770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Hello fellow 770 users. Feeling left out lately? I know I am. So far I've really begun to think that this great machine is forgotten by the community. So far the following software has been left off of the table (although promises have been made by some that the 770 would later be included) when it comes to software. Below are the ones I can think of. See if you can add anything to the list or let us know your thoughts:

KDE
Canola2
Maemo Mapper 2.2+
Skype

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

You can move to hacker edition and remove Skype, Maemo Mapper and maybe even Canola out of that list. KDE with 64MB RAM is IMO unreasonable.

Maybe you should change topic name to "OS2006 - the forgotten OS" :-)

And BTW you can get latest scummvm for OS2006 too ;-)

EDIT: but you can add new python release to your list
http://importluck.blogspot.com/2008/...4-15-01c3.html

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I do run OS2007HE. In my opinon, none of the apps above run without major configuration. I consider it major configuration because you have to at least have some knowledge of linux in order to make those apps run. Unfortunately, for the linux deficient (me), most of linux programming required to make these run is over my head.
BTW - Canola2 does not run on OS2007HE - "it's coming" according to them, but as of right now - we are once again left out on another newly release app.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

If i would have the 770 I would install debian armel port

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Oh I see. You are right. Both Skype and MM (or more correctly gpsd) need tweaking.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I sympathize, but to be honest, I have no personal need for those apps. There are several media players available, mapping I don't need, and I use Google Talk instead of Skype...

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

770 - the forgotten tablet?? I don't feel that way at all.
I am using OS2006 on 770 on MMS, I have no big problem (other than the WSOD I had last month, but got my brand new replacement few day ago). Now I am using Orb to watch my cable TV on it, plus streaming the music, my webcam, movies and pictures from my computer, it is so good to have a 4 inch TV in your pocket all the time. I am also using Grandcental and Gimzo to make free call to landlines, planning to use it to call my girlfriend during my vacation when I am in Asian in 2 weeks. Browsing the Internet is Ok, but not perfect only because some web sites use a lot of pictures and flash 9. I have installed OS2007HE on flash for a few days for dual boot, it might be better . I also installed Xmamo to play the old NES games. and Canola 1 to watch movies, play music and pictures on my 2G MMS card. The more I use it, the more I love it. Now I am just afraid the battery doesn't last me long enough for the whole day use.:)

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Fanoush, Canola2 is not running on the 2007HE since there is no inotify in the old kernel (but it should be, because inotify was introduced in 2.6.13). Do you know anything about this?

Until we have inotify or the canola mediascanner uses some other method to scan, we won't have Canola2

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I don't know about this but inotify seems to be added only with 2.6.18
http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_1...df5e6c1588733b

EDIT:
Hmm but when reading about it, it is really since 2.6.13, the part in 2.6.18 is just kernel api (i.e .for usage inside kernel). Maybe it is just not enabled in 2.6.16 in stock 770 firmware.

EDIT2:
No inotify is enabled in 2.6.16 so this is really strange, even if there is something missing in userspace in OS2006 it should still be in 2007 HEsince it is basically copy of N800 firmware with few tweaks.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I agree that the 770 is still an awsome device, but I have noticed that since the 800 has moved to the OS2008 along with the new 810, all of the NEW apps are geared toward those devices first, and it seems that the OS700HE users get promised that the apps will be compiled for our devices this is starting not to happen more and more. I understand that this is the nature of the beast and it's bound to happen just as it will happen one day with the 800 and 810 devices (we were also told that a version of OS2008 would be geared to the 770 and I haven't heard about any progress on that front either, so I'll add that to the list also).:

OS2008

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Yes, but isn't 2007HE using the OS2006 kernel?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Actually, the support we get from Nokia is better than I've seen for any 2 year old PDAs from other manufacturers. Try getting updates for a Palm without spending a fortune.. or finding quality software for PocketPC... it's no fun IMHO.

I've got a coworker who's gone through a 770, 800 and just got his 810 last week.. and while I really like the 810.. I still feel that I'm getting more than my money's worth with the N770.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

A word of sympathy. I entered the community with my purchase of the N800 but I must say I really liked the look of the preceding N770-The first inspiration. At a mere two years old I would not call that an old machine.
I have often felt that its those owners who are the 'early adopters' , the 'charter members', the 'core crew' and they still need to be nurtured, for it was they who made the first wave of interest gain momentum. An invaluable contribution! :)

While I am just a 'savvy' user, I had been able to keep my Treo650 going strong for me and I understand it has been around for about 4-5 years(or more?). I do hope some of measure of 'common user' support continues for the N770 crew. Surely their hardware has some good juice left for a few more tweeks?! :p

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Ha! I, personally, dropped that paperweight for the much, much more capable N800 and never looked back. :p

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

One area I find myself interested is the GUI and the possibilities for Themes.
Perhaps one area that the N770 gang could benefit, is with a 'face lift' for the GUI.
I know it doesn't address the issues of the more advance new software(ie Canola) but I personally found Zlauncher on my Treo re-invigorated my interest to continue using it with what I had in current compatible software.

There is a discussion going on pertaining to the possibilities of just that here:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ead.php?t=8705

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Sure enough! ;) Totally get ya. Love my N800, but not all of our community friends here can scrape up more dough for a new machine at each evolution.
I just gave a lady friend's Palm3 a little face lift tune up and she is thrilled. She has had it for quite a while and was basically content with it and I couldn't encourage her to a newer option.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

The 770 still has plenty of juice, but the main reason I was proud to own this device is because it is linux based. As a Windows user, one of the things lacking is a community "we're all in this together" sort of feeling. I always had the impression that other fellow Linux users would not be the type to abandon older devices as that is a very Window-sy type of thing to do. Microsofts message to their users is "upgrade to our latest software or we won't support you for much longer" I just hope that sort of cavalier attitude does not start make its way into our community. I love my 770 and I will keep it and probably not change to a 8XX anytime soon, but I want the Linux community to do what they are know for doing.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

This works on the 770...or at least with 2006OS which is what I'm using. As far as feeling left out, I had that feeling when the Nokia released the 800 and pretty snubbed its nose to all us 770 users. It was at that time I decided never to buy another Nokia product again. Fortunately the 770 still does what I need it to do and my next toy will probably be the Asus EEE. I also expect some competitive products to hit the market soon.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

ya like what, that it can run flash....big deal!

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I'm completely satisfied with my 770 and the 2006 operating system. It really does have lots of apps, many media players, text editors,paint programs,audio recorders, mapping software, book readers, messengers, calculators, and emulators. What more do you want

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Sorry - I just want the LINUX based community to live up to the expectations. Everything I heard about the linux community was about how much they support all linux devices. As I've mentioned before:
OS2008 has moved on and left N770 users out
Maemo Mapper has moved on to updated version with no OS2007HE version
Canola has moved on with no N770 version
No N770 for KDE
All you have to do is look in the apps section and you will see more and more NEW apps and UPDATED apps leave the N770 out. Eventually some "Windows" minded person will tell me to upgrade my tablet (hmmmm, sounds like what happened when Windows was growing - just throw away your old computer because it can't run the new OS or apps anymore) but that wasn't what I thought Linux based was about.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Good rant, but aimed at the wrong people. ITOS2008 is the responsibility of Nokia and Nokia alone and the main reason the programs you mention have left the 770 behind, is because the operating system isn't maintained to keep up with the new features of those programs.

Normally I'd agree that forced backwards compatibility is not a good thing, but common Nokia, the 770 is nigh on two years old, godsdammit! IBM continued to support OS/2 for almost ten years after they stopped even remembering what it was.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I would rather say that the support is typical of the Linux community ;). You can do many things, but it requires some (sometimes quite advanced) knowledge of how things work under the hood.

I have Maemo Mapper working on my 770 with OS2007HE thanks to someone in these forums.
If the people at the INdT are right, Canola 2 for OS2007HE is a matter of time, and if you are really desperate for it you could install Scratchbox and compile it yourself.

I can't say anything about KDE, although I think it would be a slooooow experience in a 770. But maybe Xfce not, who knows (I haven't tried it myself).

I do hope that Nokia will release or at least give enough support for a OS2008HE for the 770, but I will not hold my breath for it.

My own personal impression is that the 770 is going to become a nice "hacker on a budget project" and if you really want to follow the bleeding edge stuff you'll have to learn the underpinnings of the system and install Scratchbox (I am trying to get enough free space for that! :)) so you can compile your own software. Other alternative would be Debian... (another thing I'm considering now, and probably more seriously if OS2008 truly leaves the 770 behind).

This is from a heavily Linux-base perspective (hacking is fun!); if you want it to "just work", I don't see good prospects for new software on the 770... (But I'm a n00b, here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt ;)).

Pablo B.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I bought a 770 for my wife as an ebook reader and we couldn't be happier.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

how do you stream your tv using orb?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I have a TV card and Window XP Media Center, and installed Ffdshow(free software) to decode the signal, and installed Orb 2.0(www.orb.com), these are all you need, and you must have, and of course a wireless internet router. I just got it working for a few days and I can tell you the result is excellent. Now I put a magic tape on the back of the hard cover of my old WSOD left over and stick it on the wall of my kitchen, bedroom, bathroom or any place in my house and never miss a show again. I haven't have a chance to try it outside my house yet, I will try it out this weekend if I can find a good WIFI signal somewhere.:rolleyes:

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Seriously . . . have you used an N800? I've put tons of hours into both my 770 and my N800 since both of their release dates, the N800 is lightyears ahead of the 770 in speed and, thus, general usability.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

N800 is at least 2 times faster. Maybe even 3.

That said, N770 is not for the gadget graveyard yet. Nokia won't support it anymore though, so the community is on its own (Nokia is not a linux community you see). There will be at least one 2008HE, or at least that is promised.

Canola2 needs only a media scanner to work on the 770 (no inotify in the old kernel). Hell, i can even run it now, but without media scanner it won't be of much use.

Maemo mapper 2.3 is working on HE without any problem.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

770 here and Os2007HE, i skipped the N800 not for $ but because I didn't really like the design. it was too.......chick....I don't know, but I didn't care for it. Anyway, now I am ready to get the N810, I like the design there. Especially the transflective screen.
-ezra

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

@dburr10085:

You seem to be misunderstanding the situation a little, so let me clear some things up for you:
1. It's not just a matter of "recompiling" apps that work on the N800/N810 to make them work on the 770. It's a matter of hours of rewriting code to make them work with outdated software, for each version released.
2. Because of the fact that Nokia hasn't released source code for all of IT200xOS it's very difficult for anyone but Nokia to make new IT200xOS releases. If you want IT2008OS it's going to come from Nokia.
3. 2 years *is* considered a fairly short lifetime for a device running Linux. Some clever people *are* working on getting new software releases on the 770, such as the guy on this forum who has Debian running, and OE/Angstrom guys who have at least put together the start of an alternative Linux distribution.
4. That being said, the "Linux community" doesn't *owe* you software for free. The "freedom" of Linux comes from being able to do whatever you want with the source code. Want more applications for the 770? Then why not try to make that happen yourself? And yes, I'm aware that you said that you don't know Linux very well and that it's over your head. Maybe you could try and learn? None of us were born with Linux experience. We all spent the time to learn it. Excuse me for saying so but it seems somewhat hypocritical to come down on the Linux community for not "supporting" the 770, when you aren't willing to make the effort to learn some Linux and meet them halfway.

Just my 2 cents.

-John

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

A Big Amen, brother!

My Palm example earlier with my now humble Treo650 with Palm5os follows that in a little way. Certainly more than double the age of the 770.
That said, I was and am still pissed at the specific killing of the Mac OS 9 which should easily have gone on for years to come. Heck I have a few friends who were still clunking away on Windows 95&98 believe it or not.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Oh good god. You wouldn't happen to go by the name of AmishIndy on a certain mac gaming webboard, would you? <_<

The Classic Mac OS was barely an operating system. It was a horrible, unstable, hackish piece of junk (I should know, I used it for more than 10 years). OS 9 was perhaps only surpassed in its crappiness by 8.6, and it's a damn good thing they killed it dead when they did. Anybody who claims that the move from OS 9 to OS X was a bad thing, obviously has little understanding of the technical issues involved. :p

Thank god for FreeBSD and OS X and good riddance to bad rubbish!

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

4. That being said, the "Linux community" doesn't *owe* you software for free. The "freedom" of Linux comes from being able to do whatever you want with the source code. Want more applications for the 770? Then why not try to make that happen yourself? And yes, I'm aware that you said that you don't know Linux very well and that it's over your head. Maybe you could try and learn? None of us were born with Linux experience. We all spent the time to learn it. Excuse me for saying so but it seems somewhat hypocritical to come down on the Linux community for not "supporting" the 770, when you aren't willing to make the effort to learn some Linux and meet them halfway.

Just my 2 cents.

-John



4. worth only two cents.

no other platform abandons a unit after a mere two years. period. Thats plain and simple ridiculous. Where do they think the first financial stream started? With the first buyers. Regardless of whether some of them could or couldn't afford to upgrade after such a short time.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

No I don't.
Is your smug arrogance a sign of your young age or are you really this rude in 'general'?

I don't care to even address such foolishness, but at the time of something like Macos8.6, Windows was just a sad meager OS stumbling its way to functionality and stability and Linux was still fledgling. Few were involved in Unix at that time and the main tool for professionals in publishing and real pro media was the Mac OS. All the big software houses came through the Mac OS of those days. Adobe, Corel, Meta, Symantec, Mcaffee, Quark etc.

You having trouble staying on topic?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

iontruo, you can probably count on one hand the number of applications specifically written for maemo.. and most of those probably have unofficial or official nokia backing/collaboration.

So all these apps are really ports from the 'wonder linux community'... some of them amazingly port automatically with just a compile.... sometimes they will only compile using OS2007 or os2008 os images.

The people you are probably complaining about are people who do the apps as a hobby, i dont know of a single commercial app.

I agree with John in that i think your introduction to open source comes first with the realization that no one owes you anything because you havent paid a dime.

I agree with general too because even commercial developers wouldnt want to spend extra time supporting old environments... just not cost effective.

Your sole 'request' should be to nokia to provide you with os2008HE so that you are able to use all the apps which eventually get ported.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Perhaps you have misunderstand my post.
I have an N800, and was making general comment in sympathy with the poster who initiated this thread regarding 'his' feeling abandoned 'in general' with his N770. Surely anyone buying any computing product of any sort should be able to expect that it would last beyond one OS update (ie 2006->2007) and barely two years available.

I personally am impressed with this community and the software that people are developing. My main plug to others is that fact that everything is FREE.
No where in my comments do I specify Maemo or the open source community in my remarks as lacking or whatever. You are right that in many respects his complaint or 'sole request' as you said, perhaps should be direct to Nokia, but as this is the active forum zone for all things Internet Tablet N series, he felt at liberty to voice his frustration as a general feeling here.

I sympathized with that and used a few simple comparatives in my response.

Karel Jansens comment rang true for me: He said
"Good rant, but aimed at the wrong people. ITOS2008 is the responsibility of Nokia and Nokia alone and the main reason the programs you mention have left the 770 behind, is because the operating system isn't maintained to keep up with the new features of those programs.

Normally I'd agree that forced backwards compatibility is not a good thing, but common Nokia, the 770 is nigh on two years old, godsdammit! IBM continued to support OS/2 for almost ten years after they stopped even remembering what it was.

Karel nailed it and pointed the critisism in the appropriate direction. As well he also used a good contrasting example with his mention of IBM and OS/2.


This is kind of a moot point below, being that our community here is not commercial but I did feel moved to address it.

Pipeline said: "even commercial developers wouldn't want to spend extra time supporting old environments... just not cost effective.


Not sure that is true. That is in fact where they can cultivate the existing user base...and feed the upgrade curve most easily.
Even though some will own their units and make good use for some years, that is still a prime source for those that move forward with the subsequent evolution of the platform(productline), as exemplified by the General's remarks about his quick disposal of his N770 and then upgraded to the N800. "Bird in the hand".
Smart developers also go for the easiest cash flow. Starting over everytime and doing missionary work to draw in a virgin customer base is not a choice strategy.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Gather round and I'll tell you a story from just over a year ago. Nokia spilled the beans and told us that our still as of yet unscratched 770s were being replaced by the N800. Chaos ensued and many here pledged to mail their feces stamped into N800 shaped bricks (I tried being an enterpreneur and selling the moulds) to Nokia's headquarters. The calm ensued the day the N800 began shipping, a gentle breeze was in the air... it was everyone tumbling like a house of cards to shell out another $400 a scant year after they did so on the 770. Same thing happened when the N810 came out, though more people are sticking with the N800.

I think I know what Nokia's 5 point plan is. It's to create 5 incredibly similar devices and derive 5x the profit out of them without the cost of R&D on 5 actual generations of growth and change.

My 770 is sitting in front of me with what will most likely be the last OS it'll get updated with. The apps on it are the ones I picked out what will most likely be the most updated application list for the most part.

The next Nokia tablet I buy will be the stage 5 one. And it better have a fellate function or neither me or Karel will buy one.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

This is not true at all. And forgive me if I take a small bit of offense to your assertion. Maemo Mapper was first developed on the 770, it has always worked on the 770, and it will always work on the 770.

You just joined in November, so maybe you weren't around when the N800 was first announced, but I was perhaps one of the most vocal developers against the way Nokia abandoned the Nokia 770 and OS2006. Making OS2007 work on the 770 should have been a priority. I still don't agree with the way Nokia handled it, but what's done is done. The only thing I could do was vow to continue support for the 770 (because, hey, I own one, too, and I'd like to use my own software on it).

And trust me, Nokia didn't make that particularly easy. They did the same thing with OS2008 (breaking backward compatibility), but at least they learned from their mistakes and made OS2008 available for the N800. OS2008 brought hardship only to developers, leaving users insulated from many of the negative effects, although applications generally still need to be ported to OS2008 before they can work.

Every single release of Maemo Mapper includes a version for the 770, with the exact same capabilities as the other versions. Just look at the release list in the Garage. OS2007/N800 support started with v1.4, and OS2008 support started with v2.2. The most recent version, v2.3.1, still supports OS2006 and the Nokia 770. And all future versions will run on it, too.

As for OS2007HE, Maemo Mapper can work with it, if you're willing to do a little more work (and if you're using the "hacker edition" firmware, then you're obviously willing). Personally, I don't use OS2007HE (so I can't test Maemo Mapper on it), because its benefits aren't worth putting up with its shortcomings, but some people do, and some people run Maemo Mapper on it.

Or maybe you're talking about Maemo Mapper abandoning OS2005? It is true that Maemo Mapper v1.0 and greater do not support OS2005, but that is because there is no reason to run OS2005 on the Nokia 770. In fact, I would be surprised to hear that even a single Nokia 770 is still running OS2005. Users stubborn enough to run OS2005 probably don't have a problem sticking with Maemo Mapper v0.2.4.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I've spent a lot of my spare time making sure that Maemo Mapper works on every version of Maemo that is available. And I will continue to spend time with that goal in mind, at least as long as I have working 770 with which to test.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

MM 2.30, 2.31 were not available 24 hrs ago :), has been happily running on my 2007He, see list here too, http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ead.php?t=9282

bun

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Did you *read* what I wrote? All of it? You certainly *quoted* it...
"Nokia" dropped support for the 770 *and* made it difficult for the "Linux community" to continue to support it because they didn't release all their source. All that aside people in the "Linux community" (that's you, me, gnuite, Linux Torvalds, etc) are still interested in seeing the 770 continue to thrive. How will that happen? Either by waiting for Nokia to roll out 2008HE or by getting the current Maemo4.0 stuff into Debian/Fedora and getting that running on the 770.

As for the death of Mac OS 9: The best thing that could have happened to it was for it to be put into a sandbox and separated from the hardware. You should read the Wikipedia article on Mac OS 9 for a little technical background. Just because people use it doesn't make it good software.