Brick Iphones
 

Looks like the iphone can be bricked if it is unlock or third party software is on it when the firmware is updated! Seems like Apple is playing hardball when it comes to any software mods not "blessed" by them. New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/29/te...ss&oref=slogin

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Yeah. Apple, you can't live with it...

...

That's it, basically.

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*braces self for vicious fanboy defense*

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Is "Think different" still the Apple marketing slogan?

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I want to like Apple. I really do. After all, my Newtons are still the best handheld devices I've ever had, interface-wise that is.

But let's face it, since Jobs weaseled his way back in, Apple has started behaving like Microsoft on Evil Steroids.

With friggin' lasers.

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I think they've amended it. It's now: "Think Different. Or else..."

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Is that the modified Borg mantra?

Apple is about to be "class actioned" to death. I truly hope so and I like their products but this will be a good thing. I read that someone is trying to organize a week long iTunes boycott. This would be a nice wake up call, not to mention the fact that Amazon has a DRM free service with the same prices (most songs) as Apple is charging on iTunes.

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Eh, I can't imagine any positive comeback from the Apple side for this...

But man, I love Apple. Not for their product, but for the great return they've given me by holding on to their shares.

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That was a very wise buy, I thought about buying it but never pull the trigger. :(

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I thought I posted the following in the original Apple thread awhile ago...

Good thing I checked. I put it in the wrong thead. :o

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Although I understand why people bought an iPhone and unlocked it (because it is a good phone but they want a different network), and I understand why apple want the phone locked to some specific network (because they get money for it), I really for the life of me cannot understand that when people hear there is an update for those phones, and apple warns that if you unlock your phone the update could brick it, you choose to apply that update.

So yes, apple shouldn't go round bricking peoples phones (especially not deliberately if they did), but if you modify your firmware don't go round applying updates before checking nothing bad will happen.

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YeeHaa! I stuck go-faster-stripes on my Ford.
Then, when I had it serviced, they ripped out the engine.
And disconnected the brakes.
Then claimed I'd put in an 'unauthorised upgrade'!

YEAH!!! :- Way-to-go Apple!!

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lol, classic. Don't you Love it. They still own the product..buying it is just pretty much a different level of renting.
Unauthororized upgrade.
Guess the pretty little linux inside sticker I made for my N800 voids my warranty.

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The implication is that Apple is deliberately destroying these phones. I doubt it. I don't think it is unreasonable to ignore other people's hacks when upgrading a phone. And maybe someone can point out where Apple promised that the iPhone would be freely hackable?

If you want freedom, stay away from Apple.

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And Microsoft, and RedHat, and Sun...... You want freedom build the damn thing yourself.:rolleyes:

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Not a fanboy but Apple is in the clear here. Forget the iPhone for a minute. You install OS X and then because you found the terminal, decided to go changing things in the OS and stuff. Then the next OS Update comes out and in the process overwrites your changes. Is it Apple being malicious? Of course not, Apple isn't responsible for what you did to OS X after they gave it to you. Similarly, if an OS update comes out and breaks current functionality (feature not a bug) then Apple would be on the hook Cause they broke something you paid for.

Now in terms of the iPhone, it's been clear from before day 1: No installing stuff onto the phone. You purchased it "as is". They have no idea what you may or may not have installed on your iPhone after purchase nor, should they care. To expect Apple to test out each and every different third party app while they make an update to the product they sold with a certain expressed limitations, is ridiculous.

To go to the car analogy, since someone brought it up. If you were to purchase a car that required Premium gasoline to run, and you put in disel fuel in it and therefore kill your engine, YOU are responsible. Similarly should you decide to put in an additive in the engine that causes a cylinder to seize, No manufacturer in their right mind would warranty repair that. Similarly should you put on aftermarket parts like say a turbocharger that blows a piston ring. No manufacturer is going to warranty repair that.

So Apple is fully within' it's rights and obligations to provide updates to the iPhone. The user had a choice to update or not to update. If they do not understand the consequences of hacking a device then they shouldn't be hacking a device. Period.

And really I think it's funny that we're talking about this seeing as any Nokia update wipes any apps you've installed and took away a feature we had before.

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No, You own the product, as is. No one forced anyone to make any update at all. You can stop all updates at iTunes. Heck you can download little snitch (on a mac) and stop all internet connections for iTunes, a great way to make sure no updates make it anywhere close to YOUR phone.

Now if you <i>want</i> the latest from Apple, then they got rules. Your phone, your choice.

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so if someone takes apart the update and finds that apple is deliberately killing unlocked phones, will your stance still be the same?

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Better yet, should a company be allowed to do so?

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I'm not an Apple fanboi either, but I personally don't have a problem with what Apple are doing - in fact, I think it was entirely predictable given the lucrative revenue streams that the iPhones represent.

Any hack that permits opting out of future Apple revenue contributions will be defeated with each new firmware release, leaving hacked iPhones with stagnating firmware until someone finds a new solution. Bricking phones may be extreme, but Apple owes the owners of hacked iPhones jack sh1t as the warranties were voided as soon as the devices were tampered with. If anything I think the bricking of devices just shows how p1ssed Apple are that people have hacked the devices - if I was losing $200+ per device I'd probably be hopping mad too!

In the long term, hacked devices may be a good thing for "legitimate" iPhone owners as it's now even more so in Apples interest to bring out insanely great firmware upgrades in an effort to tempt hacked owners to upgrade and get back on the Apple revenue gravy train.

I've never argued the closed nature of the iPhone is a good thing, however I think you either accept it and enjoy the device for what it is, or fight a (most likely) losing battle trying to hack the device as I'm sure Apple will make a far "better" job of closing the iPhone firmware than Sony ever did with the PSP. Bricking hacked devices is testament to that - Sony would never go that far!

And now that a bricked device is a possible future consequence for prospective newbie clueless fckwit "hackers" who need to be spoon-fed single-click solutions from the internet, they may think twice before avoiding to pay the Apple shilling.

Whatever my feelings for Apples motives in bricking hacked iPhones, it doesn't detract from my admiration for the top notch quality devices they have designed and delivered. :)

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Mine will, mainly because I think it was utterly predictable - whether the bricking is intentional or not makes little difference, as Apple can argue that a non-hacked device will not be bricked, and anything else isn't their problem.

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I haven't read the warranty, but what does it say about tampering with the device - does it differentiate between hardware and software/firmware? If the software/firmware is tampered with - ie. hacked - I'd expect the warranty to be void so yes, they probably can do this, particularly as they're not forcing the users to update.

Apple are not obliged to support unsupported hacks, and since they gave fair warning that the new update may cause problems on hacked phones I think they covered themselves adequately. Some criticism of Apple may have been warranted if they had given no warning at all, but as they did so I don't have a problem with their approach.

:)

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It all reminds me of when IE installs would b0rk Netscape installed on Windows...

Microsoft first started that kind of behavior when people were foolish enough to install DrDOS. :eek:

Fortunately Microsoft was checked on that and Apple should be as well.

With MS it was through the courts, with Apple it could be the market that eventually spanks them.

The fact is that their software is b0rking privately owned property. If this is by design then it could be described as malicious...

...So until some lawyer sees some class action $$$'s in his future nothing will change. Even then, Like MS they will learn from their mistakes.
They will continue doing what they were doing but they will have learned how not to get caught. :p

Even a market spanking wont likely happen. They already broke even with a million sold and I'm sure this latest i-thing is on at least 5 million more holiday gift lists.

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Why is this in general thread?

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Because there isn't a 'Pick on someone else's device flaws" section. :D

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Whats awesome is that people don't understand what bricking is. No iPhones are bricking. Its all fixable, and if you can fix it, its not bricked.

I had 3rd party apps on my phone. Its fine.

If you modify the baseband firmware, it gets flashed back to factory and is locked down with the 1.1.1 firmware, which hasnt been jailbreaked.

All these bloggers are mentally ******ed and dont understand this. So its "bricked".

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hahahahhah good for apple!

people were warned, no one held a gun to their head to hack their iphone, no one held a gun to their head to make them update their iphone and when you did hack you iphone, you some how had to know "this will screw something up somewhere" (otherwise it's not a hack, duh).

"may void warranty" applies to most products we buy. Apple is doing no different. If I had a new diesel truck and convert it to use biodiesel and it suddenly stops running, is the truck manufacturer or oil company liable? hahaha of course not.

You may hate apple for whatever reason but they said, the iphone isn't ready for 3rd parts apps officially, and it's just AT&T for now. You buck the system, you take a risk. This may change in the future but for now, it's "We told ya so".

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If someone would find that out, Apple would be in heap big trouble. IIRC, there is jurisprudence in the USA that explicitly prohibits manufacturers of cellular phones to do such a thing.

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Consider it a group therapy session.

I don't know why more people in the linux world need this sort of group bashing though.. probably an indication of a mass frustration at some common problem of some sort.

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Absolutely. So long as they are not under any contractual obligation to ATT to do so ( Like the DRM requirements from the record companies).

If they are contractually obligated then I think a lawsuit to determine the legality of such an arrangement would be in order.

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We all hack the crap out of our Nokia's and Nokia is all for it. They even designed the flashing around this concept and have delicious backups allowed. It's impossible to truly brick an n800 without throwing it I suppose and nokia goes into the market with the mindset that people will tinker with their toys. Imagine if IBM or DELL screwed over your laptop because you installed one OS over another.

There are a lot of ways to argue this, but the bottom line is apple needs to be more aware of their market...period. If you've got 10% of your customer base downloading and installing (stat pulled from article on first page) third party apps, that's a HUGE share in any mindset when talking about the overall reaching scope of friends and family who will now be turned off from Apple in the future.
You guys can sit by and smugly clap your hands that apple "got back" at the "hackers" but a majority are just average schmoes looking to improve something they own. Any market where upgrading software or hardware is done should be done on a complete overhaul level so destruction of now private property does not occur.

(This post written entirely on n800 with virtual keyboard... whew!)

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OK I was the one who started this thread. Maybe I should have put it under "OFF TOPIC". Hope you don't ban me from posting. :D

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I'm not being smug, but I don't feel terribly sorry for iPhone owners if they hack their devices only to find their devices "incompatible" with future firmware updates. Whenever I've "hacked" a device (eg. a network router) it's usually because I've decided to install unofficial/after market firmware, at which point I no longer expect to be able to use official manufacturer firmware updates. Apple iPhone owners are in the same boat - only there is no alternative firmware, so what are they expecting? Cake and eat it? Apple Computer says "no"...

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http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/29/i...ions-released/

To use weblog ****** lingo... "iPhones are now unbrickable."

Even though they were NEVER bricked in the first place. We're 4 pages in, and people still think they are being "bricked".

Look how ignorant their posts are :(

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/breaking/...emo-305230.php

Seriously, do they do any research? Or understand what's going on? I should get into one of these blogs, at least I'd research the articles I write.

They make posts, just to be 3 minutes ahead of the other and its filled with misinformation, so they do "UPDATES".

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Bricked or locked, it's all the same to me - why bother trying to be accurate when we are calling iPhone owners "hackers"? Script kiddies would be more accurate. :)

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Ummmm no.
If you changed config files and flashed the device all those changes would have been wiped. Furthermore, the n800 was sold as something to install stuff on. The iPhone was not.

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Hence my backup capabilities comment.

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Apple supplied a device that wasn't supposed to be changed or modified by the owner - why should Apple now be held responsible if new firmware fails to work correctly with a modified iPhone? Should Apple be expected to test their future firmware with every unauthorised hack available on the internet?

Apple have made the situation pretty clear, it's up to the iPhone owners if they want to accept the consequences. iPhone owners are certainly not breaking any laws by "hacking" their iPhones and I'm glad to see it happening, but blaming Apple for not supporting iPhones with unauthorised software modifications is crazy.

:)

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It's all about "intent". Obviously modifying the baseband chip firmware in the new 1.1.1 update was NOT "necessary" and Apple only did it to re-lock all those unlocked phones. Thus that intent is considered "malicious" and a pretty good civil class-action can be made about it since the DMCA specifically exempts anyone from being sued by a cell phone company for "unlocking" their own phone. IN a class action suit Apple would have to provide PROOF that there was a specific bug in the baseband firmware that was bad enough to necessitate such a forced change.
If Apple cannot provide proof then the court system will interpret that as malicious intent and an actual violation of the current DMCA exemption and a curtailing of consumer rights. That could set one hell of a precedent and you can be damn sure that every single cell phone provider and manufacturer on the planet would be watching such a case very closely.
Again, Apple doesn't have to support any user-made modifications to the iPhone but they also CANNOT maliciously "brick" users' modified phones just to drag them back to AT&T or to force them to buy another iPhone.
Magnussen-Moss is being touted as having something to do with this even though that act was originally created to deal with the automotive sales market.
Again, it all goes back to this ONE question:
"What was Apple's purpose in having their update reflash the baseband chip?"
If they cannot come up with a good enough reason then Apple is legally sunk as far as the iPhone is concerned.

However, current US law does NOT specifically state that cell phone providers MUST allow the cell phone purchasers to be able to unlock their phones for use on different networks. There is legislation currently being drawn up to address the issue, but it's not been sent down to the floor for a vote, if it ever makes it out of committee. But current US law DOES allow for user's to unlock their own phones themselves without fear of reprisal from the phone manufacturer or cell service provider. Again, this current update could be interpreted as a malicious reprisal by Apple towards those who unlocked their phones to run on GSM networks other than AT&T-owned and operated networks.

I care not one way or the other really since I don't own one of those crippled-from-the-start iPhones but when one looks at the whole situation from a legal standpoint, Apple could be in big trouble if the can't answer the baseband chip reprogramming issue.
Of course, Apple could just come back and say that it was needed in order for the phone to support more GSM networks world-wide, but that's shaky ground and actual code would need to be reviewed by a court-appointed neutral third-party or special master to verify that claim.

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I'm enjoying my stock 1.1.1 phone. Silly T-Mobile whiners.

If you're unlocking a phone, you should expect zero updates. Whats the problem? Don't buy it and use some other unlocked phone. Maybe they can buy an N800 :)