ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

Hi,
I'll try to write little because english is not my native language (and I don't write it very well either... it must be a pain for you to read what I write).

Ok, so I've had an N800 for 1 month and 5 days... and I haven't liked it a lot... don't get me wrong:
- I LOVE being able to open sites such as youtube and watch videos from the device (and not having to visit some special sites such as m.youtube.com)
- It's really nice to read Gmail e-mails using a full featured browser.
- It's cool to be able to open Google docs on the device...

But I think that the software is lacking some important features. First, let me explain how did I decide to buy a n800. I've been a Palm user for 3 or 4 years (always a Tungsten C -I think it's still the best or one of the best palms around). It's a cool PDA: you have palm apps (contacts and calendar [PIM]), it has an EXCELLENT app to read and modify documents (Docs To Go which supports MSOFFICE files... like it or not, MSOffice formats is what everyone uses); it has an EXCELLENT e-mail app (versamail... this is a place where simplicity simply destroys the N800 built in app... and it also beats claws mail and minimo). It also includes a very slow web browser (where the n800 excels) but you can upgrade to a newer version... which is also quite slow but at least it's usable.

While, surfing the net i stumbled on the N800 and I loved it... my palm is very old and I thought that this could be a great replacement... but it wasn't... I'm disappointed in all of the aforementioned aspects:
- PIM: I just need to store contacts and a decent calendar app (no, I don't use the "ToDo app")... I've installed the GPE suite and the calendar is nice... I can sync it with erminig and I've liked it. Adding the calendar applet for the main screen makes it fast enough for me (that's another point where palms excel: They are FAST!). The contacts app on GPE looks nice... but it's just WAY too complicated to sync it with a simple CSV file (from palm desktop or from Gmail...). Note that I'm a geek but I'm nothing close to a Linux expert... I've always used windows (and i like it... yeah, it crashes a lot... but it is EASY to use... no command lines)
- Documents: Ok, I must give the N800 a point: when connected to the Internet, you can use Google Docs. But it's probable that you'll spend quite some time offline (e.g. if I'm working on a classroom that's below the ground). I've installed Gnumeric and it looks OK... I've read comments saying that it's not stable enough for "critical operations"... and I hate that... I haven't played with it a lot because of those comments anyway. For word documents and powerpoint presentations, the n800 is useless if it's not connected to the internet... and I can't trust so much on a wireless connection... sorry, this is a no-no for me. I know that abiword is being ported (and that there's something close to a port working -but it doesn't support MSWord files... again, like it or not, that's what everyone uses)... but I really miss some words from Nokia on the subject. Anyway, being unable to download and check documents on my PDA-replacement (I don't know what to call an ITT) is something that kills it for me.
- E-mail: Goes almost to the same as above: If you have an internet connection, then you can just log on to your web account (gmail in my case) and check your e-mails... but trying to download your e-mails to check them later forces you to use the horrible mail app included with the ITTs or use some alternative (such as Claws mail)... I don't like neither of them... Why don't developers take a palm and try to learn from its simplicity?. The N800 is NOT a mini laptop nor an UMPC... it's somewhere between a computer and a PDA... and I'm almost sure that you don't need some extra features on this device (at least, you don't need them taking so much space from the screen).
- Web Browsing: This is a difficult spot... but after thinking about it a lot, I think that palm's approach is a better one (please take notes here as it can be improved on the tablet). It's true that Palm's web browser is painfully slow (that doesn't mean that the ITT's one is fast... it's slow too... but not so much)... but it has some nice features that make it a good option. The main "nice feature" I'm thinking about is the ability to shrink web pages to make them fit in your screen. Sure, the N800 has an 800*480 screen versus a 320*320 screen on a palm... but believe me, many websites aren't made for screens that are 800 pixels wide... sometimes they require a 1024 pixel screen and there's when the tablet's show an horrible presentation. In a palm you don't worry about that... everything is being ordered below what you are reading. Also, even though palm's web browser is slow, some pages load faster... the reason is that those pages have versions for advanced browsers and for basic browsers (Gmail is a good example... it's faster to load gmail on my palm that on my tablet). So here you have a feature suggestion: add an option to resize web pages to fit your screen and add an option to change the browser identification so some sites show a basic layout instead of the bandwidth-eating 'normal' layout (this option should be a button next to the "go" button). Sometimes you JUST want to check if there's a new e-mail... you shouldn't need to load the Gmail web app completely for that... using the basic HTML mode gets the job done FAST.
- Speed: My Tungsten C has a 400Mhz processor... it's the same core speed as my N800. It's true that for most processor-intensive tasks, the N800 is faster (and the battery lasts a little bit longer). For example, I've been able to watch some videos that where encoded with a very high bitrate on my N800... I know tha my palm won't play them (anyway, 5 or 6 years of development must make new 400Mhz processors better). BUT, when I want to do simple things (such as checking my calendar), my Palm is extremely fast (most times, I change to the calendar screen in less than a second). The same goes for contacts (about 400 on my palm, 1 on my N800... and my Palm takes about a second to load them...) and e-mail (when I used e-mail on my N800, it took a LOT of time to load). I know that this doesn't have much to do with the ITT's but it's related to the developers... but I do miss some work from Nokia on these "simple apps". Really, I don't need to watch a video for every contact I have stored... but I DO need to check my contacts FAST.


Finally, I'd like to point some things I've liked about the N800:
- Stability: It has crashed only twice (all this month). My palm crashes once or twice every other day (although it's very easy to reset).
- Wi-Fi Range: I must admit that this point made me choose the N800 over another gadget. My Tungsten C doesn't have a bad wi-Fi range... it has an HORRIBLE range... really it's unacceptable. I've read some people who opened their palms to take their antennas away from the case... it works but it looks horrible. And you don't gain a lot.

Anyway, I don't want to start a flamewar... What I'm saying here is that the N8x0 is just not ready for mass markets. It may be okay for some people... but at least it's not Ok for me... and I'm considered a knowledgeable person in everything related with computers (except for Linux). I'm quite sure that if this device wasn't good enough for me, then it's not ready for anyone else in my family (84 members or more.... too late to count) neither any of my friends. On the other hand, while they may be slow for internet, Palm devices are easy enough to use for almost anyone that can read the screen.
I know that the ITT's weren't supposed to replace a palm... but I thought they could... After using my ITT I think that what I really need is a laptop (maybe the Eee PC?) and keeping my trusty Palm. I'm selling my N800 on an internet site (not ebay because no one uses it here in Chile). Maybe I can get some extra cash because I bought my N800 for an excellent price.
I could only recommend an ITT to someone who asks for a device to "have a browser on my hand".... but I don't think it's ready for something else.

Cheers.

P.s. Anyone has good laptop suggestions?

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

N900 is in planning.......N8000 will have to wait.

bun

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

Fixed, thanks!

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

The same subject has been discussed excessively in many other posts...

Anyway,

1. ITT = Internet Tablet Talk, i.e. this forum.
NIT = Nokia Internet Tablet, i.e. N800, N810.

2. there's 'mnotify' to check for new mails from the status bar if you're hooked on google.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

Sure, but I've found that it drains the battery quite fast... anyway, the problem using Gmail is that it's slow to load (once it's loaded, it's very fast).

Cheers

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

Use Modest for Google. Fast and doesn't get in the way (and it runs in background while there is connection too). Not web.

http://modest.garage.maemo.org/

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

Makes me wonder why the OP bought the iT in the first place.

@mtad : Where on the box or anywhere did anyone claim that the iT had a PIM suite in the first place? Why did you buy the iT knowing that it did NOT have an PIM Suite, then complain about the absence of a PIM suite?

The iT is not meant to be a PDA like the Tungsten and certainly not meant to replace one's PDA.

Also, I would argue that the web browsing experience is purely subjective. I have used Palm OS over a number of years, and I could NEVER say that I have EVER enjoyed the crippled web browsing experience on a Palm. Frankly, I find that web browsing on my E51 smartphone is superior to the Palm's, but hey, that's just my opinion.

While I agree on several other points (that you did not mention) that the iTs are not ready for mass market consumption, your arguments are somewhat weak -- you are comparing a PDA with an Internet Tablet.

Why not compare your Palm with a Mylo, or a Sidekick?

While the IMAP experience is less than ideal on the iT, I've no complaints getting Gmail working on POP3 and since then I have had no complaints because it does:

MP3 playback
video playback
VoIP (Gizmo, Skype)
web browsing with a desktop experience
email (Gmail POP)
streaming music from Vagalume/Last.FM and the media player's list of Internet Radio Stations

For PIM, push email, and quick web lookups, i have my E51.

I could run a comparison of how the Tungsten isn't as good as the iT, but that would be just pointless :)

So you've posted a nice long post about why the iT is not for you. I agree, but what's your point? That's it's not ready for prime time? Works for me, and I'm not a sophisticated user.

Your point is that it doesn't work for you, is based on:

web browser experience -- subjective argument. Along with many people here, the web browser on the iT is far superior to what is on most other PDAs anyway.

documents and PIM not up to par -- iT was never meant to have or run document management software anyway, so why complain that it doesn't do what it was never supposed to? Palm and Windows Mobile claim to be able to handle DOC/XLS/PPT so it BETTER be able to do it decently. Where did you see that OS2008 was touted by official sources to be able to do DOC/XLS/PPT? PDF works (at least for me, and I have encoded A LOT of work-related documents for on-the-go reference), and I'm sure you agree.

Email -- POP3 works (even with Gmail), and IMAP4 (not with Gmail, but it works on my other mail provider) mostly works

You need to check your contacts fast? My phone does a really good job of it. Looking up contacts is a means to an end -- you're either going to call, IM or email that contact next, so it's only natural to do the lookup from my phone. Doing a lookup on a PDA and then dialling it on my phone is so 90's :)

I just got my hands on an eePC today. Nice, and definitely so much nicer to input stuff on than the iT (I'm using an N800), but it's too big for me, battery life too limited (2 hours of online time - my N800 gives me AT LEAST 3.5 hours), no means of extending battery life with AA batteries (gotta buy a battery pack replacement), and limited storage space (my N800 does 16GB x 2, and the eePC only does 1 x SDHC). It's a different tool for a different task. I wouldn't use it for contacts either, and having to operate the device with one hand is a bit of a PITA on the eePC.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

You can choose between battery life and timeliness of notification, but never both. This applies to Windows Mobile, Palm, and any other OS because the notifier needs to force the connection to stay alive and ping (thus using resources) every x number of seconds (or milliseconds).

FWIW, mnotify alerts me of new mail in my Gmail mailbox even before my desktop Google Talk client does.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

@gnook: I said what things are really killing the NIT for me... I'm don't want to carry 3 devices around... I've always used my palm to be something close to a laptop replacement (Docs To Go + Keyboard) and it works fine... I thought the NIT would replace my palm for those "laptop" tasks... but it's not up to the task. It's true that Nokia doesn't advertise PIM functionality nor MSOffice compatibility... but that's the least you'd expect from a device like the N800 (at least, it's what I expect). I hoped I could use the larger screen for easier text input/editing... but no MSOffice compatibility kills it for me.
My cell phone is not a blackberry nor anything close to "advanced". It is a phone with bluetooth... nothing special (Sagem my301)... I know that this may be my particular situation but I've read just too many comments of people that would like to have their contacts sync'd in their tablets... you just DON'T WANT to take more than one device at a time to check a contact to send an e-mail or to give his number to someone else... Also, you are lucky because you live in a very safe country... you can just take several devices while you are taking public transportation and you know that you won't be robbed... that's not my case. I really don't want to carry around too many electronic devices. Yeah, you may have heard that Chile is the safest country in south America... but it's still south America (and our current president is the worst one we've had in so many years, forcing many of us to take public locomotion... Pinochet, we really miss you).
C'mon, my dad's N95, a cellphone has better office compatibility than my NIT! That can't be normal!.

But again, it's true that it's not advertised as a Palm replacement (although I wanted it to be one)... but I have a question left... if you have a good cell-phone, a goop PDA and a laptop around you (as you are suggesting I should), then... what's a NIT for? If you wan't to check e-mail, take out the PDA or cell phone, for contacts, PDA or Cell phone... if you want some light web browsing, the cell phone... if it's a little heavier, then the PDA... and if it's strong, then the Laptop (Why would you use a NIT for strong web browsing??). If a NIT can't replace a laptop nor a PDA then -at least for me- it's useless. Office is critical to a Laptop; PIM is critical to a PDA... a NIT can't do neither of them well... then, what is it for? (sure it's not for me... but... has anyone found something useful to do with it?).

-Again, I don't want to start a flamewar... I don't want to sound to harsh... but I'm really dissapointed.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

You wish it to be something (pda) while it is marketed as something else (lifestyle browsing/skype device). I don't think you can blame Nokia for that. Lines between types of devices will keep blurring, so you should do some research.

I use my n800 for reading web articles and ebooks while lying on the couch. I hate sitting behind my desk at home when I have been doing that the whole day at work. I could not do that as comfortably with a pda or a laptop.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

And there is the beauty of something that continuosly evolves and where even the less experienced users can learn or make contribute somehow to developing the stuff. I have had the n810 for over two months and it is now that I am really getting the value of it. I use my PC less than before, browse articles on several newspapers without the need to buy them (think of the sunday bricks in the US and you are also sparing some paper...). True some of the applications have shortcomings and some standards (video) should ne supprted, but these may be improved over time and even rather quickly. If Nokia invests some money in supporting the community efforts and addresses the major issues this thing can fly. While it is not marketed as a PIM there is potential and it would make sense to continue developing this feature. Remember, at the beginning it was not a GPS device, but they made one out of it (although not the best in class, but you can't have everything, no?)...

Well, that's my 2 cents. I am really enjoyig the n810.
Antonio

PS And not to have to rely on Microsoft for once? Priceless!

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

doesn't do much for your credibility ... and what
you say about the tablet is about as worthwhile

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

With the palm emulator you should still be able to do this with the NIT.

Anyone tried this ? I have an old copy of Docs to go so will try it when I get my N810.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

Ive tried the palm emu.... couldn't get it to sync. anyway, it's not compatible with armlets (apps that take advantage of an arm cpu). also, it's slow.

albright, i'm not discussing your post because it's OT... and probably shows someone brainwashed by marxist propaganda.

cheers

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

"albright, i'm not discussing your post because it's OT... and probably shows someone brainwashed by marxist propaganda.

cheers"

The funniest OT side-spat I've seen! Some of us were brainwashed by the Marxist-controlled British and Spanish governments, where there are reds under beds everywhere!

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

I also bought an N810 hoping to replace an aging Palm Tungsten C.
Not gonna happen. Nokia is absolutely right. It's not a PDA.
However, the Nokia web and document reading performance
is so vastly superior to the Tungsten's, that I'm replacing
the Tungsten and my cell with a Treo. Best of both worlds.
Keep the unbeatable Palm PIM apps, in a smaller form factor.
Leverage the big beautiful hi res screen of the Nokia for web apps.
Instead of the N810 replacing my Palm, it's replacing my laptop.

Re: ITTs not yet ready for mass markets
 

It's not a perfect device, but once you figure out how Nokia intended for it to work with existing devices/infrastructure, you'll come to realise that your original post doesn't make sense.

The NIT was and still is meant to be an internet tablet. As an internet tablet and not a PDA, the product developers/managers set about defining a set of features, the same set that you find on the box and in the marketing collateral. This is as far as Nokia is committed to support a specific set of applications on the tablet. Such applications include the typical things users would do if they were on the internet, i.e.

web browsing
email
youtube (which practically seems to be an activity on its own these days)
listening to internet radio
watching internet videos
making VoIP calls
audio playback (see Wiki for a list of supported formats)
video playback (see Wiki for a list of supported formats)

It was never ever meant to be a notebook replacement the way an eePC is, or a PDA in the way that a Windows Mobile or Palm OS device is. Granted, each device has its own strengths, much like comparing a Prius (eco-friendly green car) vs Hummer (offroad 4x4) vs Evo (rally car) vs Civic (Japanese family sedan) vs Audi A6 (Continential family saloon) vs Ford Mustang (American muscle car), etc etc

One has to understand that each of the above is first anf foremost a car, but the intrinsic details and target audiences are what separate them from each other. One does not buy a Z06 and bemoan the absence of a tailgate ('Oh, Chevy could have fitted one on!' - technically possible) or poor mpg, or poor off-road capabilities ('How about a lift-kit option?').

The Nokia iT is meant to be a companion device to a mobile phone or acting as a standalone internet connectivity device for someone who wants to have an improved mobile internet experience.

Most of Nokia's smartphones today already support document viewing (to some extent), have a decent web browser, messaging client (POP/IMAP/pushmail), and have a semi-decent PIM (calendar, contacts and tasks) built into them.

Again, since I am rarely without my cellphone (save for when I am at home), all my contact details are stored in my Nokia E51, and as is my schedule and to-do list, and as an added bonus, this is synced with my MS Exchange server. When I need to do a quick lookup on the Internet, the built-in web browser provides me with a quick and dirty, no-frills alternative

So where does the iT come in?

When I want an enhanced Internet experience, one with Flash and proper Javascript presentation, or if I am on the road and do not wish to add unnecessary strain to the battery life of my mobile phone from online activities, or as a personal media player, the NIT is the ideal companion device.

Can it do more than that? I agree, but as someone posted earlier, perhaps that may be Nokia's experiment, much in the same way that Asus introduced the eePC with Linux, knowing fully well that the Linux community would provide 3rd party software support to make the eePC more than what it can be out o the box. Yet, on this same argument, users cannot expect or demand that Asus support these 3rd party software (if you knew that what it costs these days to run a support team, you'd faint), only the features that are provided out of the box. This is standard in any IT device, e.g. notebook -- the LG notebook that I am using is supported by LG itself on hardware and LG bundled applications, with the OS being supported by MS directly. If I attached a 3rd party peripheral or install a 3rd party software, then the onus is on me to work out kinks with the manufacturer/developer, and not LG/MS.