Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

Just bought a Holux M1000 for $40, and man, there is absolutely no comparison to the built-in crap in N810 that Nokia calls GPS.

The Holux ALWAYS gets a fix within 30-35 seconds (even in the basement of my two story house). The 30 second figure is for a cold fix. If the unit has been off for a only a few minutes, it gets a fix in 3-10 seconds.

My N810 just took 3 minutes and 10 seconds to obtain a fix in my living room close to a large window. Then I shut N810 off for 10 minutes and tried to obtain a fix again. It took over 3 minutes. It appears that N810 tries to do a cold fix most of the time. Why Nokia, why?

In addition, the Holux typically sees twice as many satellites, and the signal strength is significantly better.

The Holux cost $40. After subtracting the cost of the battery, marketing costs, distribution, etc, the cost of the MTK GPS chip cannot be more than $10. The Holux is also very power efficient as it lasts over 20 hours on a relatively small battery.

Why Nokia did not use this chip in N810 is beyond me. Instead they went for the crappy TI GPS 5300 chip, which is also in their N95 and E90 phones.

Regardless of the chip, it appears that there is a problem with the GPS software. There is really no reason not to do a warm fix after only 10 minutes. I will open a bug.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

My guess is that that is why; they have used it as their primary GPS chip, so why switch now? Maybe they are getting a better deal by buying larger quantities of chips.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I have an M1200 on order, to replace my aging TomTom Mark I Sirf II GPS.

I was also one of those contributing to the (as it turned out) myth that the N810 contained a SiRF star III GPS chipset. Of course now there's nothing to find, but at that time I could swear it was actually printed on a Nokia specs page. Now all I can find is 'Built-in GPS receiver'. In any case I'm sorry to have contributed to the confusion.

Big mistake by Nokia to use that TI chipset. Really, for a built-in GPS the _only_ useful chipsets are either the SiRF star III or the MTK chipsets, because with the other old-style chipsets you really need to be able to put the GPS receiver in a place with good reception. With a built-in GPS you don't have that flexibility. You must therefore have one of those hyper-sensitive chipsets where optimum signal reception positioning isn't critical.

(My old TomTom Mark I SiRF star II is actually fine, because I can position it just where it's possible to receive the signal - e.g. in that specially-made spot in metal-containing windscreens made for toll gate transmitters and the like. Not possible with a built-in GPS. I'm getting a new BT GPS simply because the power-on button on my old one is poorly designed and it accidentally turns itself on when I carry it or travel with it, resulting in an empty battery on arrival.)

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I think I read somewhere that the TI chipset has exceptionally low power requirements.

What is the battery capacity of the Holux. Could give a clue as to what inpact a "powerful" chipset would have.

I also assume size has something to do with it. Needs to be compact to fit inside an N95/N810.

Zuber

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

The M1000/M1200 Holux GPS chipsets (MTK something) are also low-power chipsets. The quite small M1200 with a MTK MT3318 chipset should last up to 23 hours according to specs (with the battery in the M1200. I don't know its capacity but the M1200 is only 67 × 23 × 16 mm so the battery is pretty small).

The Freedom keychain GPS'es are even smaller and must thus have a very small battery, apparently they last some 9-10 hours still. They use a SiRF star III chipset though. That MTK chipset in the M1200 is supposed to be one of the chipsets with the lowest power requirements. Don't know how it compares to the TI chipset, but as the TI one apparently is pretty bad for its main purpose (lock to GPS satellites) it doesn't really matter if its power consumption is low..

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I have a Holux M 1000 as well and love it. Amazingly fast time to first fix, excellent receive sensitivity, locks tons of sats and they stay locked even in very challenging conditions. The built in GPS of the N810 and N95 (which I also own) is an absolute joke. They are next to useless for any practical use.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I have a Globaltop and it seems to work as well as the Holux (but at 5Hz!).

I'm not sure the times don't represent the lower sensitivity. Open any external GPS and you will find a 2cm x 2cm x 3-4mm strip antenna. Try removing that and see how fast it gets a fix. You can't put that into a tablet.

You could put the MTK chip in, but it would eat even more power (and mapping programs also tend to eat the battery), and it might perform worse without a good antenna.

There are GPS repeaters, and I wonder how fast the TI would get a fix if one of these were used.

I consider it a nice backup GPS, but if you are going to use it seriously, there are very inexpensive bluetooth devices (the GTop 5Hz base model is $50, and for $20 more you can get an ultrathin model - buygpsnow.com has them - and a HUD version).

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I think the answer for Nokia is to impliment A-GPS in the same way they have for the N95/E90. It "should" be straight forward for them.

It would require internet access, but since the N810 is designed to be used with access to the net (WiFi) or Bluetooth, that should not be a problem most of the time.

On the N95, people reported lock times dropping from 5 mins to sub 30 seconds. Which is what we want.

Where is the best place to go, to suggest implimentation of A-GPS to Nokia ?

I think, if enough people did request it, it would rise up the issues list quite quickly...

Zuber

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

The biggest advantage of MTK-based receivers is that they can track 30+ satellites simultaneously. This is what's responsible for 30 second cold starts -- the unit doesn't need to know where in the world it is, as it can track all (or most) satellites simultaneously. The N810 chipset can only do 12 satellites. So it needs to try the first 12 satellites, then try another 12 if the first 12 don't result in a fix, etc.

As I mentioned before, it appears that N810 does cold starts more often than is necessary (e.g. after a 10 minute period of inactivity). Has anyone noticed that the satellite status page of the map program rarely knows what satellites should be visible before a fix is aquired? It's almost as if it ignores available ephemeris/almanac data. In contrast, my 4-year old Garmin can plot visible satellites even after it's been off for a couple of weeks.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I must be missing something very obvious: which GSM-circuit is built into the N810?

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

It isn't.

I thought the A-GPS on the N95 pointed to Nokia servers somewhere and so needed an internet connection, not a gsm connectuon (other than for the internet). Used to download sat. info, I assume.

Perhaps someone with an N95 can disable the phone, enable WiFi and see if it helps.

If you need to use the cellphone location info, then I agree it gets more complicated.

Zuber

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

the Global Position System (GPS) consists of 24 earth-orbiting satellites, the satellites are not in geosynchronous or geostationary orbits and generally you can see no more than 12. and perhaps as few as four. though sirfstariii can receive weak signals and perhaps see several satellites even while buried on your cellar, only 4 or 5 satellites are necessary for an accurate fix. and because houses tend to move very slowly they don't tend to benefit much from gps navigation devices. when the n810 is placed on the dashboard of a car or carried around outside it will probably work just fine.

taking 3 or more minutes for a satellite fix is a long time. my blue tooth gps receiver from nokia seems to take about 30 seconds, but it is usually on; because the battery life is excellent i rarely turn it off.

though the nokia receiver will get an accurate location fix from the cellar of our two story wood frame house, i notice it needs to be very close to a window when i use it in an airplane. (wow, 537 mph at 37,000 feet).

by the way, here's an interesting article on gps and relativity:
http://tinyurl.com/3yo9yt

john

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

There is hope for a speedier SiRF fix
http://www.trustedreviews.com/mobile...-Technology/p1

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

The site says something about "By not requiring any network connectivity or downloads, it significantly improves the daily navigation experience for consumers of mobile navigation devices."

So I think that suggests AGPS using downloads from the internet would be possible for the N810.

Still like to know where best to suggest it though. Would this be a Nokia thing a Maemo thing or is it all the same...

Zuber

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

There are actually 31 GPS satellites right now, and the number is growing every year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

Some satellites are in fact in geosynchronous orbits, such as #35, #47, #48, and #51. N810 doesn't see those as it doesn't support WAAS.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

Weird that ajax1's opinion of the GPS is completely different (except for the "maybe doing a cold start every time" bit). I'm not saying either one of you is wrong, just that there seems to be a wide range in opinion on the GPS performance.

ag2 suggests that the chip is not a SiRFIII but a low-cost TI GPS5300 like that found in the N95/E90. This is believable (if disappointing) because Nokia probably has a big bucket of them sitting around their assembly plant, but I didn't think gpsd supported this chip yet. Perhaps Nokia wrote their own driver...

Seems to me that if chip is a SiRFIII then the "problems" people are seeing are probably software (or antenna) and possibly solvable. If it's a GPS5300 then I'll just buy a Holux to wire into my car. Are there any online sites that opened up their N810's (a la Ars' vivisection reviews) so we can peek at the GPS chip markings?

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

It is a TI (I forgot who/how, but there are threads). /usr/sbin/gpsdriver translates the serial data (/dev/ttyS0? or is it /dev/pgps) into a NMEA stream on a pseudo-tty. gpsd is launched and on port 2947 works (as far as I checked) like the standard linux one.

Port 2947 is apparently local (lo/127.0.0.1) only but with proxy software (e.g. socat) you can send it to another computer.

The internal GPS apparently does NOT have WAAS or EGNOS to improve accuracy.

My short answer is if you don't just need GPS casually or infrequently, get a BT GPS (I have a G[lobal] Top G33, $49 incl shipping from buygpsnow - 5Hz; the G66 is a thinner version, and there is a HUD speed/direction version).

Even if they were to get a better chipset, they could not stuff an adequate antenna in there. I already have an external BT keyboard, a BT headset, and other extensions.

The internal GPS is like the internal keyboard - good for something quick, but not for advanced usage. Or the speakers - they work but aren't going to do justice to music. They've made it very easy to extend using a BT GPS, and they aren't that expensive.

Though I do appreciate the internal GPS as I don't always have my BT version with me.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

i have an iBlue 737 and it works flawlessly.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

To be honest, though I find the couple of minutes delay that you sometimes get in obtaining a lock annoying, other than that the internal GPS has performed fine for me so far.

Maybe I will run into trouble if I enter some high building areas while using it, I don't know.

But on all the runs I've used it for so far (hundereds of miles), it's been fine.

Just the initial lock time that is a problem. Hence my wanting A-GPS.

I do actually already have an external bluetooth unit, so not being tight or anything. Just don't find it worth the agro.

Might take it with me if I go on a hike some time. Perhaps being in the middle of a deep valley or something could affect the signal, but for the kind of stuff I do, I doubt it.

Reading through the A-GPS notes in the wiki, I still think that the N810 could benefit from it. Not sure if there would be a way of using the cellphone data through bluetooth, but it looks to me like a number of points mentioned would apply.

So back to my orig. question. Who/where does one go to request this enhancement. Nokia site, Meamo site ?

To be honest, having followed the N95, Nokia should be fairly upto speed by now about people complaining about slow lock times.

Thanks,

Zuber

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I found out that my Holux M1000 is quite unusable for voice navigation because the fixes from the device come 1-2 seconds too late (it is very weird but that is what I am seeing with the Holux). This also means that I easily miss turns when driving. The cold start speed, sensitivity and battery lifetime are very good with holux m1000.

I also have Nokia LD-3W, LD-4W and N810 internal GPS, and they work much better in this context and fixes come accurately in time when doing voice navigation.
The cold start time of internal N810 GPS could be better but after I have the fix, then it works ok.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I use both a Nokia and Holux GPS receiver with no problems... The LD-3W is kept in my wifes car and the m1000 is mounted in mine. My N800 is paired to both and will connect to either depending on what vehicle is used...

BTW, although the Holux can be used in "slave" mode with out pairing, it is pro'ly best to pair it first anyway.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

You are 100% correct. The chipset in the m1000 is designed to push 1hz. that is one update per second. It is a battery saving feature. There are other holux devices that use the sirf III chipset that have several updates per second. It is really just a trade off between battery life and accuracy. The unfortunate part is that the m1000 technically gets a better signal than any sirf III chipset device.

Hope this helps

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

Hi,
I'm glad this worked for you but for the life of me I can't get my N800 to work with the Holux M1000. I'm initially able to get the bluetooth connection going but withing seconds it disconnects. What steps did you take to get it going? I've loaded both the software on the mini Holux disk and the Linux driver download from the Holux website. Please respond soon - just started a new sales job and need this to work desperately. Many thanks in advance.

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

The software on the mini Holux disk isn't needed (or used - there's no linux driver there that would work on the N800).

I've only used my Holux (M1200, which is quite similar to M1000) with Maemo Mapper.
I simply do as follows:
- turn on GPS
- turn on BT on the N800 (with switchonbt - MM doesn't seem to automatically turn it on)
- start MM
- go into Settings
- GPS tab, choose Bluetooth, and Scan
- Select my Holux
- click OK
- select GPS
- select Enable

That's all. And after that it's just a matter of enabling/disabling GPS (unless I want to change to another GPS, e.g. my old one.)

Re: Comparing built-in GPS with Holux M1000
 

I just got the Holux M1000 and am trying to use it with Maemo mapper on my N800. It works great so far except I can't get the display to rotate as my direction of travel changes. The "help file" seems to imply that it should auto-rotate. Anyone know how to do this? Thanks.