Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

All,

I think we can all agree that the built in Navigation Software for OS2008 is terrible. As I understand it the nav kit for OS2007 is pretty much the same thing but worse. I recently stumbled across a really promising looking alternative called "Sygic". They make nav software similar to TomTom (for better or worse) but it runs on damn near everything (WinMobile, Symbian S60, ARM chips, xScale, Mips) They are rolling out a Linux and Blackberry version this month. The best part is that they have an SDK that will allow us to build custom modules.

So in summary, they already support n810 in theory (ARM/Linux). We just need to start some kind of email campaign to get them to offer a nIT specific version. Speaking for myself, it would be important to make sure they support the US but even if just the Europeans get it, I would consider that an improvement. This is not an open source solution but it is A solution. We have all been upset at the poor wayfinder offering, I say it is time we take some action and speak with our wallets.

I am including contact information for Sygic. Please email them and let them know we need a solution. Also, if you are so inclined, mention the desire to see US support.

support@sygic.com
sales@sygic.com
http://www.sygic.com/index.html

Thank you for your time, and please, if you agree: Participate.

Cheers,
James

Disclaimer. I am not affiliated with this company in any way. I wish I was though, so I could make them do this! Ha.

P.S. I have been a frequent reader of this forum but have never posted. I feel so strongly about this I created an account. Don't hold me low post count against me.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I wouldn't say wayfinder is THAT terrible, but more options are always better.
Interestingly: on their homepage is the picture of the N810! So, maybe they release something at CES? Who will visit their booth? :D

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Actually it is not n810. There is no Nokia labels and buttons on left are different and something is added to right.

But I think picture might be photoshopped version of n810.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

@Nikem: You noticed that "debranded" n810 as well? I agree that is encouraging. I agree that wayfinder is usable, but I am moving away from a standalone GPS and it is pretty bad in comparison. Wayfinder will often suggest routes that are clearly incorrect (eg east vs west) and worst of all, it will not share the secret route it plans to send you on. You just have to trust her. Add that to the poor US support (for the same price!) and they loose me as a customer. MaemoMapper is, in my opinion, a better alternative but is not quite a full featured Navigation tool yet. Thanks for the input and the keen eye!!

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

On closer inspection you are right, it is a photoshopped N810. At least they didn't clone the LED. :)

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

@james415
Maybe I'm not so underwhelmed by the wayfinder software beacause A) I'm located in Europe so the included maps could be better here and B) I hadn't had a standalone navi before so I'm not spoiled.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I concur... having spent the $249 for the Navicore kit almost a year ago, I have seen little or no improvement in it's anemic user experience...

I am particularly disappointed with how little of the tablets resources are used by Wayfinder. A good example is the screen real estate.


Wayfinder fills the screen with opaque indicators to the point where the actual viewable navigation map is smaller than a 3.5" TomTom or Garmin display.

This new product seems to do things much better >> http://www.sygic.com/oem/index.html and the code for the program and GUI looks like the same as OnCourse/iGo's Navigator.

As far as this is good if the original product cost is under $50.

I for one am tired of paying premium $$'s as an early adopter only to find that I actually just paid them to test Beta products..

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

A while ago I wrote a mapping application for the Zaurus for the USA using census databases and converting them into a very compact form (every line and polygon in just over 1Mb for all 50 states - I didn't get to text or POIs):

http://homepage.mac.com/tz1/.Public/zaurus/zmapper.tgz

(I've done a few bugfixes since, but haven't uploaded it, and there are new census databases so some URLs need changing).

Actually it is Qt(3), so will work on anything which has that installed - Linux, Mac (X - I need a real xor function to do the polygons), Cygwin. I've seen Qt for the Nokia, and was planning to give it a try.

I could port it to GTK. It isn't complete, but will show roads, lakes, rivers, cities, parks, etc. - every one in the census database and updates very fast and uses a very compact format. It saves the track and I used to wardrive with circles indicating the access points kismet for zaurus found. These are vector maps and no further downloads are required after the specific county is converted.

I may not have included the COPYING file, but it is under GPLv3.

Anyone want to help?

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I tend to agree with that. I think a lot of products are released before they are ready, with no thought to the early adopters who get screwed. The worst part is when navicore/wayfinder does not even use the opportunity to improve. There is no way I am spending $200 or whatever for wayfinder when it does not work well enough to use.

I forgot the best part. I wrote to wayfinder support and asked them why the standard cell phone product costs $99 for a lifetime license and the n810 product is $130 for a 3 year license. They said it is because the n810 has preinstalled maps. When I mentioned that preinstalled maps would lower their bandwidth costs (making the n810 version cheaper for them to support) they never returned my call. Basically, we take on the extra cost with a more expensive device and storage and they charge us even more. I further asked why Americans pay the same price even though all of the extras (traffic, cameras) are disabled. They told me that was my fault for living here. I actually have the email telling me to move to europe if I want my money's worth.

Awsome.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I think you guys are being a bit hard on Wayfinder.

I have used TomTom as well, and Though there are features on TomTom I like, there are others on Wayfinder I like as well. All in all, I find it usable and will probably subscribe.

There is of course, room for improvement. like 3D showing streets (though 2D is probably more useful to me)

Can't speak for what they offer in the US, but in the UK and most of Europe, in the price, they include 3 years of updates including:
Maps for quite a range of countries inclueing Most of Europe
Camera location updates
Traffic updates including traffic based routing

This last one for me, make the price sound quite attractive.

I'll probably be subscribing, and sending a list of enhancement requests.

Zuber

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

This sounds pretty cool. I am a Java developer by trade but I would love to try to help out with something like that.

cheers

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I guess bandwith costs is not their main concern. Navicore is licensicing the maps used by Wayfinder from another company. Maybe they have to pay higher licencings fees when selling a product that has complete maps preinstalled, compared to a product that is only downloding small parts of the map on demand...


Overall Wayfinder is ok, but it has some annoying shortcomings. e.g. when deliberately leaving the planned route to take a shortcut, Wayfinder is sticking much longer to the old route than many other products like Tomtom. Also the user interface uhhm.. can only get better. :)

Maemo Mapper on the other hand has some unique and very nice features (aerial photos...). But without vector maps and due to the missing ability to do route planning/rerouting without an internet connection it can hardly be called a navigation software.

So I think there is definitely a market for a good and usable navigation software on the N8x0. Judging from the presentation on their webpage, this Sygic stuff looks quite promsing.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I looked into it. They are the same maps. Not sure about the licensing costs but I suspect they are the same. I really think the just don't believe we are clever enough to figure out we are paying to be screwed.

Anyway, if you like the looks of that Sygic software, send them an email. Let's let them know we are an interested community. Even those who are not concerned with GPS should be trying to get companies to recognize the nokia I Tablets. Imagine all of the open source software currently being developed combined with all of the closed source options available to WM users, if you need them.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I also think the Wayfinder software is a joke. I'd pay good money for Garmin navigation software on N810. I'll go ahead and send an email to their customer support. Maybe they will be willing to port their mobile product.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Yes, for both products they are using Teleatlas maps (actually Teleatlas maps are also used for the Sygic products, so regarding data quality there shouldn't be any difference between Sygic and Wayfinder).

Teleatlas has a whole bunch of weird licensing schemes. They definitely distinguish whether you deliver complete maps to end customers or whether you setup an access on-demand service.


But who knows, maybe Nokia will come up with an own alternative to Wayfinder. After all Nokia has recently aquired Navteq, which is the main (only) competitor to Teleatlas.

Now that Navteq is part of the big Nokia family and Nokia therefore has own expertise, map data and solutions in the navigation area Navicore/Wayfinder doesn't fit into the picture anymore.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

[QUOTE=iskarion;121588]But who knows, maybe Nokia will come up with an own alternative to Wayfinder. After all Nokia has recently aquired Navteq, which is the main (only) competitor to Teleatlas.QUOTE]

Problem with that is, I've seen the Navigation software they offer with the N95/E90.

Compared to that, Wayfinder is truely amazing :)

Zuber

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I have to agree with Zuber. The map program on my n73 is almost unusable. It is interesting that Nokia is now in direct competition with the very product they pushed on us. Poetic.

I have calls and emails in to Sygic about the possiblity of an n8x0 port. I will post back if I here anything from them.

Cheers

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

And where does this leave the n800 users, who still have to download the maps from the internet and put them on their own card?

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

imho, any company that refuses to list the cost, makes you "jump thru hoops" and THEN states they will contact you...will never gain my trust nor business.

Poor customer focus...state upfront no downloads are allowed vs. download here, fill out information (for them to sell ??? use as they wish).:eek:

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

It appears Sygic is a new company that has not launched their product yet. The reason you don't see a cost is that they have not settled on an official pricing scheme. The download links are intended for journalists doing previews in blogs and magazines, hence the form to fill out. Does Apple let you download previews of OS X before MacWorld Expo?

I think you are mistaking poor customer service with a prelaunch product. They state on their website that they will be making some announcements at CES. I think that this is the ideal time to state our interest and get them to support the IT.

Cheers,
James

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Well, I got an email back from Sygic. Unfortunately, it was a courtesy type letter that said my request would be looked at be a technical member and they would get back to us as soon as possible. Has anyone else written in?

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Hell yeah! You know, if in US Wayfinder is «comme si comme sa» than in Russia it's holy goddamn piece of crap. I'm sorry, but street names in translit kills all gypothetic advantages of Wayfinder. I'm gonna buy the new navigation software if it can reach even 70-80% of TomTom or iGo. This gorgeous screen is deffinitely created for great navi soft!

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Ok folks, so here is the deal:

I have been corresponding with Sygic this week and I have things worked out. I have been testing the partner's version of the software for the laptop and windows mobile. It really is nice and works much better than wayfinder.

Here is the catch. I am the first person to approach them about developing a port for the n800/n810. As such, there would be some effort required to port the code and customize it for the device.

Here is the question I pose to all of you. Would you be willing to purchase a quality navigational software for the nIT at as low a price as possible? How much would you be willing to pay realistically. I am trying to figure out if there is anyway I can pay to have this ported through my own software development company in order to bring it to the market. I figured out my dead break even cost would be $52.30 for the first 10,000 licenses. Cheaper in larger numbers.

This is not the result I was looking for, but that is what it is for now. Sorry to disappoint anyone. Let me know what you think about this.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

For something equivalent to the Tomtom I currently have on my palm, I'd be willing to pay $100 dollars or so.

I'd be wanting a pretty polished product for that kind of money, though.

For something equivalent to Wayfinder, I'd be willing to pay in that 50 dollar price range.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Yup, the N8**'s were definitely made for something like this...


When I paid Navicore/Wayfinder $249.00 US last year I thought for sure they would have continued to refine it using all the features of the tablets..


...but No-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o!

They just took the money and ran...


No street names, no POI labels, and a map displayed in less space than a 3.5" toy. Hell, it doesn't even utilize the tablets full resolution.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I'm surprised that the cost would be that high just to break even, but I would probably pay up to $70--the limit being in part because I don't use GPS all the time.

Thanks for looking into this. I hope it works out.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I'm gonna pay a cost of good hardware GPS if the software would be in appropriate level (iGo, TomTom). I deffinetely doncare where to spend money, but N8** would be much more welcome!

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

The price may seem steep, but that is what things cost unfortunately. Actually, the price is a little high because of the development effort involved along with the license fees. On top of that, Teleatlas will charge me an addition $17 per head. As I said, it is not cheap, but it falls about in line with most of our other contracts and projects All said the development alone would be about $160k with additional cost for map licensing.

I like to do 2 in house products per year, in addition to the bulk of our revenue, contract development. Anyway, if there seems to be the right amount of interest I think this might be worth pursuing.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

This should be in the N810 or Apps forum to generate more interest.

160k for development, eh? I was under the impression that this is a completed app that shouldn't need much modification for the N810.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Well development is:

$ 29,418 for the alpha
$ 44,127 for the beta

$ 73,545 for the first 10,000 licenses and final customization

$ 150,000 for the accompanying 10,000 map licenses

It adds up.

I guess this should be in apps at this point, but the thread kind of turned as it grew. I am not really sure if it would be possible to move it to a new category.

Thanks

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I managed to get my mapping program limping using QT4 (why do they change the API?).

It does display the US census tiger maps (with zoom and pan), but the repaint isn't double-buffering like I want. It is slow (note it was designed for a Zaurus which is slower). That may be an artifact of all the layers it goes through and that I haven't even tried to fix the multiple repaints.

It does read and track the GPS as it is gpsd based.

I may put up an alpha/demo when I get a chance. And a screenshot or two.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

This is the first pass, and you will need to know linux and/or the n810 to get things going. Please feel free to start up something on the wiki. I've limited time, but this worked as proof of concept. (Maybe a full zaurus emulator...)

The program, starter data files, and the two Qt libraries (From http://tablethacker.com/kde.html KDE for the n810) needed are in:

http://homepage.mac.com/tz1/.Public/n810/nokqzmap.tgz

For more maps, you need a posix environment - cygwin, linux, or macosx and:

http://homepage.mac.com/tz1/.Public/n810/getmaps.tgz

It still really needs to be ported to GTK, and I need to get kismet for the n810 since that is already there, but it mostly works including GPS tracking. The READMEs are brief but should answer questions.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I can afford upto $150 for a good navigation s/w on my N800, but I hate recurring charges (like wayfinder's $130/every 3 yrs). I even don't mind paying to get an updated s/w version or maps whenever needed.

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

Isn't that what Wayfinder's $130 is covering?

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

When was the last time navicore/telenav had a good update? </rhetorical>

I am waiting to hear back from the contracts department over there so we will see what we can get moving. I am going to shoot for a price point of $49 one-time life-time transferable license. I don't see why every tablet user should not have what Nokia should have included for free anyway. Now the crap internal GPS receiver... you're on you own.

If all goes well I would like to see this happen by 2008 Q2. Thanks to everyone for input. Please feel free to keep posting suggestions or feature requests.

At this point things are really in their hands.

Cheers,
James

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I think this is a great idea, and thank you for the good work. I'd be interested in alpha-beta testing. I use an n800, os 2008, and a BT GPS (Holux).

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

First alpha, but useful release

http://homepage.mac.com/tz1/.Public/n810/tzmap01.tgz

And it will automatically download the map zip file for your location from the US Census bureau and convert them, it just takes a while (1/2-5+minutes) - you can watch in xterm. So as you drive (or scroll or zoom) it will pause to load and/or convert a new map. The startup defaults to a location where I have three preloaded maps. A README (very important to actually do it at this stage) is included. And of course you need an internet connection for the map download to work.

The conversion script (download, unzip, sort) and program (gather.c) are included if you want to do the maps on your linux box (or cygwin under windows, or an intel mac - ask if you need endian conversion).

And feel free to help me port it to GTK - the readme contains links to the source. Is kismet available (it does live wardrive mapping, at least on the zaurus)

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

I watched all these discussions about navigation software on Linux devices, on X86, Zaurus, Nokia internet tablets or similar.

All theses threads have in common, that the problem of having maps exists only in Europe not in the U.S. There are free maps and 'only' the software is missing.

So because of that you either can encourage a software company to port their navigation software to Linux and do a closed job. They have to decide if it's worth developing and most time definitely aren't interested in making the source open.
But this and the license should be no problem for you if you want working software now.

The other and a definitely good way is maemo mapper - take the maps from google or, virtual earth or openstreetmap, cache them and
that's it.
But maemo mapper is not so navigation friendly like TomTom e.g. is today and it will take some time to make it such 'car friendly'.
And maemo mapper uses google maps which are bitmaps (need spaaaaace). OpenStreetMap doesn't have the details yet.

But I found another approach on the net, too.
Write 'open' software and use the vector maps of a commercial windows navigation software.
If the navigation software supports different commercial vector formats you can also switch between the maps.

So perhaps is it worth to have a look at:

http://navit.sourceforge.net/

I bought a cheap navigation software from last year for Europe at ebay and give it a try.
It works good but it's officially still in alpha.

Screenshot
http://mineque.quanteam.info/navit/skin-greenie3.jpg
http://www.kazer.org/navit/navit-sdl.png
more by looking for pics with 'navit gui sdl'.

Regards,
asys3

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

There's also roadnav:

http://roadnav.sourceforge.net/

Re: Alternative GPS Navigation Software
 

It runs, but it really needs some optimization for the tablets, as it hogs resources, and option windows are too big.

The big plus with roadnav is the offline routing (not sure how well this works, though), I really hope someone can get it working better :)