Amazon Kindle
 

Ostensibly an eBook reader but with a 800x600 screen and wifi, plus the full Internet experience (apparently). The screen isn't backlit and I'm not sure it's even color. It includes a keyboard, of sorts, but not one that you'll ever touchtype on.

It will cost $399.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/official/...ing-324129.php

It's interesting that Apple and now Amazon are producing handheld Internet devices almost by accident -- desktop-quality browsing and email in a device whose main task is something else.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

You're mistaken if you think that these devices offer "desktop-quality browsing".

eInk display technology is very slow. But it's clear in daylight and uses no power to maintain the image.

It's wonderful for eBook reading, but very poor for web browsing.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Everyone keeps chiming in on how these things don't have a backlight, but they don't seem to get that is th whole point. With e-ink, the image essentially sits on the surface of the display and is extremely high contrast. You can view the screen in full direct sunlight, whereas a backlight LCD screen washes out. The real criticism is why there is no front/edge lighting built in to be able to use the screen in the dark. You are essentially limited to using the device like you would use a real book...fine in the day but need to turn a light on to read in bed.

Eink advantages over LCD:

-very low battery useage, essentially only during a state change
-extremely high contrast, looks similar to a dark grey pencil on paper
-direct sunlight visibility
-extremely thin, with very large and flexible displays a possibility

Disadvantages
-The screen update methods currently require several seconds. Fine for fairly static pages, but not for video or anything moving. Even the "best" update/screen refresh methods can leave a bit of a ghost image of the last page displayed behind and these update methods produce an inverse flash effect which I find quite distracting.
-Currently limited to a 4-16 shades of grey
-Can't read without some external illumination

BTW, the Kindle is ugly as sin and looks to have poor ergonomics. As much as I hate Sony, their latest version of the reader is quite attractive and svelte. It is about a hundred bucks cheaper too.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

No mention of WiFi or Bluetooth? That would tie it to EV-DO/CDMA, making it barely useful outside the Americas, or, given that Amazon seems to have some integrated device and data plan (there is no mention of it needing an extra SIM card and data plan), probably not even outside the US. Besides, EV-DO (much like EDGE, its GSM counterpart) is much less useful than 3G for internet access thanks to its large round-trip delays.

Sevo

Amazon Kindle
 

(merged thread)

Wow, I think Amazon has a hit on Kindle -- a book reader that has built-in, no-subscription-needed EVDO. Amazon definitely kills the Sony Reader with Kindle. The only negative thing about it is the price ($399).

Product page: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...pf_rd_i=507846
Video: http://prolvideo.thomson.com/176060/demo.mov

Now, what can Nokia learn from this. Hmm...

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Plus it's DRM'd to hell. Wake me up when they talk about being able get RSS streams for free instead of for a subscription price, when I can get read PDFs and Ebooks that I already have, on my terms. A 400 buck vector to sell me more crap does not interest me.

Oh, and the thing looks like 1985 got really drunk and vomited all over the drafting table. There. I said it.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Actually, you can convert your own files for free as long as they are in the following formats: .AZW, .PRC, .MOBI, .MP3, .AA and .TXT

Just put them all to the SD card.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

If it could share it's EVDO via wifi, then I might buy one to use as a gateway for my N800 ;-) (and be willing to pay for an unlimited EVDO feed for doing so).

But, regardless of the whole "you should read your ebooks on eink blah blah blah" thing, I'd rather have this content available on my N800. Is there a way to take Amazon's ebook content and read it on Maemo? If no, then I wont care about Amazon's content. If yes, then I might buy their content and use it on my tablet.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Oh, one thing to be wary of.... I heard (via mykindle.com I think?) that each kindle has its own dedicated email address. For direct marketing.

yet another reason why I wouldn't want to use their device.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Finally a (what seems to be) usable ebook reader... But would somebody slap the designers around for a bit....??? Holy cow this is one of the ugliest gadgets i've seen in a while...

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

When I say "desktop-quality browsing", I'm referring to two things: The size of the display, in pixels, and the applications.

The Nokia tablets offer desktop-quality browsing, whereas mobile phones offer a cut-down rendition of browsing because of small screens and incomplete browser software (no Flash or AJAX).

Actually screen quality is an additional issue that I hadn't taken into account. I wasn't aware of the eink technology, so that sounds like the Kindle really is little more than a specific tool for reading ebooks.

Incidentally, my two cents on ebook readers (above all the obvious points, such as that people LIKE paper books) -- something that's plastic is unpleasant to hold for long periods. One nice thing about paper is that it soaks up your hand sweat/grease. Paper is much more organic and we like that.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Yes, for the N8x0. (770's SOL on this one.)
Point the webcam at the Kindle, take pictures, look at them later. ;)
I have no information on this, but I highly doubt it will work any other way than camera or slightly more sophisticated framebuffer grabs. (For a few months, then someone may break it.)

WRT EVDO, slow RTT, who cares? eink screens update slow enough that that will be much less problematic.

I hate saying this, since I really want to love (and get) an e-ink device, but I don't really see the point of the Kindle, unless you really need some titles that are only available through Amazon.
The XO-1 seems to be better, and BOGO for the same price. The 1200x900 hybrid reflective/transmissive screen should be great for ebooks. Not quite as good of contrast as e-ink, and slightly more power consumption, but I think the higher resolution is key. Plus fast page changes, and even scrolling down rather than page changes, so you read more in a given time period.
And the XO is better for other tasks. If you're paying $400 for an e-book reader that browses and emails, you may as well get one that does it well.
The N800, of course, is also awesome for ebooks. But the screen is probably a little small (physically, not pixels) if that's your primary use, plus not daylight-friendly. And the battery life, while awesome, is not quite all-day power (in my usage pattern).
If I needed a dedicated eBook reader though, I'd jump for the XO before this. Hopefully Amazon doesn't scrap it though, and makes a Kindle 2 later. That'll be a real device, and I'll probably get one.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

The DRM along with the high price of the ebooks are deal killers for me. Drop the book price to somewhere below the cost of a standard paperback and lose the DRM and I'd be all over it.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I think it will have a big follower. Non-techie people in the business sector is I think is its primary market. I'm guessing we'll see the Kindle a lot in airports soon.

As for me, I'd like to see the Kindle (or a similar e-ink device) in schools where books, lectures, and papers are all in electronic format and contained in one device.

Btw, If you need to convert a doc/pdf to an ebook format, MobiPocket has a free tool (for PC only): http://www.mobipocket.com/en/Downloa...ilsCreator.asp

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I use my Sony Reader everyday and have loved it. In no way would I do web browsing on an e-ink display. The screen is too slow for anything but linear reading. Even school books, where you flip through certain portions, would only be a headache.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I think that kind of depends. For one, I think at the elementary level (5yrs - 11yrs old), that actual books might be better. Not sure if the middle school/jr. high school level would fit here as well (11-13/14 years old).

At the high school level, then it might make sense. And definitely at the college level (where it could dramatically reduce the tons of books some people have to carry).

But ... I think ultimately, even at the college level, I would have wanted to have both an ebook reader AND some of my books on paper. For example, having a book I can read and physical mark up and take physical notes upon would have been essential for some classes. But then having that same book on an e-reader for reference, for reading on the fly, etc. would have been rather useful and convenient as well.

And I say that even if there's a way to do highlighting and notations in the e-reader... I would still want to have a physical page for doing some of that. Probably about 1 in 10 of my books would have needed to be physical, but my point is: 1 in 10 would have needed to be physical books.

So, having 100% of my books on e-ink, and 10% of my books in hand ... then the ability to highlight and mark the physical book ... and then transcribe those physical notes and highlights to my ebook (or, for the books I don't have physical copies of, taking direct notes and highlights on the ebook) ... that would indeed have been quite useful.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Kindle.... subscription based browsing ($13.99/month for the New York Times, $2/month for BoingBoing blog) that I can do for free on WiFi, a $400 price tag and EV-DO that doesn't work anywhere but the States - are Amazon nuts? Why didn't they consider Bluetooth tethering or would this have scuppered their already ridiculous business model?

To be honest this thing has failure written all over it, more so than the Palm Foleo - if it were sold at a loss, something like $100, it might have a chance with the subscription model but at full price AND subscriptions - no thanks. Amazon would do better to support the Nokia tablets, perhaps as a partner to allow easy eBook downloads.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

re: EVDO is US only.

a) that's not true ... it's also available in certain east asian countries
b) even so, I bet that this is initially a pilot run, and if it is a success, they'll come up with GSM and/or WiMAX versions for non-CDMA markets.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Different devices in each region wouldn't have been necessary if Amazon followed the Nokia approach and used Bluetooth tethering but then Amazon would have to somehow offer the cut price data plans on existing contracts... and they still somehow have to ink agreements with at least one service provider in each country they release into - a logistical nightmare that could see the Kindle released only in the USA.

The lack of any WiFi connection is also quite bizarre but again it's omission serves only to reinforce the business model. Pretty naff all round really.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I think people miss the point with the subscription charges - this is basically to cover the wireless cellular access, but I think it's fairer - if you don't download any new books you pay nothing. don't want the NYT, doesn't cost you anything.

how many people have monthly payments on the cell/mobile phone and have to "use them or lose them"?

the nice thing about kindle is that prices are well understood, it's not a confusopoly (ask Scott Adams) which cell/mobile phones are based on, you want the book, you get it.

as for using the kindle as a gateway for another device to access the net, I am sure that the data contract Amazon signed specifically ensures you can only access the Amazon site, they do all the RSS aggregation and reformatting onto their device, hence they also give you an email address and thus ensure you device is kept safely in a "walled garden".

having said all that, I would be very interested in a Kindle in the UK if it were cheaper and I could hack it so I could use it as a more general purpose device.

--edit-- at least according to earlier reports, the kindle runs linux:
"screen is 600x800 with a six-inch diagonal, and uses the same E Ink technology as Sony's Reader. The Kindle comes with 256 MB of RAM, and the Linux-based operating system leaves 180MB of that for user content"
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...ok-market.html

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I just ordered a Kindle.

What did it for me is that they have a bunch of Wrox "Professional" and "Programmer-to-Programmer" books available (and more coming). I carry about twenty pounds of Wrox books around in my car, so I have them available at work and at home. (When "the check" from the VCs comes in, we'll buy copies for the office, but I'm not holding my breath). The idea of being able to carry my technical library around in my briefcase (or in my pocket, even) is compelling. Add in the ability to text-search and to bookmark, and it's a no-brainer. The ability to grab a technical book in a minute, anytime anywhere, is priceless for someone like me - jack of all trades and master of whatever the client is paying me for this week :) (Anybody remember Professor de la Paz from "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", who would agree to teach anything, and did it by staying a day ahead of his students?)

And yeah, I'll probably subscribe to a magazine or three, and maybe buy the occasional book that I'd like to read but not own a physical manifestation of.

Isn't this the same "It's shiny!" early-adopter syndrome that led bunches of us to buy 770s, 800s, and (soon) 810s?

- Dennis Brothers

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Paying $400 for the privilege of paying for books and even paying for things one can get for free on the Net is not particularly thrilling to me.

I like the idea of the print technology, and I understand that a number of other companies are working on it too. Maybe this sort of thing will be available at a reasonable price some time. As it stands now, you could almost buy two N800s for the price of one Kindle.

BTW: A lot of wrox books are available as pdf's. I guess it's worth $400+ to read stuff in nifty black and white.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Brothers, I'll be really interested to hear how you get on with the Kindle. Can you post here once you get it?

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Nitpick I know but my screen has rather more than 800 by 480 pixels and a 4+ inch screen. Browsing may be better on a 770/800/810 than many other handheld devices but it is still not desktop quality by any means.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

You are running on the assumption that the books you want will
1) be available for the Kindle
2) be readable on the Kindle

Those assumptions are unproven.

I have an iLiad - a more high-res eBook reader based on better display technology than the Kindle - and I have yet to be able to do what you want to do with the Kindle.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

As to (1), there are enough of what I need already available to significantly lighten my load, and the trend appears to be positive.

I don't understand (2), in light of (1).

As far as your closing comment is concerned, I'm not familiar with the Iliad, but I'd guess the problem is that it wasn't developed and supported by the most successful bookseller on the planet :) (just joshing - not trying to rile you).

- Dennis

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

It has to do with how eBooks are formatted.

PDF files, for example, are electronic versions of print works. They are formatted for a specific paper size. If you are trying to read a PDF on something smaller, the PDF often ends up being unreadable - either because the font is too small or because you end up endlessly scrolling (which is painful on slow eInk screens) to read everything.

Just because a book is available in electronic format doesn't mean it will be as readable as the paper version.

Getting back to the Kindle in particular, the screen is significantly smaller than a normal tech book. So imagine your tech books shrunk down to that screen size. The text will probably come out OK, but will the code examples fit on the screen? Will the images be clear now that they are smaller?

Grabbing a reference book from my bookshelf at random - the Perl Cookbook - If the book were shrunk to the size of a Kindle screen, the code examples would become very hard to read, as would any table of output. So the value of having such a book on my eBook reader would be very low.

As for the iLiad, imagine what the Kindle would be like if the screen were significantly larger and it used WiFi instead of EVDO and, unlike the Kindle, supported open file formats.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Didn't Sony make a "reader" like this one? what ever happened with that? I would consider something like this if it could read and SEARCH a pdf out of the d*mn box.

And what is so friggin hard about a search function!??!

Some useful links here such as reading feeds for free and what not.
http://kindlehacks.blogspot.com/

Unfortunately PDFs have to be be converted. I don't know about other people but for me that isn't an option. I need the table of contents and most of the PDF features. They never convert correctly and even if they did I wouldn't want to convert hundreds of PDF files one at a time to make sure they convert correctly.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Revisiting this thread, I think it's fair to say that the Kindle has not flopped, as some predicted, and its price unfortunately hasn't dropped a bit. People I know are still buying them.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Sony did make a reader and it is still available here. It can read PDF files directly according to the specs - not sure about searching them.

I've started using my n800 for reading PDF files and it works okay although when scrolling using the d-pad I find that it sometimes keeps scrolling once I let go until I press one of the buttons again.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

The Kindle includes a very basic web browser that uses Whispernet (Sprint EVDO), but it is essentially a dedicated ebook reader. Its 6" 4-greyscale screen (portrait mode) is as wide as a N810 in landscape mode and twice as high. So one Kindle page equals two FBReader N8X0 pages. One downside of E-Ink is that refreshes are slow, so zooming and panning isn't really an option. So the smaller N8X0 can be better for reading standard sized PDFs (which have to be converted for the Kindle anyway).

The Sony PRS-505's screen is the same size as the Kindle's, and very recently it was upgraded with Adobe Digital Editions. This reads DRMed Adobe PDF ebooks (and standard PDFs) by "reflowing" them. It probably now has the best PDF viewer on a 6" E-Ink device.

Since the Sony PRS-505 is running Linux, Adobe could port Digital Editions to the Nokia tablets. They would probably only do so if they had a deal with Nokia - although they do make money from each Secure Adobe ebook sold (and more reading devices means more ebook sales).

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

One point regarding screens; the N800 is 800x480, while the Kindle is 600x800 -- the linear resolution is about 75%, which means you may have to use larger fonts. If the Kindle were, say, 1024x768, it would be completely equivalent to 2 screens' worth, but as it stands sufficiently sharp-eyed (or habitually close-to-face) readers could get more like 1.25 worth. I, BTW, fall into those categories (a bit of both) so the current generation of ebook readers aren't very tempting to me. Next generation, I expect, should match the tablet's resolution (DPI), and I'll be much more tempted.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I think you meant to say 768x1024

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Good point. A color LCD screen may be able to do better anti-aliasing of fonts as well.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I got the update, Kindle 2.5, today and its Internet connection is noticeably faster and ihe browser is improved. That's not bad for a payment of $0 a month forever.

The text to speech seems improved also, but that could be my imagination. I greatly prefer the female voice to the male.

I could tweet nicely and typing on the Kindle 2 keyboard and big screen seems more comfortable than on my beloved N900.

I didn't test extensively, but I had the feeling I would be able to access lots of websites happily.

Just for kicks I tried playing video with no luck.

For me, the Kindle plus the N900 and prepaid Tmobile make up a dynamic lowcost combo.

Note: I'm not using the Kindle international version and so the free provider is Sprint rather than AT&T.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

I was just reading an article about the Kindle Fire in which it is commented that it has upended the Tablet world -- and it isn't even a (real) tablet.

And I was re-rembering arguments here about what the forthcoming N900 should look like, and to the idea that it should be bigger because a lot of people like to read books on it. One person in particular kept saying that book readers were just a niche product, and Nokia shouldn't go after that insignificant market.

The powers that be apparently agreed wholeheartedly with that argument, because Nokia soon abandoned tablets and the word tablet was even removed from the name of this site, because Nokia so completely rejected the idea of developing tablets.

I wonder where that guy who was so convinced larger devices were a waste of time went? He disappeared from this site long ago.

And I wonder what Nokia would now give to own the niche market Amazon built with its tablets?

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Amen to that. I was one of those people that was disappointed that the N900 went with the 3.5" screen. I remember thinking at the time that another 0.5" on the N8x0 screens would be just about perfect. Although I think it is the Samsung Note and not the Kindle Fire that seems to be the better successor to the NITs...shame about the OS though.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Most of what's said in these forums is honestly against the grain of pending trends and tends to fit under the category of geek whims - which usually equates to about as far away from mainstream (read: stuff that sells in huge numbers) as possible.

Since I've been here, a large portion of what people say should be done to satisfy their needs which are... quite niche it seems.

Re: Amazon Kindle
 

Can't really agree with you here. What Geneven is referring to was the upset when Nokia dropped the NIT 4.1" screen to 3.5", which was the size of the iPhone and pretty much all other screens at the time. But then, shortly after that, 4"+ screens became pretty common for the high-end. Instead of leading, Nokia chose to copy, and then found that copying was following, and then found that "following" put them (surprise!) behind.