Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

I'm in the same boat, being in the US, where Sailfish X isn't officially available. But just now looking at the dropdown list of countries at Jolla.com where SFOS X can be purchased, it doesn't appear the UK is on the list of countries now, either. Wasn't it on the list prior to Brexit, or am I remembering it wrong? I have been wrong before.

Anyway, glad I'm a fan of Irish Opera, that makes up somewhat for the inconvenience.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

No you're not wrong. Looks like an Xperia 10ii will be going begging as won't be able to purchase Sailfish X for it (if ever released), but will have all the fuss of CN22 customs declaration just to send to Europe from UK now.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

It's EU not allowing free trade. Just FYI.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Didn't we spend years 'negotiating' to ensure free trade was maintained and celebrate finally getting a deal? Politicians :rolleyes:

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

It took years because of the rigged second referendum conspiracy, i.e. we'll thwart the Brexit vote by pitching a deal we've sabotaged (by legislating to take no deal off the table etc... ) against remain in a "confirmatory vote" and then pretend that's democracy in action.

Here's a video of A C Grayling from the "Peoples Vote" campaign pitching the embryo of the idea to Guy Verhofstadt. Now every day on twitter Grayling bleats and blubs about how terrible the Brexit deal is even though he explicitly begged for a bad one.

The irony is their skulduggery led to a much harder Brexit than there might otherwise have been.



As somebody who's written the code for commercial invoices, Intrastat Declarations and EC Sales Lists I can tell you one was no more difficult than the other, it's just grabbing data x and stuffing it in template y. Bread and butter for database programmers and if you're an ISO 9001 company you'll already be collecting the necessary data. Things are sticky at the moment because there was so little time between the deal being done and its required processes going live.



Be warned, I once purchased a tablet from those shysters and I'm still waiting for the second 50% of my refund.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Can we leave politics out of this, please?

Look at it from an individual business' point of view. International trade has challenges. You have to deal with different rules and regulations, custom checks, tariffs and who knows what else. I would know: unlike you, I grew up in a country where our company had to deal with such things on a daily basis.

So any individual business has to make tough choices: do we trade internationally or not? Is the extra hassle and associated costs (staffing, training, keeping up with regulations in all our export markets...) worth it? Or do we go the easier path and trade just within our own country and forfeit a bigger market?

This is where the idea of a single market comes in. It expands what "within our country" means. It makes it easy to forget that Finland, France, Germany, Slovakia, Romania are different countries. From an individual business' point of view, it makes no difference whether you are buying from or selling to Helsinki, Frankfurt or Milano. That, my friend, is the exact opposite of "not allowing free trade".

The drawback is that it may have worked too well and made things too easy. So easy that some businesses (such as Jolla) are content with the market of 450 million and do not bother with all the hassle of looking beyond. Especially considering that those 450 million cover most of the richer part of the world. (BTW, we see the same in the US, where many US companies do not know how to trade outside the US and where most people do not even know the international dial prefix.)

What is worse, the single market made trading so easy that some people, particularly in the country that has been subject to decades of relentless anti-EU propaganda, forgot that it was the single market that made it easy. They take their luck and privilege for granted and are whinging when they foolishly throw it away and suddenly see the consequences. Like, for example, Brexit voting British fishermen.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Not particularly significant challenges though. For over 30 years I was a Director of a UK manufacturing company that traded right around the world. Once you've got your business processes setup for a particular locale you're away, none of it was rocket science.



You're ignoring processes like Intrastat declarations, ECSL or (heaven forbid) VAT Triangulation.



The EU is a protectionist bloc with a very high tariff barrier at its perimeter (and a tariff schedule that protected German and French industries but weren't well suited to the UK economy), it's hardly a beacon of free trade.



Shush... don't mention Target 2 and that the Bundesbank is actually insolvent.
And then we have the demographics of Europe to consider.



The UK paid an EU membership fee higher than tariffs for the "luck and privilege" of trading without tariffs.

Furthermore import tariffs are money going in to the UK treasury where they are used to pay for the National Health Service, Education, Social Services, ...

The membership fee is money going out of the UK treasury where it pays for lovely new infrastructure for the UK's competitors plus private jets / free wine cellars / obscenely generous pensions for incompetent EU politicians and bureaucrats, ... Oh, you can't beat that warm fuzzy feeling you get from subsidizing your competitors.

Given a choice between the two above I know which I'd rather fund.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

That depends. Oranges are oranges. There is probably not much difference in regulations between different countries. Though, being an agricultural product, I am not even sure about that. Medicines and other chemicals, meat and dairy products, electrical goods, non-material goods such as services, information and software may be more difficult.

Note that I said "may be", not "are". You may say they are not and you may well be right. But how do you know? How can you be sure? The situation may change at any moment as countries change their regulations, as the UK has repeatedly indicated it wants to do in diverging from EU rules. You need someone whose job it is to constantly monitor the situation in all your export markets. In other words, additional costs to your business.

But, most importantly, as I have pointed out several times in this forum, there is a bigger difference between "nothing" and "a little" than there is between "a little" and "a lot". A million is only a million times bigger than 1, but 1 is an infinity times bigger than zero. For a business that has evolved in an environment where they have never had to deal with such challenges, a change from "nothing" to "something" is a HUGE change. A qualitative change, if you will. A completely new way of thinking. The British fishermen being "caught by surprise" (despite being warned many times but dismissing all warnings as "project fear") are an excellent example. In comparison, a change from "something" to "something more" is merely a quantitative change.

<political, feel free to ignore>

Quote:

The EU is a protectionist bloc with a very high tariff barrier at its perimeter (and a tariff schedule that protected German and French industries but weren't well suited to the UK economy), it's hardly a beacon of free trade.

It is striking how the British tabloid propaganda machine has permeated regular folks' thinking. Just use words like "protectionist" as pejorative, without giving any explanation or context, or claim it helps "the others" but not "us", again without providing any proof, and they will parrot it without thinking. Then you can manipulate them into doing anything, including acting against their own interests. All you need to do is conjure an external enemy and foster the "us and them" mentality.

Of course the EU is protectionist. No one has ever said otherwise. Every market protects itself. What the Single Market has achieved is absolutely remarkable: it replaced 28 (now 27) individual protectionist markets with one. It did not erect any new barriers, but it removed barriers among the members. A model so successful it has been replicated many times around the world. A model the UK had benefited from HUGELY, rising from "the sick man of Europe" to the 5th richest country in the world. (Note that we have dropped down that rank after the Brexit vote. Depending on what measure you apply, we are now between 7th and 11th.)

Quote:

The UK paid an EU membership fee higher than tariffs for the "luck and privilege" of trading without tariffs.

I have yet to see a country that imposes less than 0.4% import tariffs. Because that's how much our EU membership had cost us. Even if such a hypothetical utopian country existed, there are non-tariff barriers. As "a Director of a UK manufacturing company that traded right around the world", I am sure you are fully aware of that.

Quote:

Furthermore import tariffs are money going in to the UK treasury where they are used to pay for the National Health Service, Education, Social Services, ...

Another popular British tabloid trope. Yes, it is money going to the treasury. But where from? The nasty foreigners? No, it is money paid to the country's treasury by... its own citizens!

Tariffs are not a source of income. It is not money flowing into the country. It is money flowing from the citizens to the government. You are right, a left-wing, centrist or a moderate-right government would spend it on public services. Not our current cohort we've had in power for over a decade, who have an ideological aversion to public services and who, as we have seen especially in the past year, have no qualms about shovelling billions of public money to private hands, with nothing or very little to show for it.

As you say, given a choice between the two above I know which I'd rather fund.
</political>

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Please note again that I do not want to turn this into another political discussion, beyond what is absolutely necessary to explain the thread topic: that Jolla has removed the UK from the list of supported countries.

I have tried to explain what a membership of the Single Market means to an individual business such as Jolla and what consequences the choice of a country to leave the Single Market might have. All of it was 100% predictable (and predicted, if you listened to the experts rather than snake oil salesmen). The only people acting surprised are those who never stopped to think about it.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

And oranges are a fine example of how the EU's tariff schedule was not appropriate for the UK, why would the UK want a 16% tariff on oranges?



Cool, I'm glad you've accepted that point. Not all Brexit voters are free marketeers, many share your protectionist viewpoint and want to protect the UK market from the EU to redress the massive trade deficit.



UK joining the EEC (as it was then) erected a trade barrier between UK and its greatest allies - Australia, Canada and New Zealand putting a trade barrier between them and their biggest export market (at the time).



It hasn't been replicated anywhere. In fact the repeated claim it's the "biggest single market in the world" is a play on that, designed to mislead without being a direct lie. It's certainly not the biggest trade bloc in the world.

Now the UK has left the EU should it join CPTPP, as HMG has suggested it would like to do, CPTPP will be larger than the EU's single market however CPTPP will still not be a "single market".



Initially when UK joined things got worse not better. The marked improvement in the UK's economy was really due to Thatcher's reforms in the eighties.



The world won't stand still, within the next decade swathes of the car industry (so important to Germany) will be wiped out by TaaS and London's Financial Services could suffer a similar fate from DeFi. Don't imagine desperately clinging to the Status Quo makes you safe. Sometimes you need to temporarily go backwards in order to change to a better course for the future.



As I stated above the UK has a massive trade deficit with the EU, torrents of money flooding out, only a trickle coming back. If you look at the UK's trade balance with the RoW it's clear we're not adding value and selling it on either. So where's that money coming from?



From Jolla's wiki:
On 25 July 2014 Jolla opened the first Jolla store in Kazakhstan in association with Mobile Invest.
On 12 August 2014 Jolla was launched in Hong Kong in a partnership with 3 Hong Kong.
In September 2014, Jolla launched in India on e-retailer Snapdeal.
In November 2014, Jolla launched in Russia.

As I understand it the only place Jolla has gained any traction is with the Russian government who don't want an American OS.

Jolla would enthusiastically embrace any market that would pay them some attention.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

I am sure Jolla will happily embrace the UK market, as this is still Europe ;) and because they have some ties there while the UK has promised to be quite opened to trade.

That being said, I disagree to many points from @switch-hitter
This is probably because I am an economist :P

I believe Brexit was not mostly based on economics. All economic reasoning that have been used to convince people for brexit were/are mostly excuses to justify something based on politics.

The view of Martin Sandbu is quite balanced I believe (even though I am sure the FT is viewed and played the card against brexit):
The UK gained more autonomy but what is it good for? (https://www.ft.com/content/8c0aaf62-...5-2b14d1ae342d)

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

I asked the Jolla team directedly and their response was.....

"Hi,

Thank you for your message!

Unfortunately it is no longer possible to purchase a Sailfish X licence in the UK due to Brexit.

Please stay tuned and follow us at https://blog.jolla.com/ and https://jolla.com/#Newsto get the latest news and updates!

Regards,

Jolla Team"

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Shame that there isn't a "grandfather clause" for accounts created within the last seven years to support their work from UK prior to Brexit, although accepting there has to be a cut-off.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

I wish there were some kinda something to get Sailfish X on the total up and up in the US (like idunno, easier international licencing for little guys) without me having to jump through a few jumpable hoops to get them to "shut up and take my money".

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

politics

politics

politics

politics

... ever more political interference

All these things aren't some law of physics; they are the product of politics, and that is the product of an interventionist ideology.

I would LOVE to leave politics out of this, but all the points you list are the result of politicians interfering with our natural, productive, healthy and voluntary human interactions. Free trade is: you want to buy and I want to sell and no politician interferes. I've been in business for 30 years and a student of economics since twenty. Don't presume you know what I am.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Indeed. Hence my follow-up post.

Absolutely! ALL human interaction follows rules made up by humas. You can say it is all the product of some ideology or other. Including the unregulated, free market you advocate.

But let's have a look at a few achievements of a such an "interventionist ideology"-free utopia:

• Slavery
• 14 hours per day, 6 days a week work
• 5-year-old children climbing up chimnies or down mine shafts because they are small enough to fit
• Workers getting crushed, losing hearing or contracting lung cancer because there si no "political interference" forcing their employers to provide safety harnesses, ear protection or respiratory masks
• Radium girls
• DDT, smog, acid rain, global warming, plastic gyre, leaded petrol, ozone hole...
• The 2008 financial crash!
• Pensioners freezing to death because they cannot afford the heating bills
• Food banks popping up all over the country (I know about the UK and the US, not so much about others), because people with jobs do not earn enough to feed their families

It is interesting to observe how the proponents of "free this" and "free that" like to forget that part of freedom is also, "I do not want to buy from you or sell to you." (Or, in case of the so-called "free speech", replace "buy from and sell to" with "listen to".)

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

All your misunderstandings can be cleared up by studying real economics at mises.org.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Had to look him up, but it appears Ludwig von Mises is basically Bargain Counter Ayn Rand. Definitely stuff that seemed totally reasonable to 14-year-old-me uber-mensch. Because aren't we all at that age?

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Anyway back-on topic. The Jolla representative's response, "it is no longer possible to purchase a Sailfish X licence in the UK due to Brexit." Is inaccurate and misleading.

Exiting the EU is not a cause of not being able to get a Sailfish X. Unless UK actually bans them, it's the EU interfering with trade. Always try to keep a clear head and recognize who is actually performing an action - in this instance, forbidding a voluntary trade or contract.

Try to avoid blaming the victim -- 180 degrees backwards thinking. A lot of that going around nowadays.

It has become a common fallacy to believe that simply inverting the obviously true thing makes you a 'sophisticated thinker'.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Ironically Fairphone has no reservations still trading with UK.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Since it's the exchange support, autocorrect component and android support that come with the paid Sailfish X, my hypothesis was that one or more of these were subject to being licensed for distribution by the IP owner in certain areas only, the UK perhaps no longer in the EU and thus not in a covered area. I've got no special knowledge, but I doubt that Jolla wants to impose restrictions keeping Sailfish X (technically) out of such places as the US and UK, and I doubt that the EU is concerned about distribution due to weaponization(?!) of spellcheck or something like that. The answer is probably just boring and annoying.

But like I said, I do want Jolla to get paid, so once again "music" wins the day.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

I guess that's because of the bureaucracy imposed due to brexit which is still not clarified yet, e.g. import taxes, customs, and VAT recalculation, maybe licensing regulation issues too? For small business such overhead might be prohibited, I hope things will be resolved soon?

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

"Misunderstandings." A good one. :D

Let me explain it to you in the simplest terms imaginable.

Situation:
Tariffs and non-tariff trade bariers between different markets exist. Feel free to call them politics.

Some magic unicorn, free-market, libertarian solution:
Trade barriers magically disappear. But only for me. So I can freely export to other markets, but others wanting to enter my market and compete with me better not even try. Most importantly, all of this happens just because I wish for it. I do not need to do anything: not accept or even consider the other guy's terms and absolutely no compromise.

Real world solution:
Contries X and Y get together and discuss: "Aren't you fed up with all these politics of international trade? Why don't we get rid of them? Let's agree on certain common rules and remove differences between our markets, thus creating a Single Market™. Of course it means both of us will have to give something as well as take but it will be worth it. A country Z can either join us or remain a Third Country™, with all the politics still applying to them like it always used to."

Over time, 2 countries grow to 28. Then one decides to leave and acts surprised to find itself in the position of country Z.
Like I said before, it was too easy to take your luck and privilege for granted and forget to give credit where credit was due.


What is ironic about that? Like I said before, each business has a choice. Is trading outside of our own market worth the hassle? Can we be bothered to set up systems to deal with the politics? Or do we only trade in the market where we do not have to think about it?

Fairphone clearly decided it was worth it. They did it years ago. They had two files - "do not have to deal with politics" and "have to deal with politics" - and systems to deal with them. For them, Brexit was hardly any change. It was simply moving one country from one file to the other.

Jolla, on the other hand, only ever had the "do not have to deal with politics" file. Their choice was either to create the other one (and employ someone to deal with it, with all the extra costs it entails) or, with a sigh, rip a page from the only file they had and throw it away.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Clearly, I was wrong: "At the moment, we ship to all countries of the EU, Norway, and Switzerland."
(https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-...cles/202005103)

In other words. they also only have one file: the one labeled, "do not have to deal with politics".

Most likely, they simply have not removed the UK from the list yet because no one is maintaining their website. Out of date info on companies' websites is not all that rare. They still list Maplin as a local distributor, for crying out loud. Maplin went out of business in 2018.

Try to actually order from them and see.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Ordered an infamous bottom module upon 19/03/21 which UPS supposed to deliver today, but now re-scheduled for 01/04/21 as not yet left The Netherlands for the UK so watch this space.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

That could be interesting. I keep hearing horror stories about failed deliveries to the UK due to new customs arrangements.

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Small point of order, Maplin is back up and running (at least online), and you can indeed buy the FP here https://www.maplin.co.uk/fairphone-3...-8718819372073
:)

Re: Sorry Brexiteers, no Sailfish X for you!
 

Well bottom module arrived today eventually although below VAT threshold so should not have been an issue. However another motor part above threshold from Netherlands was returned to sender by PostNL, so couldn't say lost in transit so I was refunded without issue.