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Separate phone versus all-in-one
This thread made me wonder about the 'one device' preference. If you had the option to buy a phone that had all features and openness of an internet tablet except being (I)phone sized. would you prefer that to a separate phone and internet tablet?
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Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
No, because of battery life. I use my cell phone only to make calls. While I use my internet tablet for alot more (thus the battery is more likely to drain). So I'd only prefer a all-in-one solution if it had the battery capacity to last a few days while in use. So I could use it, go without charging (in case I forgot the charger or just forgot to charge it) and still be able to make a phone call.
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Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
No, for several reasons, including the ones you've mentioned.
- I don't always carry my tablet, but my phone is always near. - Battery life of integrated devices is much lower than that of a dedicated phone. - A small phone will fit behind my tonsils (yes, yes, it's a figure of speech), while I can't squeeze my pocket pc in my ****. - If someone comes up with a cellular data protocol that is a gazillion times faster than the one we're having now, I only need to replace my obsolete phone. One huge problem has sofar not been addressed by any vendor: A separate phone needs to universally, effordlessly and seamlessly synch with my pocket pc and vice versa. Nokia's Itablets suck especially in that aspect. It really needs to be: When they're in bluetooth reach of each other, synching will happen automagically. |
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Our designers need to find a way to get 2 batteries in the device, IMO, before adding a SIM is practical.
If everyone is willing to wait, though, Texas Instruments just developed IC circuitry that takes 1/3 less current than current low poer designs. Of course, that doesn't help the gsm/wifi/wimax stuff... |
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I actually prefer two devices, but probably not the ones you'd think of... I have both a full feature smartphone and a non WWAN pda of some sort... I start off with just a pda and a standard phone... that was fine until i got my first treo- the 600. I tried using the treo 600 exclusively and i couldn't for what i needed... mostly the fault of the palm OS. i did a lot of stuff with pocket pc apps especially gps navigation... so i went with the smartphone and pda combo. i then went along the line, with a treo 650 and now a treo 700wx. Once i got a windows mobile smartphone, i figured i had all i needed, and i decided to use my dedicated pda (an HP ipaq hx4700) less and less. When the ipaq finally died i tried once again to use just a smartphone exclusively but i couldn't... i needed the larger screen and built in wifi and faster processor to do more intensive stuff when i need to. So i decided to try a nokia tablet because i couldn't find anything in the windows mobile space that could compare to my 3 year old ipaq- it seems like dedicated pdas took a few steps back after the axim x51 and ipaq hx4700 got discontinued...
For me, i need something small and with a dedicated keyboard and phone for most PIM apps and email etc... i will always have my phone... but when i need to do more like surf the web a lot or do gps navigation or wireless pre-surveys i whip out something more robust. i do agree that it would be very convenient if both devices were able to sync to each other in a similar fashion that palm envisioned the ill fated folio would... when i had 2 windows mobile devices tied to the same exchange server, that was the behavior i got in essence... they were synching to the server and not directly to each other, but the data all was the same... i wish i could get something that streamlined for the nokia n800, but i've only begun using the device.... |
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I would be deliriously happy if I could make the same kind of calls I make with Skype whereever I was, without regard to whether wifi was available. To the person who worries about battery usage, I say that I would rather carry a spare battery than a whole other device. I typically change batteries several times a day and it is almost instantly done.
Right now, I only carry one device with me at all times, and it is my cheap cell phone. I carried my N800 everywhere for about six months, but I finally realized that I really didn't feel like being so encumbered. Besides, what's the big deal about being able to fit something in your pocket? Most of us travel by car. I would rather have a device that plugged in to the car somehow, and when I wanted to bring it with me to a wifi cafe, I would just slide it out of the slot and bring it along. There was a time when I traveled daily by PATH train, thru the WTC and on the subways of Manhattan, but I just don't do that sort of thing here in Southern Calif. I still find the N800 handy in the house, whether lying on the bed or walking downstairs, and I often use it while using a laptop or desktop computer, at the same time. But the only time I carry it in my pocket is when I'm out for a jog. So, I guess I'm a one-device person, if you don't count my watch, I carry one device, and it isn't my N800. If I could make and receive calls on it, I would dump the cell phone and just carrry the N800. If I carried a purse, it would be a different story and I would take my N800 AND a cell phone. |
Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
On the sync thing.
I came across some vnc software that let you see your Symbian S60 based phone. I figured that would be a good alternative. Don't sync, just access your phone screen via your tablet. That would also allow you to synce your phone with your PC as before. But it would only work over wifi unless you used some sort of bluetooth to tcp/ip conversion software they provided. This was not available for Maemo. WiFi on all the time on the phone would drain battery too much and nobody on the forum had any ideas of how to get bluetooth to tcp/ip so did not pursue any further... Zuber |
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Oh, and I personally have no particular need to synch my phone or my pocket computer with my desktop. Because I'm an antisocial b*st*rd, I don't need to check my personals with anyone but me. |
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I'm agnostic about "one device" vs "multiple devices".
On the one hand, I think "The Unix Way" of each entity being specialized, and interacting with each other in a regular and scaleable way (unix: the pipeline, mac os x: services, phones&pda's: bluetooth). With that mindset, a NIT should be a NIT with wifi and bluetooth (both DUN and PAN), and no picture camera, no WWAN radio (not even WiMAX). It also might fit the phone idea I posted about the other day (phone has keyboard for TXT and for use as a Bluetooth keyboard for the NIT, or your PC, etc.). Or, even more ideal, is the HP idea that their vp of tech talked about in Oct 06: the WWAN radio is only that. It might be built into your watch, for example. And then you have devices that interact with it (a NIT, a phone handset (if the NIT can't also do that), a camera, etc.). But, I hate carrying a ton of devices. And I hate the idea of having all of that RF energy around my body (for example, I generally dislike bluetooth headsets; I got the Nokia BH-500 so that I don't have a bluetooth radio stuck to the side of my head). So, one integrated device that does EVERYTHING would be good. So, one device with a wired headset option, has WWAN model variations (CDMA, GSM, WiMAX), has a picture/video camera, a keyboard, and sound ergonomic design ... but also a huge honk'n battery ... that might be nice. So, in the end, as long as either method is done well, and not half-baked (nor half-assed), I'm ok with either approach. |
Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
No for some other reason; I don't use a cell phone. I've never needed one and won't for a while.
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Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
"I don't want to see my phone's screen on my tablet, I can see my phone's screen on my phone just fine. I want my phone and my pocket computer to share the same data automatically."
Yes, I know you can do it on the phone. But I think you are missing my point (the pluses if it was easy and seamless). There is no need to sync. you already have full access to the phone. You can use the qwerty keyboard for typing text messages etc. You can cut and paste between phone and Tablet You don't need to juggle both devices. e.g. You could transfer a photo from one to other while only handling the one device. If you are using a bluetooth headset for example, you would never really need to take the phone out of your pocket (except for non phone functions). Almost like only having one device :) Zuber |
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Not going anywhere fast, hence my suggestion. GIVE UP and VNC the phone instead. Needs someone that knows what they are doing to get it to work over bluetooth instead of wifi though... I might try and spend a bit of time on this and see how well it works. Maybe fire up a little more interest in it. Zuber |
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Hmm. it seems I should've added some more options for the 'no, other reason' voters, like:
- I live in a country where phones are generally sold with a 1 or 2 year contract, and I don't want the contract. - If wimax comes a n810 sized device will function as my phone. - I prefer my phone to be as small and cheap as possible and I don't need to have tablet functionality with me all the time. - I am a luddite and I don't want a phone :D Still it is interesting to see that around one quarter of the voters, who I assume have bought an Internet Tablet, would rather have one device. |
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I want separate devices because while I have a cell phone, I don't use it frequently and usually have it turned off and leave it in my bag, so that I'm not interrupted. However, I use my N810 all the time - keep it always on and in my pocket.
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Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
I'm a "No, for other reasons"
Cell data plans are notorious for long contracts, hight cost, and borderline abusive TOS. I can get low speed data for free through any one of several methods if a device supports BT. For a very low cost I can get EVDO speeds as well if I wished. It's all about knowing how to play your cards in the pre-pay market. "Smart" phones are not smart enough to let you get away with these "work arounds". The 770 allowed me to see what was possible, unfortunately without even basic syncing/PDA functionality it was useless to me. For me, right now, the perfect device would be the iPod touch if it had BT ( assuming it could use the DUN BT profile for internet ). That would be a dream, but one dream I doubt Apple will ever fulfill. I will never buy an iPhone, I'm not locking myself into a 2 year contract that will have me paying out nearly $60/month more than I'm paying now for cell service. What it comes down to is I refuse to pay a monthly fee for what is, in essence, a toy. Therefore I need to keep my phone plan separate from any tablet/internet device. If the phone allows for the device to get online that's a bonus, but one that I'm not counting on. |
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I want separate devices because if the Internet Tablets were phones (assuming no non-phone versions available), what happens if it's picked up by a different provider than who you currently have service with? Even if it's not tied to a single provider (like the Satan-Phone is with AT&T) you're still tied to a single technology, either GSM or CDMA. I shouldn't have to, nor will I change providers every time a cellphone company comes out with the latest and greatest phone. If I did I'd be changing providers every 3 months.
BTW, I'm not opposed to the iPhone, per-say, I just think it's overpriced, over-hyped, and too many (though not all) of the people I've seen with them seem to think I should bow before them because they're special enough to have one. On the plus side, even though the internet tablets aren't really meant to be a competitor to the iPhone, everyone makes that comparison anyways so it gives me a chance to point out how my N810 (0r even the 770 for that matter) does almost everything better than the iPhone. |
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Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
what's the problem with integrating cdma/tdma or gsm into this device? Make it switchable to conserve power (like bt)...and the user can choose whether or not they want to use it and pay for a service.
I'd gladly trade an sd slot or stupid flip out keyboard for the ability to make a phone call or send a text message...especially when i'm out of wifi range and have to tether to my phone to do anything. regardless of size, i'd rather be carrying one device instead of two... |
Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
Maybe if they had 2 lines of products:
1) Internet Tablets (770, N800, N810) that run maemo, but don't have integrated WWAN radios. 2) Maemo versions of the E61, E90, etc. Maybe an M-series (maemo) of phones and WWAN enabled devices. If you want a non-WWAN device, you continue with the N-series internet tablets. If you want a WWAN device, you go with an M-series device. |
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FYI, here in the US if you want month-to-month EVDO service you can get it from a small and new ISP called Millenicom the EVDO is over the Sprint/Alltel EVDO network for jsut $50/mo w/o any contract. They even send a free USB EVDO modem. There is a $50 setup fee but BFD if you need the service it's better than a 2-yr contract. And the service is truly uncapped with no usage limits beyond the very reasonable don't host a server on it. Then again who in their right mind would try that on a mobile broadband connection. ;)
I have a throw-away phone when I need it which costs me $100 for 1000mins that are good for a year. As long as I add say $10/yr to the phone the minutes carry over from year to year. I once used a cell all the time and eventually I realized I was never not at work...so, I not only sold the business and moved, I took that phone apart to fiddle with it's guts...and it felt great! :) So for about $600/yr I have total freedom to be wherever and doing whatever. I really like that...heck I have even found EVDO RevA service in National Parks...now that was WEIRD... BTW, I want a cell phone to be just that...a phone. I have plenty of computers and do not need a phone to keep my mind numbed with some sort of sound-byte propaganda from the TV networks of cell provider either...can you imagine if your home phone kept trying to push ads or other content at you all the time? So I say just bring back a SIMPLE CELL PHONE that one can use to make and receive calls when needed. That's all... |
Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
Rather than giving me an EVDO USB modem, I wish someone would sell an integrated device that has the functions of both a USB EVDO modem and a cradepoint personal hotspot (takes the USB EVDO modem, and exports the data over wifi; and it has an internal battery, so it's also mobile).
Even if you get a reliable and easy way to use an EVDO USB modem with a NIT, there's still the fact that the USB ports on the NITs are awkwardly placed (behind the kickstand, on the side of the device). I just don't see an EVDO USB modem alone as being an appropriate solution for the NIT. (also, I seem to recall that you can get the same service directly from Sprint; $50/mo with a contract through SERO, $60/mo without a contract if you pay full price for the EVDO modem, or $60/mo if you get the EVDO modem at a discount and accept a 2 year contract) |
Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
johnkzin:
Sorry but I use that setup DAILY and it is tremendeously portable and transparent. The term USB router in this case means the USB modem connects to the ROUTER. The connection to the router from the NIT is via wifi. It could also be hardwired ethernet but, well, that is not ever gonna happen on an Nit's, or at least I should hope not...hehehehe...but, sorry if my description was unclear in that area....early onset CRS I guess... ;) Heck, the other day I was out shopping and had the router w/battery pack in my back pocket and used the tablet to yak on Skype to my better half...it's all SMALL only the tablet is bigger than a deck of cards or pack of cigarettes. Together it all weighs in at about 12oz? I need to weigh them and post some pics... I find the solution is extremely practical and functional. The modular nature of it means if a single component fails it can be replaced easily but should any single component of a all-in-one setup fails then that device is a brick. BTW, the Cradlepoint CTR350 also now supports router to router wifi networking, HSDPA devices and the WAN/LAN port auto detects what mode is required when hardwired to something. I could have bought a Cradlepoint PHS300 which has an user replaceable LiON Poly battery but I wanted the ability to wire into my home network if DSL went down. And in my case the Franklin CDU680 EVDO modem supports and external CDMA antenna allowing me to create a true rolling hotspot in my vehicle or even a stationary setup at home if my only broadband option is either HughesNet or EVDO...EVDO wins hands down every time no matter if you need to buy an amplifier. And yup, you can get a nice deal via SERO if you actually know an employee of Sprint and with phone service I think it's either $30 or $40/mo for uncapped data...but it will not be as user friendly as the smaller ISP. In addition there is dealing with the current fiasco that is Sprint's billing system since the Alltel merger/acquisition. The Millenicom is a whole different deal...I started with a small DSL ISP (DSLExtreme who offers service over a variety of DSl systems now) almost a decade ago and have never been let down...smaller meant better customer service. I prefer to pay a bit more for not having to deal with a megaCorp. And I never even mentioned connecting the EVDO modem to the USB port on the NIT's as an option...in fact the NIT's are PROBLEMATIC due to their current design and that wonderful but just PITA sometimes placed kickstand... ;) I actually use it as a handle as much as I do a stand. I find it aids me in making sure I don't drop the device. I have hand probs that can make holding something difficult and I often will drop something for no apparent reason...at least it proves gravity still works...hehehehe... Now there is a design oversight, lack of a place to attach a lanyard. A wrist lanyard would save a lot of broken screens I would think. My solution is once from a camera store that just sticks on the back. Not elegant but it works. BTW, I too would LOVE the ability to add whatever MBB option works for me to the device via either one of the memory card slots or making the device a tad thicker adding a bigger battery and a slot for the card of choice...but that would get messy in terms of antenna's and what not...still would love a larger battery and that extra 1/4" is not likely to casue anyone but an image over substance zealot to have a stroke. |
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Do you have the Cradlepoint CTR-350 or the MBR-thing that Millenicom has on their site? I couldn't tell which one you have, from your message. And, where did you get the battery pack for whichever one you have? What kind of battery life are you seeing on it, and under how much use? And how is the quality with skype? clear? Do you get many interruptions or distortions? (the one or two times I tried skype, it was a distortion every 30-60 seconds; my gf didn't appreciate that at all :-} ) Last, what do you use to carry around the battery+router+usbDongle? I was thinking about getting another Pelican case to hold all of that, but I don't know which one is sized right to be "just big enough to hold all of that and the foam inserts to secure it", and how good the signal strength is through the high density plastic. Plus, I'm pretty sure I'll need to move to the next larger Maxpedition bag from the one I have, in order to carry the iGo keyboard, N810 in a pelican case, and a 2nd pelican case for the above. Though, I've been thinking of moving up to the Jumbo or Manta anyway (I have the "Fat boy"). Quote:
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And, if only it had a small built-in jabber server to act as an SMS/MMS gateway from your PDA/Laptop/etc. But that's probably asking a bit much. That, or Skype should implement full bidirectional SMS so you can treat its IM service as a substitute for a cell phone SMS plan. But if they did, I could use just the cell service on the router for 95% of my cellular/mobile needs, including Skype for a bunch of stuff ... and then drop my MetroPCS phone down to the unlimited voice only plan for $35/mo for just those cases where Skype voice reception isn't good enough for a given call. Quote:
The other question I have about the cradepoints (or the external battery you've got) is if there's a way to power/charge them via USB (I have a car charger that has a USB port on it, and might get one with 2 or 3 USB ports; then I have USB cables for charging my phone and my NIT ... being able to charge phone+NIT+router all at once would be nice). Quote:
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Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
I'd like to point out that many of us use an all-in-one device that is very complex for transportation. Just because something is all-in-one doesn't mean that if something goes wrong with it the whole thing has to be thrown out or anything. Parts of all-in-one devices can be fixed.
Skype exists now, and if there was universal wireless, the N8xx devices could be used for phones everywhere right now. You would always be free to carry as many cell phones with you as you chose in addition to your all-in-one device. |
Re: Seperate phone versus all-in-one
Moved to it's own thread...just too long and too much of a thread-jack for me to feel happy about it...
Here is the new thread: http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...256#post147256 |
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(Newbie Alert.) I voted that I would like to have an all-in-one device. I am surprised that I am in the minority by better than 2 to 1. While I don't have any knowledge regarding battery life, I under stand having a spare battery to swap out as necessary is not a big problem. One of the more common replies was, "No, I want the big screen." I assumed that the implication of the question was whether or not the N810 should also be a phone. I don't own a tablet yet and I certainly don't have any expertise in the hardware area. But why shouldn't the N810 have a phone built in? I'd love to have mobile internet, but without cellular service, it's kind of like having the latest and greatest car stereo - that only works when you're parked in your garage. Sorry if this offends any of the community, but it seems to me that carrying two devices is kind of silly if not just plain inconvenient.
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So, I said I was agnostic about all-in-one vs multi-device ... and it's more like I sort of go back and forth on it (agnostic in the "undecided" sense, not the "it doesn't matter", "it's not decidable", nor "there is no knowable answer" sense).
Here's what I posted over on the Wimax tablet thread: Personally, I'd prefer to see no direct WiMAX version of the N800 nor N810. Instead, I'd like to see a device like the CenterPoint PHS-300 that has 1 USB-client port for charging an internal battery, configuration, and use as a USB network adaptor, 1 RJ45 port for direct ethernet, and a low power Wifi radio (maybe GPS too). Then different models for:
And, for the CDMA and GSM versions, it has a built in SIP server and very light Jabber server, so that you can use a SIP client to make phone calls and a Jabber client to interact with SMS/MMS. And it would have a small https web server for configuration. The internal battery should be big enough to last most of a day (6-8 hours), if not all day (12-18ish hours). Dual hot-swappable batteries might be cool. Especially if it has an external USB battery charger you can buy. I think those would be much better products than an N800 or N810 with built-in WiMAX. So, I guess my current leaning is toward multiple devices. A WWAN<->Wifi gateway device, a NIT, and maybe a real camera (with a wifi SDIO card). |
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NIT's have always been a "second pocket" device and I would hope it stays that way. Cell companies are bastards for the most part and making a device that operates directly on a network would incur such hassles from many of the carriers. WiMax is even pushing it because you are adding a new radio that will only be usable by a tiny fraction of nokia users. The big question is what they have to remove in order to add WiMax, GSM, CDMA, and/or HSPA.
Right now with WiFi and BT DUN on the NIT means access almost anywhere. |
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I am new to this interet tablet world. What is BT DUN?
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After researching it a bit, it seems that it has something to do with using your cell phone connection, via bluetooth, to get dial-up speed connectivity. How do you set this up?
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As for reasons for 2 devices. Cell phones are very good at reserving battery power when doing radio things. It is what they do. When I run my cell phone bluetooth on and use the tablet to browse the web etc. The phone has 3+ days life in the battery (On T-Mo much less on AT&T 3G but that is to be expected). But when I use the phone as My main internet device the use of that display runs through the batt very quickly. I have to charge each night. Having a phone is more important to me. I can check email etc on it at all times. It is the way people from work contact me in an emergency. While if i use the tablet for all my browsing it also dies in a day. If I get called away in the middle of the night as often happens in my job. I still have a good charge in the phone and can still get stuff done. the tablet is less important. Other users have different priorities. Or check out the web less during the day then I do. But for me this is the main reason for going for 2 devices. The second reason is that smart phones are allways a compromise. To be small to appeal to the phone market they either have a very small display and a very small keyboard. Or no keyboard. Browsing on a tiny display is doable with a good browser. The N95 and I phone do this great. But a bigger display is much better. I also like to write while I am in bars etc. i enjoy writting fiction etc as I sit and watch people it often inspires me. I like to type these out as they hit me. the smartphone keyboards are all to much of a compromise for me. The HTC Wizard is the best I have had. And that had very poor web browsing. By going to the 2 device option. I have a very small by smartphone standards phone that works well as a phone. When carrying around multiple devices is a pain. (I fly hang gliders at weekends the N95 sits well in a jeans pocket as I fly and give me all I need. GPS is very cool for this) I can leave the tablet in the car. But when i am heading out to a bar or jazz club the N810 is in reach and easy to use for more inspiring moments. As I say the pairing works very well for me. Suits me own personal needs and fussyness perfectly. I am sure there are others who if they considered why they want the devices would have the same opinion. For the others. I phone or the hellspawn that is the Treo family will be there choice. |
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DUN = Dial up networking Turning your phone into glorified modem, sometimes a very fast modem if you have 3g or 3.5g access. Depending on your plan and the connection this can be free, use minutes, or cost a small fortune. Details on setting it up can be found in the forums. |
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My phone is quite small and I hook it outside my pocket (or keep it inside a small pocket) When in swimming trunks I hook it on the side. Or I go somewhere where I don't want, or need to carry something as large as the N8x0. Which is one reason to keep two devices: The phone is always with me, the NIT only when I think I'll need it. Point is, when kept together it _is_ as if the NIT has a built-in phone - I can go online through the phone via BT, completely transparently (the phone stays in the pocket). I've replaced my phone during the year I've had my N800. I expect to upgrade again this year, I'll get a 3.5G phone this time. If the N800 had a built-in phone I would be stuck with whatever technology it came with. As long as the phone technology keeps moving the way it does now I definitely prefer to be able to replace that part of my setup at will. Actually, I have two phones - one private and one work phone. I'm allowed to use my work phone for internet connection for work mail etc. That phone is being replaced every so often too, and it's also a different carrier than my private phone. Those are just two reasons for keeping the phone and the N8x0 separate. In general I also prefer my phone to be very small, and with good battery capacity (the one I have lasts up to three weeks - no way the NIT could hold that long, and I would hate to carry spare batteries), and I prefer my internet tablet to be the size it is. These requirements collide, so I won't have them integrated into one device. Even if the NIT had a SIM card I would _still_ carry my phone(s), the SIM in the NIT would be completely redundant, or I would need an additional carrier contract which doesn't make sense at all. If none of the above requirements concern you, then I guess you'll end up in the all-in-one camp. |
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I think it is called Maemo-Pan |
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Is it supported by Nokia, out of the main Nokia application repository? |
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