Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Got my N810 yesterday. Since I had already put OS2008 on my N800, I was anxious to try the new stuff on the N810. So I eagerly tried out the navigation software. I have really put Maemo Mapper to good use on my N800 with a Holux GPS Slim 236 and loved it.

What a bust! The software isn't just bad -- it stinks! Among the many problems:

• Slow update. The software is always 50-100 feet behind. This means it misses streets by half-a-block. The frequency of sampling the GPS info is really slow. This happened with both the internal GPS and with my external Holux unit.
• Crappy maps. While they were (mostly) accurate, the maps had a very coarse level of detail -- at all levels of zoom. I am used to Google maps from Maemo Mapper, which were much better. I'm describing the way the maps are drawn -- the streets were too wide, for instance, way out of perspective.
• Annoying annotation. Street names are only available at low levels of zoom. When they are available, they are generated dynamically and move around as the crosshairs that track postion move. Trying to read the moving type can be difficult.
• Dizzying rotation. If you don't fix north and let the map rotate, it stops at crazy angles and moves in choppy jumps.
• Paying for service. I believe the price of the N810 was higher than that for other tablets at introduction in part because of the nav software. Well, we only got half of the software. The routing and directional navigation is a purchased item and not even available yet. Sigh.

So...for me, the nav software is a bust. Give me Maemo Mapper any day. When Maemo Mapper can use the internal GPS (maybe it can now...I haven't checked), Nokia should throw out the Wayfinder stuff and pay Gnuite the big bucks for licensing his expertise.

What do the rest of you think?

-- Mike

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I agree, and I have _bough_ the Navicore software for N800. It works perfectly on highway and cities.

But it's the worst thing, can ruin your trip if you are planning a trip from Paris to Wien.
Let me explain: it splits maps into regions (for memory savings and to use kinder-garden programming style)
Now, paris is in one region - France, Wien is in another region -German Alps. So it CANNOT plan a route. I have choose Strasbourg as a border point to pass into Germany. Now this is a city (and it has streets also).
I want to go to .... Wien ... but thats wrong ... not such city. Ok then ... Berlin ... wroooooooooong ... ok i want to go east ... ... too many exits :(

So ... luckily i have some basic nav/geo knowledge ... i know there should be a river to be crossed ... and then i have searched for the nearest bridge (east .... don't forget east ). So now i have again some routing through the streets of Strasbourg and luckily i dindt get lost.

In Germany it worked flawlessly, job done. Quick recovery when choosing the wrong exit ... etc etc .. but the regions problem really sux

it's worth buying, except the region thing.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Mike, this is the exact reason I decided on a N800 vs the N810. I think the additional charges for GPS service are unconscionable.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Rudely said: Navigation software is intended for the geographically challenged, and as such, it tends to deliver results that please the disoriented - with cutely misproportioned graphics, all kinds of directional cues and icons, and nagging voices telling you where to go. If you are a good navigator, they will always be later than you...

GPS map software, on the other hand, is for skilled map readers - much better than paper in that you can carry more (and more special) maps with you, that your position is self tracking and that the destination is flagged. But the navigation is up to you, and if you don't know how to read a map, you'll be still SOL...

Sevo

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I didn't experience anything near that severe. The timing was rarely off by much when I used it. Detail looked crisp and clear for me at all levels. And I don't sweat the lack of visible arterial street names at wide zoom-- the map would be a cluttered mess otherwise. ANY map for this purpose.

The issues I had were already reported but I'll briefly repeat here:

-app crashed twice
-satellites slow to lock
-voice gave wrong instructions at one point

I also don't really have an issue with the fees. I think they're very reasonable, and it's unrealistic to expect EVERYTHING to be free. There are significant costs involved with obtaining and maintaining the required data.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

The app GUI in 2008 is a big improvement over the Navicore app in 2007 & 6.
Seeing this makes me hopeful that more improvements will come with a larger user base.
The street labels may have to do with cache management and that can easily be improved.
A utility to "stich" together multiple maps will pro'lly come too based on my observations of how other navigation software has evolved.

I can now do more with it than I could when I first got it >> http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=11911
... I expect in another month or 2 we will be able to do even more.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I am developing 2 interactive 3D generation navigation systems for Vateq and Teleatlas and do hope to get my high-tech 3D navigation projects financed both by Navteq andTeleatlas in 2 million $ challenge.

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I never thought about the fact that the nav software might be hiking the price up by a lot... if that's the case, leave the hardware in place, and make it a separate bundle... for what I'd use it for I'd be aces with Maemo-Mapper.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

It is ok to pay for value added but routing and voioce commands are already offered by all embedded car navigation devices - price starting from $100.
So what you get is not added value.
Obtaining and maintaining required data (meant maps, POI, routing)
is financed by maps updates.

There is already a number of virtual navigation systems on a market oferring no maps but device generated roads graphics from vector data delivered to navigation device by GPRS, cell phone connected and always on.
WayFinder, NaviExpert and others.
But what you pay is for data transfer only, not for routing data, voice commands.

It is ok if you have flat-rate and always on, as on connection lost your gps navigation generates nothing, no streets, no voice commands, no routing, as no maps are preloaded on memory card.

Darius
Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Ok. MaemoMapper is great great great application, great implementation.
Unfortunately it works with Google/MS/Yahoo/ OSM maps downloaded from the Internet and out free access to maps can be restricted or cut off any time.
Navit is another navigation application to work for Linux , based on Garmin maps read from memory card.
It offers routing and voice commands as any embedded navigation device and no Internet connection is required to have it working.

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I doubt that it is. It pro'ly is a wash as far as their model may be concerned. The "free" software will promote sales of the pay for play software.

I have a gut feeling that this won't be the last we see of this business model and I suspect there will be a few others who will give us "free" crippleware in order to create this new class of con$umer device.

The hardware is, what it is and the current price of an N800 is a dang bargain. I would think that the transmissive/reflective screen was the most costly new addition.
...even so, Nokia is starting out giving a discount on the N810 bringing the price down to arround $409 for most.

The N800 stayed at full retail from all suppliers for at least a couple of months.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

To be precise, it costs $8.2 Billion Dollars to acquire the data...but now that Nokia owns Navteq I am going to have very high expectations for their mapping packages. Thus far, Nokia's GPS solutions have uniformly sucked, both in terms of sub-par GPS performance, lousy software and poor map sources. It seems like half the people on this board spend their time being Nokia apologists. Nokia does a lot of things right and attention should be called to those things, but equally one should call a spade a spade.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Maps can be cached. OSM is under a CC license (so even if they die, you could legally set up your own server with their data), and MM can handle GIS maps as well (most GIS servers are operated by governmental agencies, under the FOI act or similar rules, so their data can't get lost over a change of license either). Besides, with that amount of free map data about, even if Google, MS and Yahoo revert to non-free business models, many other services would immediately step in.

The point against Maemo Mapper is another: It is no navigation software, and until something similar to OSM with a focus on routing metadata takes off, it won't be good navigation software, no matter what effort MM itself would make at it - routing without up-to-date congestion rates, construction sites and the like is barely more efficient than following signposts.

Sevo

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

What you mean is not a cost to acquire the data but a sum paid by the highest bidder in auction to acquire Navteq corporation.
Value of maps is much less or to say in other words, has been overvalued.
But, on the other hand, TomTom also paid a lot of money to acquire TeleAtlas.

Buy want counts is not maps but market share in vector maps world.

I am sure, you are aware, maps are not build by cars travelling each new build road in the world.
Road tree system in electronic form is available for purchase from Highways authority in each specific country so to have your maps updated maps developer doesn't have to visit each new built road and enter it separately into navigation maps repository.
He buys a ready made product in electronic from from roads administration.

Another way is to have satellite nimages converted into vector maps
and have road extracted from satellite images.
I worked for CT /USG tomography projects and intelligent image processing of medical images shows you how to have roads only extracted from satellite images.

Finally, you can get and use maps for free visiting Google maps/ Google Earth, Yahoo maps, MS maps web servers.
You can get free maps from open source maps projects like OpenStreet and others.

So maps have some value but to use them you don't need to pay much.
Some car navigation systems in US start from as low as $100.
(road maps + routing + voice commands + hardware).

Maemo Mapper is based on maps accessed through Internet (Google, Yahoo, OpenStreet and others) and using it you pay nothing.

So maps business, navigation business sometimes generates no profit at all as there are hundreds of gps car navigation devices and systems on the market nowadays.

Darius

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

1. US is the only place with free map data. At least in Europe finding anything usable is pretty much impossible...
2. Google, MS and Yahoo already have non-free business models -- cacheing their data in Maemo Mapper is infringing copyright, no doubt about it. Openstreetmap and (US) public data are the only legal options. If they (Google et al) could prevent leeching maps without side-effects, they would.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Well, it sounds like folks here have some high hopes for the future of nav products on Nseries devices. That's encouraging.

And I'm reminded even as I am complaining about it that the business model for nav software on other Nseries devices -- I also have an N95, for example -- is the same. Map data is there, but actual navigation costs.

If someone wanted to buy the N810 now for the navigation capability -- part of the reason I wanted it -- I'd advise them to stick with the N800. It's not worth it for a built-in GPS -- at least not now.

But, YES, there are lots of other reasons to grab an N810....:D

-- Mike

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

And I think when and if some activate and use the navigation software they may be disappointed that it doesn't have all the features of a comparably priced, purpose built navigator like TomTom or Garmin.

The point is that the Tablet itself should lead the purchasing decision...

That is; it is a well featured, portable, internet access device that can also be used as a navigator.

I would not consider it a navigator that can also be used to access the internet.

The plus for me is that future features and improvements of the navigator app can more easily be implemented running on the tablet.
A purpose built navigator on the other hand, has just the amount of hardware required by the app by economic design... Not much more is available for future features and improvements.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Hell, I'd be happy if my N800 with the new os would see my gps more than once! I know it's still really not supported hardware/software combination, but if this is how it's going to be when it really is supported, I'm going back to the current os. The mapping software really does suck though. Waaay out dated, at least in my area. The roads aren't even named right! According to the map, I live out in the middle of a field. My house was built in '82.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I'll call you on that statistic, Rocket. Your perception is far from reality... especially given that well over half the people on this board don't even post. :p

And in all seriousness, you're doing your best it seems to skew the perception hard toward one extreme. Someone has to balance pure negativity, seeing as how any extreme outlook is unrealistic. IF that effort turned out to be 50/50, what would the problem be, exactly? It would look fair to ME... ;)

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

IMHO, map data IS indeed also built by cars travelling the roads - at least in densly populated areas with much restricted roads. This is the only way to collect reliable, detailed information. (A friend of mine used to be such a driver...)

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Data generally are royalty-free (but aren't freely accessible, and O&S boards will often charge a fortune for delivering them), while end-user-ready maps often aren't. But a growing number of O&S boards are setting up GIS servers - for example you can access O&S maps of all of Germany at 1:25000 to 1:100000 resolution though the state and federal GIS services.

Sevo

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Ok. You are right. Map data is also built by cars travelling the roads and is the way Google is building StreetView database.
I prepared Maps Interactive Update Proiject for Maemo challenge at maemo.org as Navteq developer, unfortunately maemo project manager from Nokia three times denied my access to maemo.org, telling there were already thousands of developers logged in (and only 500 N810s to be donated to developers).
So Nokia is not especially interested in development of interactive maps data involving community support.
So I am face-lifting, upgrading and managing some other maps data projects involving community interactive support.

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Hi there I'm looking forward to buy N810, so far I have e few major questions about the built in GPS - what is the chipset ?Anybody have an Idea ? Can I use Tom Tom 6 software for Symbian with this tablet ?
Angel

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I have already returned my N810. The major reason for me was the GPS and WIFI, when I found out the routing and the voice-guided turn-by-turn navigation in Nokia N810 is a purchased item, I decided to return my N810 and settled for a $135 GPS from Garmin, with voice-guided turn-by-turn navigation, but no wifi - well I have my Blackberry. The n810 without a GPS system doesn't justify the $479 price tag.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Gumentite_Mecheta, the Nokia Tablets run a version of Linux, not Symbian.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Ah, well. Maps aren't enough. It's tougher to write good navigation software than many people think. Sounds to me like TomTom solved the problems reported in Navicore years ago. For example, my 2004 version of TT comes not only with regional maps, but also with a special map called 'major roads of Europe', and to navigate from Paris to Wien (Vienna) you just load mjoe and off you go. Then, if you need to go to some minor road not covered in mjoe when you're near your target you just switch to the local region. I believe it's an even smoother operation in newer versions of TT (I bought TT5 too but as I'm happy enough with the older version I've yet to install it).

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Just my two cents worth. I purchased a 700 a few months ago, and was saving up to purchase the NavKit from Nokia when they pulled it. I presume because WayFinder bought Navicore, and Nokia bought Navteq. I was able to download the Navicore software and install on the 770, during the attempts to validate the key code I put in (Navicore will not sell me a key code) I was abel to "see" my GPS receiver and was able to locate me correctly on the map. I live in Ontario Canada.
It seemed to work OK, but as I said Navicore would not sell me a key and well Nokia were just as unwilling. If it was a cell phone no problem. Has anyone gotten NavIt to work, I am not a linux guy and the compile just gave me errors.
Would anyone that is unhappy with their Navicore be willing to sell me the key code and DVD, I need nothing else...

Thanks

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

My problem with MaemoMapper is that it is using graphical images of maps rather than vector data. This is about 10 times larger (or more) in file size. Since I drive most of California I would need about 10 gigabytes just to hold SOME of the levels of detail that I would truely want to have.

That is where NaviCore or whatever it is called would probably shine. But, in the videos of this program, it's too dang slow to find any POI's. My older Pocket PC/GPS combo with Mapopolis (now out of the consumer level business) gave me tons of configurable options for road detail, zooming, POI's for a great price. It seems using the Nokia N810 and its mapping solution is a downgrade.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

... or in its infancy. It's likely that the quality of software will improve in the future!


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

The POI problem has been resolved in OS2008. It now default opens with a list within approx. 50 miles to the displayed map location. In the Navicore version it would search and attempt to load every POI location if you didn't specify a proximity first.

POI's now are quite useful on the thing. :)

>> http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=11911

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Ok. Nokia couldn't support development of Maemo Mapper as maps came from Google/Yahoo/MS/ OpenStreet, Nokia's competitors on a maps and navigation market.
Nokia has no previous experience with navigation.
Marketing campaign targeted businessmen who bought N95 and N95 8GB to install navigation software.
It works fine as gizmo but is not true navigation.

Nokia lost her chance to make money in navigation market.
Maps alone generate no profit.
Maps installed on cell phone don't generate profit too.
Nokia's products are very inpensive in Europe,
Nokia 95 8GB at $1300 in Vobis network.

Low quality navigation in E-Series phone generates no profit.
There are already hundreds of embedded car navigation devices on a market , some priced as low as $100.
Nokia has lost that market forever.

Pay-per-track navigation is to expensive.
N770, N800, N810 is not commercial products.
Nokia tablets are hgigh-end products for Linux/Debian fans only.
Windows Mobile fans prefer ASUS, Samsung with TV out.

I don't see any chance that situation can improve any time in a future.
US with 3G WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS, 16GB iPhone to be released early 2008
will not buy Nokia navigation any more.

Europe with overpriced Nokia products will give up local Nokia products
and starts private import from US
( US N95 8GB $600 vs. EU N95 8GB at $1300).

N770, N800, N810 is still by-product, to complicated for Windows Mobile fans, to complicated for Symbian fans, to expensive for Linux fans.

I wish Nokia all the best but market situation is getting only worse, as embedded car navigation products from Asia, US are so getting so cheap, Nokia has no chance to compete in Asia, US or on European market in the field of car navigation.

Price is what makes you next buyer.

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

I knew it would only be a matter of time! :)


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

My dear friend,

TomTom is already out of navigation business with old-generation embedded navigation devices based on RDS-TMC road data.

As you see, Navicore, WayFinder, Nav4All, NaviExpert, Maemo Mapper, Navit, Nokia maps, Google maps, Yahoo maps, MS maps and others,
all they come with virtual navigation, vector maps, generated by server and downloaded to navigation cell phone or PDA, tablet.

Communication is two-way, duplex over GPRS enabled cell phones.

Its is very badly vector maps systems - Navteq has been acquired by Nokia, having no experience with navigation and TeleAtlas by TomTom having no experience with cell phones.

We should give up an idea to of buying a new navigation in 1-2 years time to let new owners of vector maps systems to develop new 3D generation navigation systems, software, equipment.

Wjhat is already offered on a market are 5-years old systems, navigation ideas, 20 years old navigation, routing algorithms.

Nothing new can be expected over next 1-2 years.

Developing 3D generation navigation systems is not very complicated.
The only probvlem is no market demand for new, expensive systems and charging plans. Pay-per-route can't work as long as you get free routing from your $100 navigation devices with voice commands.

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Just a clarification here....

Technically, OpenStreetMap is the only officially supported map source for Maemo Mapper, and it is free, and my communications with them have implied that they will always be available freely for use by Maemo Mapper. Maemo Mapper complies with OpenStreetMap's license and is not infringing on their copyright.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Thanks.
Does it mean using Maemo Mapper with Google/MS/Yahoo maps
can infringe on their respective copyrights ?

Darius

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Read the Maemo Mapper License:So yes, if YOU use it with commercial repositories then YOU are violating their copyright. It has nothing to do with Maemo Mapper, it's all on your shoulders Darius. Shall we notify them about you? ;)

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Is it me or is there no way to have any street names visible in 3D view? I've zoomed and zoomed and zoomed...

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

They appear as you approach them as I recall.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Darius,
Whatever you say. But it doesn't change the quite common opinion that TT navigation software runs rings about most other efforts, with the exception of certain special cases where some of the others have an advantage. And TT has been working well on cell phones for quite a while (in fact a little too good, they're moved most of the effort there to the disadvantage of PDA users). And I still don't believe that ..developing 3D generation navigation systems isn't .. complicated. (Edit: For a moment there I thought you meant 3D, as in 3 dimensional view as in TT and others, I assume you meant 3rd generation. My comment still holds I think.) If it were true, everybody would be doing it. And they aren't. I've seen so many high-prized, big, good-looking, but badly working navigation systems. From the built-in, $3500 systems of cars to Hertz Neverlost (more known as Everlost): They are not good. There are very few good navigation systems on the market, at least when you look outside some single specific attribute.

Re: Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software
 

Dang, I was downloading maps for West USA and it kept stopping at different points saying something like "Unable to download map" (I have 1.7 Gig free on the internal card). I exited the program eventually after trying for hours. The program wouldn't start up after this point. It just goes white for about 10 seconds and then back to the hildon desktop. So, I unloaded "Map" from the application manager, thinking I could just re-install it. But, it's not there.

Any thoughts where I can re-download the map software again? :confused: