purge all else...other than Maemo oriented discussion.
The sub forums, the threads the posts, that have no maemo relation.
make the place Talk Maemo in actuality.
That may flush out the worst behaviour if there isn't a platform for it.

Have you noticed in maemo specific oriented threads any of this behaviour ...wicket?
Or have you noticed this only in topics other than maemo?
Or have you noticed it in both?

I am curious all around concerning the issue...
I would like to understand it better, and figure out a way of dealing with it before our place here is in jeopardy .

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

Now that you mention it, it mostly occurs in Jolla/Sailfish related threads and it's normally the same usual suspects. There is overlap though. Some of them cross the border and venture into Maemo and other threads. The Purism thread springs to mind.

Here's an example of a non start-up thread (Sailfish related):

https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=100638

What a way to welcome a new member! Someone simply trying to sell something, followed by a flurry of posts, criticising, some even insulting. Even after I pointed this out, the trolling didn't stop. Thankfully tommo summed it up perfectly.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

hm...
well that was interesting.
yes ...the guys could have handled that a little more diplomatically.
Sure the fellow was asking an exorbitant sum, but that is his right to do so.
But the fellas could have handled it better, in the end it even drove the op to lash out rudely.

Interestingly, I have a good long list of folks on my ignore list.
Folks who have in the past exhibited behaviour that isn't changing but have been reliably and consistently rude.
I figured it the best way to deal with them.

The thing is though, it doesn't solve the problems of the forum, merely masks them by putting blinders on. So I have no idea what is going on with the uglier half of the forums posts.

It isn't really an answer or solution, not even a stop gap.

If councils and moderators are suffering from community ennui, are tired, or the place is so bloody huge an unwieldy now that it is difficult to manage, or are having a hard time for whatever reason ..in doing their duties, then we need to address that first, and then we have the ability to get this place sorted out.

Otherwise ..if we have no oversight, no management, then it is not a good sign. And things will only get worse.

As you said wicket, it is heading to the place where coming here isn't on the top of the "I really want to be here" list.

If the councils and moderators cannot do the job.
Then perhaps a forum schism is necessary.
or at worst
a forum wide purge of everything not maemo and clean this place up.
and continue with the mandate of this being "Talk Maemo".

But I will be damned before this place is taken over by rude and ignorant upstarts, whose interests have nothing to do with maemo whatsoever, and who should be reminded that they and their subject matter have been here under "sufferance" and a wish by the maemo community to be inclusive.

Point blank.
I think everyone here knows I have our community's interests at heart.

Whoever has them,
Give me the keys to the place for 30 minutes.
I will clean this place up.
As well, the implementing of a "3 strikes" , regardless of elapsed time between offences, or whether or not it occurred in the same thread ,
then a temp. banning, followed by a permanent banning for offenders who don't get the hint if they continue, that "civil" and kind behaviour is mandatory here.
Rooted member "behavioural issues" have no place here.
They should be seeking "professional help" outside of this forum in their personal life for their issues and get them dealt with,
before coming here to poison this place.

We may get fewer folks coming and going, possibly.
But they will be here to talk about what the forum was originally mandated for, topics on Maemo and devices that run the os's.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

If I remember correctly you were once, no, twice actually offered "the keys" but you did decline the offer back then.
No problem really, it might well be that you'll have the chance to go at that again one of these days. :D

About the vote itself, nice idea but I currently don't see any need for urgent action, hence voted "no change"
I rather enjoy the yummy popcorn while following the drama.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

let's not turn this to another #metoo place, please.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

@ juice
I was on the ballot twice I think, but not voted to council.
Consecutive times afterwards I think I was nominated but turned that down since then.
I wasn't offered any keys per se.


#metoo, Social Justice Warriors, and Political Correctness are modern day abominations.

I am speaking of what every human being should have been taught as a child.
Civility.
Manners.
Restraint.
Compassion.
Thinking before speaking.

I half expected someone trying to paint with a broad brush and raise the spectre of the extremist agendas.
No one should try lumping standards of civil behaviour in with agendas by extremists.


It may be a moot point anyway, since it very well can end up that a majority of voters here view that there are no problems.
I have no problem abiding by that decision.
I am all for "business as usual"
Just makes it easier for me, then I don't need to spend my time or effort on a topic that isn't considered a problem here.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I think that bringing this up, lifting on the table, putting eyes on it publicly, may have already done the job. I would suggest not to do anything but just see how things develop from here. So it was very neccessary to make this vote thing with real options cause it has made people to think and now in every subconscious there is a small red flag on the matter. I believe what should be done, has been done - possibly and probably.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I have brought attention to topics.
Nothing more.
Whether anything is going to be done is a completely other matter.
Nothing has been done yet, nothing may be done.
Saying otherwise is not accurate

one thing for certain is...
though I would love there to be no problems with our forum and vote that way.
and though my gut tells me that behaviour has been sliding and will get worse and worse unless these issues are addressed, and the issue of free floating start ups with no regulating need to be properly dealt with to the degree of containment at least, if not more serious methods.

It seems the option of at least prudently looking and studying the forums varied issues.. and going from there to decide on a course of action or not ...depending on consensus .
Is the least popular
and seems to only have one vote so far..
mine,
and though it seemed the most logical choice ,
it wasn't easy to vote so...

So far ..it appears to be shaping up to be an issue that is divided .

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I didn't actually vote in the poll because I don't think the problem is only related to start-ups and I don't think there is a liability issue. There is a general behaviour issue with certain people frequently breaching the Maemo Code of Conduct and some will see TMO as an unpleasant place to visit. I personally don't know what the solution should be; that should be for the council to decide. I think they should also evaluate whether the forum moderators are fit to continue.

I don't see this turning into a #metoo. It might seem that endsormeans or myself are being too dramatic, and some may find the squabbles and insults entertaining, but it may not be all fun and games for the person on the receiving end. The way I see it is simple. There's a Code of Conduct, it should be followed. If not, then what's the point of its existence? Let all run riot and let hell break loose.

I hope Maemish is right and nothing else will need to be done. Time will tell.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I lumped a few unrelated and cross-over issues into the same poll.
Under the rough umbrella of the need for us to talk about the disparate issues and allow for the councils and Mods to understand better whatever decided direction to pursue, in dealing with the issues.

There will always be friction, banter back and forth,
and that is fine.
I am all for good wit and argument ..pull out the popcorn.

But when hurtful things are said that in their intent are meant to wound, when civility and manners break down utterly
That is another
Grown ups calm down, apologise if they said anything hurtful, and forgive one another.
I don't see that in most of the nastiness I have seen over the last while now.
Uncouth behaviour to downright rude and nasty offensive remorseless folks have always thrived and relied on the hope it's just in people's heads, all in their minds, and that people won't do anything because "mentioning it may be enough".
No wicket.
You and Maemish have just finished convincing me that my vote was utterly wrong and my attempt at a balanced approach ridiculous.
When one has a vermin problem in the house, one doesn't decide to scrutinize and debate the ethical and philosophical logic of the issue or on a metaphysical level that the vermin "aren't actually in the house at all and don't exist" ..
while the vermin tear the house apart.

Sure if some "feel" there is no Start up issue of proliferation throughout the forum and that it is unregulated
That is fine.
"Feeling So" versus documenting the number of these varied threads is needed.
And as you pointed out wicket, the example of behaviour that was uncalled for.
The record of this unchecked behaviour litters this place.

And as for the behavioural issues here..
"feeling" that there are no problems doesn't come close to the tangible proof in the number of posts and threads that exist,
their exact content written by the hand of the offending posters ,
which you mentioned violates our code of conduct ,
and are unrepentant in their behaviour and offered no apology,
stand in stark legible contrast to "feeling" there is no behavioural problem.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

@endso you might be correct.

The fact that I have not been target of bad behaviour might cloud my judgement on this. Feeling of hurt is subjective and it is very difficult for someone not on the line of fire to feel what it's like.

Also at the same time I'd like to apologise if someone feels I have offended them.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

you like pichlo or myself, are not the best of targets, since we speak up and in most colourful ways.
It isn't something regular directed or including us, so we wouldn't notice it.
Likewise, in the past, resolution of differences is key.
working things out, sorting out misinterpretations, misunderstandings, apologies, etc. is ...well...being a responsible human being.
And reflecting on the past wondering if one has offended someone and it was left unresolved is as natural a feeling as wondering if one left the stove on.
So don't mull on that juiceme.
it is after all... a two way street and one can meet another half way on it, speak up and speak their mind, and tell you, or me or whomever, their hurt.
It isn't all on you ....or me...or whomever.
Likewise...I cannot help but wonder,
if I offended any, and it were left that hurt still lay there for the other,
I would hope they would speak up and get it out of their system. Nothing like clearing the air ..so to speak.
As for myself, any wound given me, is forgiven and forgotten.
I think it is perfectly normal to hurt another whether in the heat of the moment of impassioned argument, or normal human thoughtlessness , or by misinterpreting.
It is how the incident is resolved in the end that counts most.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I've got to say, I don't think the situation has improved at all. It's got to the point where you if you contribute something, someone will find a way to tear it apart. Nothing serious, but I'm just bored of it to be frank. The Maemo Code of Conduct is regularly ignored by many forum members, the council is nowhere to be seen. All that's left is perhaps one active moderator who finds it necessary to assert his authority as he likes.

Dave999 hasn't been seen for few weeks now. It seems to me he was forced to leave TMO. I know he upset people in the past, and perhaps he earned himself a reputation, but some people here have condemned him for eternity. As far as I could tell, he mostly behaved himself as of late, and his last few posts did not warrant that kind of threat. Sure he likes to talk a lot, but I've seen other members who have been way more disruptive.

Other prominent members have also not been seen lately. I can't really blame them for leaving, this place is becoming more and more hostile by the minute. I think I'm done too. I don't think this forum represents free software values any more, and intelligent debates are long gone. Consider this a goodbye. I'll be around due to my interest in truly free mobile operating systems, and will continue to contribute to Maemo Leste, but that community mostly resides on IRC. That said, there may be a need to post here occasionally for something Maemo Leste related, but otherwise I'm done with this forum.

Chao!

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

What the heck?

Have I been out of the loop?
Dave is gone?
I thought he was just busy...or didn't have much to say...
I haven't been following most of the goings on here..
A couple of threads at best.
Dave seemed fine to me...
He had valid grievances about Jolla ...
But that was long ago...
Dave told to go?
By whom?
Who sanctioned this?
I would like to know what spurred this..
I'll get a hold of him as well....

It has been quiet from quite a number of folks...
Didn't know they were gone though.

And you going wicket?
That is not good.
don't let folks deter you man...
Upstarts come and go...
Being a positive presence here is important.
Without that...well...definitely no good will come of decent folks leaving.

I would like to see these offending posts and threads...
Tell the buggers to smarten the hell up.
Or get the hell out.

I need to sit down the next few nights and read over some threads it seems.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

"Hostile"? Seriously? I was just thinking how mellow it has turned after a short period of increased hostility a few months ago.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I do think that behaviour is not what it should be here.
and other than the leste project ...
there are many non maemo projects and devices about here...
and frankly ...that has ushered in all these "people" ...and I use that word only to be polite to those who definitely do not merit it.

Either kick them the hell out and the threads they rode in on.

Or someone replicates the software and downloads and copies the pertinent subforums ..
and we open up under a proper maemo only site.

Or this place will continue to slide towards the abyss.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I hope, this is not true! :eek:
That would be a shame and BIG mistake. Even so, Dave sometimes also got on my nerves, I see absolutely NO reason for banning him!

Can anybody official give a statement on this?

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

Compared to 4-5 years ago, definitely. Compared to 4-5 months ago, I think it's got better.

Sadly, that is true. TJC has gone down the way of The Lord of the Flies and some of that has spilled over here.

I am in two minds about "kicking non-Mamemo traffic out". On one hand, I agree. Sailfish, Necumo etc are definitely off-topic.

On the other hand, let's be honest, limiting topics to just Maemo would result in tumbleweeds rolling across the deserted expanses of TMO. (Also, on a personal level as someone who has succumbed to the devil, I would rather ask a Sailfish related question in a friendly place where I can actually hope for an answer than in the pit of vipers called TJC.)

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

But you are not left alone endsormeans. I'm still here.

For real, I hope there would be room for the good, the bad and the ugly. The new qwerty phone thread brought some foreing fire to the altar of Maemo. But it will be forgotten soon and Nxx0 devices stay.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I've only just seen this post, but would still like to reply that con artists can (also) accurately be described as "someone simply trying to sell something". You are completely ignoring all context and painting said member as wholly innocent and everyone who dishes out criticism as some sort of brutish monster. It's not some bloke who found TMO and said "oh, I still have an old N900 lying around, might as well sell it to these enthusiasts", it isn't even a collector who's trimming their collection, instead it's the very definition of a scalper. A wolf in sheep's clothes, if you will. The idea that sheep should be nice and kind to a wolf just because he's temporarily dressing as a sheep is plainly ridiculous.

By the way, if you read this post, do you still assume innocence? Before that post, the only things that were said were "that's expensive" and "Turing phones don't receive any software updates". Does that really warrant such a rude and pompous reply from the seller?

As a final note, it's probably too far gone now but the past couple of years there's been a strongly increasing trend to write off all criticism, snarky or not, as 'trolling', but that's not at all what trolling is about. Unfortunately, most of the times it's now used to say "I don't agree with you, hence you're a troll". The same thing has happened to a slightly lesser extent to the concept of a 'strawman': "I don't agree with or simply don't understand your argument, therefore it's a strawman". It's really frustrating as these debate stoppers (in my language there's a nice word for them called 'dooddoeners': death-doers/killers) quickly kill off all legitimate discussion.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

I think it's too easy, searching the culprits in Sailfish and whatever users.
I'm using a Sailfish device as my main device, but still firing up my good old N900 from time to time. So what am I? A polite and respectful Maemo User or ****ing internet troll using Sailfish?

Yes, it's became rougher here in that forum. But the problem I see is more that there a so few left and for that reason, there is no proper moderation anymore.

Anyway I see it like nthn. The example given, isn't a good one. Especially because the answers weren't harsh but just questioned if the price is serious.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

It is my belief that wicket's comment that you are quoting is almost entirely aimed at you. I don't think the comments before yours, nor the sellers response to them were of note at all. You saying that he(?) is the " the scum of the earth" because he is trying to sell something that he believes has increased in value since its release is certainly of note.

The internet has always been a place where people can do and say things without the same threat of consequence that is found in the real world. This leads (in my experience) to more frequent and heated "debates". I think that everyone is very aware of the buttons they are pressing when they press them. Let's not be surprised when the mean spirited comments we make have the desired response.

All of that being said, I rarely think people have "crossed the line" in what is said here. I come here for entertainment (as I'm sure most of you do), and I am never disappointed.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

"Hostile" was perhaps too strong a word to describe the general atmosphere of this place, but I think there are cases where the use of the word is justified (ban threats, insults).

I never said he was banned, I don't think he has been banned (it would say so in his profile), but he hasn't been active for a few weeks now and that came shortly after the ban threat. I think he was driven away by the threat of being banned as well as the constant posts vilifying him, some of which have been abusive.

Thank you for replying. Your post is a good example that illustrates my point, so I'm going to entertain a response for one last time.

There is no suggestion in that thread that the seller is a "con artist", only complaints that the price is unjustified. Selling an item at exuberant price does not make one a con artist. If there is a buyer willing to pay the set price, then both parties walk away happy. For the buyer to be conned, the seller would have to run away with the money or send something that did not match the description. The seller provided an option for purchasing the device via a secure method (eBay) that includes a money back guarantee. He has 100% positive feedback on an account that over 13 years old. He also offered an option for an offline deal which could be susceptible to a con. If someone chooses the offline option over the secure method and then ends up being conned, they've no one to blame but themselves.

Going back to my point... these days on TMO, you make a contribution to a thread which might be something as trivial as sharing a link about a relevant news update, and it gets torn apart. So you feel the need to justify your contribution, only for that to get torn apart. So you justify your justification, and it goes on and on and it gets to the point where you question why you bothered contributing anything in the first place.

I'm not saying I don't want anyone to challenge my posts, in fact I feel quite the opposite. I welcome people to challenge my posts. I often make statements which may be controversial and I'm often wrong. I like to learn from that. But it's the challenges that don't seem to make any sense or can be easily dismissed that irk me. The challenger, who regularly won't put much thought into their challenge, has no shame and comes back for more. It happens all too often now. There's little pleasure in posting here any more, so it becomes a waste of time.

That, coupled together with the fact that the only person in charge here likes to make threats of banning people whilst regularly mocking others, is why I will be significantly reducing my activity on this forum.

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

Well said.
And agree.

For myself...
over the last year now..
I am here far less than I used to be.
- coming to help new n8x0 users who post questions in need of help...
(But since n8x0 beginner help is pretty much automated with my walkthrough..There isn't much reason there...any longer...)
- to check on the Leste project.
- The odd time a post elsewhere...
- But mainly for convo in the final countdown ..

I can't see "leaving" ...leaving.
not yet ...
(In the past I couldn't conceive of leaving this place ...but..Neither could I conceive of this place turning into what it is ...either...)
When the final countdown goes quiet ...definitely.
When the topics of discussion are virtually wholly non maemo / nxx0 topics...definitely ..
When discourse breaks down ...definitely.
When there are fewer folks I know here (as has been happening the last few years more and more...) ...definitely.

And on the whole ...that day seems to be coming.

Under normal circumstances I would always come back to utilize the subforums of the nxx0, the downloads, garage, and the odd time the wiki...

But if Leste ends up going quiet here.
If dialogue in the nxx0 subforums goes quiet ..
and folks I know are going or gone..

then that is the time to update my cloned sections of TMO
and utilize them offline.
As it is..I have the nxx0 subforums, wiki, garage and downloads cloned as of a few years ago..
and as a precaution... I still have about 10 TB left on my personal external storage meant just for this purpose...
Though I doubt I will need that much extra now...


I have no illusions of this place "becoming something it wasn't"...
Its been going down this road deliberately for years ...since the non maemo inclusion of Jolla sub forum threads...and their ilk.

So ..
perhaps this fall or winter...
perhaps next winter...
perhaps in many years to come..
I am playing it by ear...
I'll know exactly when I have no interest whatsoever in coming here anymore.
Doesn't mean I won't stop using my nxx0's daily...
nor does it mean I won't download or install stuff to mess and putter with...
It just means ..when that dreadful day comes...
I will have no valid reason for coming back here...

all that being said...
hope you aren't at that point just yet..
Hope you don't go just yet wicket

Re: Forum management and Start-Ups (with anonymous poll)
 

Note that I didn't say the guy was a con artist, just that your definition of "someone simply trying to sell something" could be applied to anyone, whether their intentions are good or not. As you didn't reply to anything I did say, I'm going to assume you don't disagree.

How often does this really happen, though? I don't read all threads, but the only thread I've recently seen with any kind of (unwarranted) criticism is the one about the F(x)tec phone, where dirkvl went for a full character assassination of chenliangchen, and appears to not have been reprimanded (by forum staff) for it. The only recent thing I can see is the Necuno thread where you posted about a blog post, and nieldk made a remark that to his disappointment there isn't really any news in it, which you appear to have interpreted differently. He's the guy who created the thread in the first place. Should I remind you to take another look at the first couple of pages of the thread, where nearly everyone's comments range from "seems too good to be true" to "smells like a scam"? It's true, Necuno is not selling anything yet, so they have nothing to prove. Because of that, they also have everything to prove.
However, whether his disappointment is justified or not doesn't even matter. You're conflating being disappointed in a project with being disappointed in a user's contribution and taking the former as a sort of personal attack. People don't express their thoughts on your (impersonal 'your') contributions, but on the state of the project itself. They aren't saying "how dare you share this with us?" but "we are perhaps irrationally angry at the project you're talking about". If you're a supporter of any project, you will always have to defend it against attacks from critics and detractors until said project has evolved up to a point where its very existence is already a sufficient defense.

Finally, you have to keep in mind that there are also cultural differences at play in how straightforward people are going to be in their comments, and regardless of nationality people are more assertive in keyboard communication.