iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Rui Carmo does a head-to-head of the Touch and N810 :

http://the.taoofmac.com/space/blog/2008/03/08/2245

While a few of his points are valid (speed, UI experience, integration, email), I was quite surprised at some of his conclusions. This particular comment touched a nerve :

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

heh, not surprised...

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

It's on a mac site, what do you expect?

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I don't know what else you could expect on a site called the.taoofmac.com. Of course he's biased to the Apple, Inc. product. Just look at how he considers the iPod's OSK to be on par with the N810's keyboard. =|

I had actually seriously considered this product before buying my N810. But the main reasons I got the Nokia over the iPod were: 1) replaceable battery 2) upgradeable/swappable memory 3) linux-based, welcoming of third-party software 4) no need to pay for the ability to use said software ($20 for a wifi gps update is ridiculous) 5) self-supporting and doesn't require a proprietary (non-linux) front-end app to interface with/file transfer. 6) no integrated file manager 7) Stylus > finger, try playing transport tycoon on the touch and I think most will agree (well if it even runs on it) 8) physical keyboard 9) real gps receiver, the wifi gps will only work in populated places where there is wifi, not in the wilderness where you need it the most... 10) over twice the pixels, even though the display size is only slightly larger (153600 vs. 384000 on the N810) 11) not designed to be obsoleted/disposable, it seems Apple makes most of their products to be intentionally obsolete after about a year or two, even if that doesn't bother you, remember that its non-replaceable battery isn't going to last forever. A "portable" music player that only works while plugged in, kind of defeats the portable functionality.

I think the iPod touch is a fine product for video and music, and it certainly has a well designed interface for what it does, but for new software, and especially for openness... I think the ITs have it beat quite soundly.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

um... i think i agree with the acheving things part, i mean come on guys, what have you achieved with it,
you can do a hell of a lot of things, but to be honest i havent gotten much work done on it....
and to be honest, i good percentage of stuff has "dubious usefullness"
a win on the hardware side, absoulutely, 100% agree for that (cept maybe memory, i mean 16gb>max like 10, and 32>10 even more...)
but by software, i think the potential over there is high, not to mention the sheer effort, and willpower placed over there, vs nokia of course, not our own magnificent developers
mostly unsuitable package manager, sure
but the missing thing here is where the touch fails at about half of those too, as they dont yet have any software worth mentioning outside of jailbreak, and we dont have anything even close to the power of their video player, we're way limited on that part, so i say he's right, just neglected to mention the other products problems, i guess

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

You can't do much work on an ipod touch either...

This being said, I use the Nokias for:
-general web browsing
-checking e-mail when travelling
-videophone (I sent a second one to my mother just for that)
-general telephone (skype) when travelling
-put some pictures on a blog for my extended family when travelling
-general entertainment, like watching movies, listening to music and reading books when travelling
-listening to French radios (both on travel and at home)
-checking on the weather and the news
-having saved maps of the city I travel to (maemo mapper)

less often:
-keeping accounts on a spreadsheet
-editing text

None of which counts as "work", but it is still quite useful. For example, the internet radio function alone is worth the (latest) price of the N800 for me, because there is no cheaper portable device that will do that (and not be linked to a windows PC or limited to what the manufacturer's web site allows you to listen).

The ipod touch can only do a fraction of that. The iPhone can do more of it, but using it abroad (outside of my home network) is prohibitely expensive in network charges (what most US residents don't realise). I mean 100€ per travel or more...

This being said, the ipod touch and iphone are very nice devices, no criticism on my part.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this... it seems to me we can play many more formats with our tablets than the iPod owners can, correct? At least as far as I'm aware the touch is limited to only AAC, MP3, AIFF and WAV for audio and H264/AVC in your choice of container formats. Through the power of MPlayer, VLC and the others, we can play all those plus plenty of others... DV, H.263, HuffYUV, Indeo, MJPEG, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, RealVideo, Sorenson, Theora, WMV, and in audio we have AAC, AC3, ALAC, AMR, FLAC, MP3, RealAudio, Shorten, Speex, Vorbis, WMA... I mean, do you really need more formats? =|

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I agree....it's pretty obvious the reviewer had already determined the winner before he even reviewed the two devices. After that it was just a matter of making the review match his preconceived ideas. I'm not saying the N810 is better in every area (that would be just as wrong), but he sided with the Touch in every area, even going so far as to completely blow off the benefit of Flash support when iPod owners have been screaming for Flash support almost since the day it was announced. It definitely wasn't a fair and unbiased review.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Not to mention that you don't always have to transcode files, which is becoming more common (at least for me) as software improves.

I think he could mean the Touch having an 18-bit screen or, I believe, a hardware decoder. You still scale videos down from the maximum supported resolution (640x480) for display in the end, which is a shame considering the addition of higher resolution content to the iTunes movie store.



I do have a question about his review. He mentions that nearly all his site links were added from his Touch. Did he type them by hand, or did 1.1.4 add copy and paste support? Seems like this would be one area where the N810 would shine, and at the very least it can't be much different to use a web form to submit links on either device.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

- i'm a big Mac fan... in fact, i'm typing this via my iPod Touch using a bluetooth keyboard and wifi connection...

- oh, wait... i can't do that!

(seriously though, i *am* a big Mac fan but i love my n800... which, with 32GB removable storage, still cost US$200 less than an iPod Touch)

:-)

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

One of the comments summerizes the differences of mindset between the ITT and the Apple crowd: "can the ipod touch run KDE and Koffice?" . I think such a question would be met with a blank glaze by an Ipod Touch fan.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I understand why someone would choose an ipod touch or a iphone over the n8*0. Two different crowds.. Iphone/touch is for people who most likely run windows at home and don't mind having to pay for new features and upgrades on a monthly bases. The n8*0 is for people who really dig cutting edge technology and know the true meaning of open source and the power of it. Iphone/touch is for the consumer chain people who buy stuff just because the next door neighbor has one. Some kid around my way saw my n800 and decided to buy one without even knowing what it was and is now selling it because he couldn't install limewire on it... Go figure!

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I used an itouch for the first time this weekend while at an Apple Store. And I've gotta say that I was really impressed. Of course, this comes as no surprise: that's what Apple does, it impresses on initial use. Of course, I am an n8x0 user for all the good reasons already canvassed above. And there's no danger of my switching. But man o man I would like to see as responsive a browser on the tablet. I was really blown away by that aspect.

But as I was playing around with it I realized that I couldn't figure out how to make the browser do what is for me one of the most important things I can do with tablet, and that's fit width to view. When I asked the attendant how this is done on the iTouch, he just looked at me and said, "Obviously we can't make the screen bigger, so when you zoom in to make the font bigger, you'll need to scroll horizontally to read the text." And when I said that he had misunderstood me, and that my nokia internet tablet can do what I was talking about, he responded, glibly, "Well, this is a full web browser." Um, ok. I just walked away, not bothering to disabuse him.

But this raises an issue that I know has been treated at length before. As I said, for me, the fit width to view feature is absolutely essential. I wouldn't have an IT/iTouch/whatever without it. If Diablo doesn't have it, I won't upgrade. I read most of my news on the tablet, and read blogs through bloglines mobile, and none of these would be remotely enjoyable to do without "fit width to view." I simply wouldn't be able to use a device with so small a screen unless I could easily set the font to an eye-friendly size (without making that the default font size). But, it seems, most users really detest "fit width to view." Indeed, the eminently knowledgeable and helpful neoncherry calls it an "abominable option on the tablet browser.", and others have echoed this. And of course I realize what this feature can do to the browsing experience when one isn't so much interested in reading things like news articles. But this is why it's so great to have it as an *option.*

Anyway, basically I am saying that I'd love to have a browswer on the n8x0 that is as pleasurable to use as the iTouch's. And of course I'm looking forward to diablo. But the lack of "fit width to view" in the touch is sufficient reason for me to say no thanks (even though there are plenty of reasons to say no thanks). And I sure hope that the maemo folks don't do away with the feature, even though so many seem to find little use for it.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Isn't choice a wonderful thing?

I really like the user interface on the iPod Touch - it's truly much better than Maemo on the Nokia.

But the iPod Touch fails to deliver what I need in all 3 of my main uses for the N800:
- Both work as internet devices (web browsing, email, chat), with different advantages and disadvantages to each, but the Nokia has Skype
- Both work as media players, but on the Nokia I get a music subscription service and more internet radio options
- The N800 works for me as an ebook reader because the screen is just big enough and has just enough resolution to make it feasible - the iPod falls just short.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I love my N800, and I get TONS of use out of it. On the other hand, I was blown away by the responsiveness and smoothness of the iTouch and iPhone browsing, scrolling, etc. (Anybody know if that responsiveness is due more to hardware or to software?) As far as I'm concerned, Nokia just has to get to that level of responsiveness and, for godsakes, have right-out-of-the-box PIM functionality (i.e., Calendar, To Do, Address Book, and Memos, with synch). That would make it a real competitor. (And if they competed better, the Tablets would have more market share, and we would get stuff like a DRM-capable Adobe Reader, websites that optimized for us, just like there are iPhone-optimized sites, etc.)

I can't see the iTouch as big enough for a book reader, whereas FBReader on my N800 is awesome, just perfect.

And my experience of a youtube video on the iPhone was underwhelming.

What I wonder about, also, is: What is it like to watch a feature film ripped for the iTouch/iPhone? I find it surprisingly watchable and enjoyable on my N800. (I just flew cross-country and back and watched, in all, three feature-length films, and I didn't get fatigued.) Has anybody watched a ripped feature film on the iTouch or iPhone? How was it?

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

One more thing: I think Nokia needs a better name than N-Series. For one thing, that seems to apply to the N95, etc., as well as the N770, N800, and N810. And saying "N800" is just awkward. For example, talking to my girlfriend, saying, "Do you want to take my N800 with you?" -- that's just clunky. (Hence, this is embarrassing, but we've nicknamed it Nubbins. So I can say, "Do you want to take Nubbins with you?")

It's also bad marketing since there is no good catch-all name that includes the three tablets they've already sold plus those in the future. "Nokia Internet Tablet" is too long a name and lacks cachet.

I thought "Blackberry" was a stupid name when I first saw one in 1999, but at least people can say, "I use a Blackberry," and you know what they're talking about. It wouldn't have caught on so fast if one person was saying, "I use a RIM B450" and someone else was saying, "I use a RIM B7000." But that's the kind of language we NIT users are stuck with.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I dont know about you, but I regularly use my N810 (of not the N800 maybe, but still same software) as

1) Call my home using Skype and Gizmo (I use Gizmo where Video is required and for Desktop to dektop), Skype for all other international calls

2) Use it as a excellent Podcast player and Audio player

3) Use it to connect wirelessly to the internet and read my blogs on the train - with a fast 3G connection over bluetooth

4) Wirelessly update and install apps on my N810 when ta home over Wifi or over Bluetooth at office

5) Use it as my contact manager and Calendar app - which also shows me my shared calendars on Google Calendar

6) I use it to jot down notes regularly while I am out and about.

7) Lastly also use it to watch my encoded movies while on plane trips (instead of watching the crappy fare).

8) Keep a tab on 5 day weather forecast while I am commuting from place to place or each regions weather conditions (OMweather).

9) Check emails and write and reply to my personal emails from the device - from anywhere using Wifi where available and BT PAN over my 3G connection thru phone.

10) sometimes as a last resort solution when I am mobile, I SSH into my servers and run or start/stop jobs which I am looking after.

Now that is all just usages which I do every day.

We can talk about the less often used features ... later when you stop smoking the crap that you are smoking when you talk about "dubious usefulness".

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Yeah, I completely agree. I think this is easily one of the key issues that Nokia must address as soon as possible. I can't tell you how many reviews I've read from people how ended up not liking the tablet overall because it doesn't include PIM tools. Good grief guys, hadn't you noticed that it isn't even advertised as having PIM? Critics can be idiots.

Anyway, I agree, I think the tablets would gain significant market share just from having these features well implemented.

Yeah, definitely. Again, another area Nokia needs to work on. Just look at "iPod", personally I do think it's a little bit cutsy sounding, but it's easy to remember, short, and unique to their product. I think Nokia should do the same for our tablets. Yeah, Nokia Internet Tablet is the generic name, but it's too long, like you say. And just Tablet is too generic. People would get it confused with Tablet PCs and UMPCs.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

- i know what you mean... i usually just say, "Would you hand me the tablet, please?"

(but my n800's 'secret name' [derived via wifi IP assignment] is "Pokey" as my PSP's name is "Peppy")

:-)

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Loooong time Mac user here. But when I saw the N800, I knew immediately that it was a better value for me - for all the reasons mentioned above and particularly the cost savings.

Now that I've had it a while, the downsides for me are the small screen that makes reading a chore after a short time (not that this would improve on an iPhone/iTouch) and the lack of ability to sync my Mac's Address Book. But since I invariably have my iPod in the same bag as my N800, that point is much less a sharp disappointment and much more of a dull desire.

In the end, I find I really am leaving the N800 at my bedside mostly. There, I:

- hook it up to an RCA-plugged speaker system and I get fantastic access to international radio stations that play for hours at a time,

- I have a great alarm system (when I set it correctly. Yesterday I managed to remember to 'spring forward' one hour but not set the alarm at all... whoops),

- thanks to another thread, I found the app that allows dimming of the screen for looooooong periods rather than it turning off so, combined with mClock, the N800 is now also my bedside clock that I can easily view if I wake up at night *and it won't get screwed up if the power goes out*,

- I can watch an episode or five of 'Rome' that's sitting on one of my 4GB cards while laying in bed (if I wake up at night) without having to convert the .avi,

- I can grab the N800 and read an email or scan the net,

- there's some very nice apps out there that help me make the N800 (mostly) work the way *I* want it to work,

- and when I know I'll be away on a trip, it's small enough and handy enough to toss into a bag and I get to bring all this goodness with me (assuming I'll have access to wifi).

I saw the iTouch and loved the design. But I hated the premium price and the closed access to 3rd party stuff. But it were sure purr-teh.

But, yeah, I wish they'd come up with something better than "Nokia N800 Internet Tablet"... .

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I struggled for awhile between buying the iPod Touch and a N810. I bought the touch first and returned it. The web experience was awful in my book. The software was also glitchy. I got bored very quickly even after jailbreaking it. It was pretty disappointing. Incidentally, when I returned it, the guy asked me why. I told him basically the same thing. He said there was a restock fee. No problem, anything to not own the oversized paperweight. He never said another word to me after that.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Horizontal scrolling bugs me. I'd never be able to use the iPod Touch for extended periods of time like I do my N800.

I don't find anything wrong with the package manager, it's very Linux-y. The problem is the amount of repos.
Do a barrel roll.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Don't know if this is your page, or who is responsible for it, but it's not altogether fair. It implies that the iTouch's earphone jack is not stereo, for one thing.

Also, the layout is annoying, as the table is not in a table (OK, is jammed into only one tr), and so the lines don't line up.

But it's a good point. If you think the polished slickness the iTouch offers is worth all the price and feature differences, go for it. But I don't value slickness that highly, and I don't really understand anyone who does.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

That's a result of poor formatting. Where it says "Yes, Stereo" actually applies to "Speakers". Both say "Yes" for "3.5mm Output".

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Um, what? It looks just fine to me, do you want it to be boxed like a spreadsheet or something? It says "stereo" because the N800 has two physical builtin speakers, and it says "no" because the iPod doesn't have any speakers built into it, this seems both correct and fair, I fail to see the problem here. Do you want it to say, "No, but the iPod might have speakers in the future!"? =/

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Yeah. I like that he says you can't do much that's useful with the N810. Considering you can't really do anything at all useful with the Touch.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

The biggest difference between the two devices is simply in the application of user experience. With the iPod Touch, the UX is created for you. You don't have to think about it as Apple has determined that. For many users, this works. The IT on the other hand has a more user defined UX model. This too works for many users. However, there are downsides to both, as have been noted here and on various other forums.

My most common assessment in this compairson has been that Nokia is closer towards making a device that will blend into one's expectations better than Apple. This is not to say that Apple missed the boat; they didn't. But they did show that with the IT that Nokia should do more steering of the global UX impact of this type of computing, and then give room for the IT community (developers and users) to play within this soapbox. Doing so will make the IT a clearer compairson to the Touch, and probably to the idea of tablet computing as lots of companies have been trying to do since the Newton/Palm Pilot.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Specs don't mean much when it sucks at all of its listed features =p

Video is terrible above 400x240, audio is not gapless and sounds OK at best. There is no media management, the browser freaks out when there is mouse over code and you can't click/drag, the email doesn't work with gmail.

Rhapsody will only stream, not let you own.

AACs and MP3's don't need conversion on touch, and 640x480 h.264 actually looks great (which the n800 can do none of)... on its TV output which he conveniently forgets to put on the list.

That said, IT SURE IS AN OPEN DEVICE! lol :)

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

good points

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

It's okay to go a bit higher 528x3xx or something. Having to transcode still sucks though. The default set of programs pretty much suck. Thankfully, it's an open platform and there are alternatives. mpd rules the gapless audio field and sound quality is good enough for those that aren't audiophiles. Browser doesn't freak out for me. Click/drag what? We have modest for email and that works great.

This implies that the NITs can't do so without conversion, which it can. It's not that it can't do it, as it is capable (just not

I'm grateful it is. The ability to do what you want surpasses glitz and glam for me any day.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Its not just glitz and glam :/ I think I shall give up my quest to defend the Touch here. I like the Nokia's and I don't want to alienate myself too much, if I haven't already!

I appreciate the idea of the ITs, but I just get flustered when users here pan a very refined device, which in most respects has things that Nokia needs to learn from.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Ok, I'll take this one. :D

And the iPod would be better how?

Gapless depends on the player software you use. And as for "OK at best", according to who? I have an iPod and an N800, as well as thousands of dollars of other fine audio equipment, and I detect no advantage between the iPod and the N800.

The media management works fine for me. Maybe you're a little too bought into the specific iPod interface?

Not that I've noticed.

I use it with gmail. Works fine for me.

As opposed to the iPod, where the subscription music services work so much better? Oh, wait... there aren't any.

And BTW, nothing stopping you from downloading tunes to your N800. I have thousands of them.

Nobody stores their music in the proprietary Apple AAC format except iTunes fanboys. I don't have a single AAC file on any of my systems or portable players. And MP3s don't need conversion on any player that I know of, including the N800.

Too iPod-specific, none of my other video players use h.264, so I don't store video in that format.

I guess they forgot that feature on my iPod. But I don't really have much use for a limited composite video output on a portable device when I can so much more easily plug an SD card or USB memory stick into my video system directly.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Me too :D

It doesn't tear or stutter. 1.5mpbs bitrate is fine on the iPod, 700 is about as high as you get on the N800.

640x352 h.264 video is very decent quality, barely less than DVD. This allows you to use one rip which functions on your Xbox 360, PS3, AppleTV, PSP or iPod/iPhone. You tell me, how is that better? :)

With some respectable headphones, just $99 sony studio monitors you can hear a reasonable difference. The gapless hasn't been possible so far on the N800, just another "potential" feature that everyone likes to say.

Maybe :) I enjoy having my podcasts and music automatically synced, but thats just me.

This is another one that you'll eventually run into. I don't feel like thread searching, but with the introduction of MicroB and its better support of javascript, there is problem sites that look for mouse downs and what happens when you try to drag is that the javascript intercepts it and you can no longer drag scroll.

There is at least 2 or 3 threads mentioning the gmail IMAP incompatibility. It typically arises when there is more than 50 messages in the inbox (which isn't much).

True :) I could argue this, but I'd like a subscription service.

I didn't say that

How is AAC proprietary? Nokia, Nintendo, Sony, and Apple use AAC now. That said, I rip in MP3 just to be consistent.

Xbox, PS3, PSP, Archos, Zune, AppleTV, Nokia Phones (N95, N81 etc...), YouTube...

You don't use it, others do. And its also component with 480p now.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Can somebody explain to me why gapless playback is so über-essential? :confused: I remember when it was first introduced into iPods and it seemed like everybody was like "OMFWTFBBQ!!! APPLE IS TEH ROXR!". I personally find it rather annoying, I prefer my music to NOT play end to end non-stop. How come its such a huge deal?

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

A lot of albums are actually meant to be gapless, it only does this for those albums specifically. Live concerts, electronic music, jazz etc...

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

It's fine for me.

You ignored most of my other post; I already said gapless playback is possible.

Yeah, that's pretty annoying. Thankfully, I scroll with the dpad. There aren't many of those sites, though. I hope it'll be fixed anyways.

Probably talking about DRM.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Sorry on the stereo bit; I got confused regarding which rows were supposed to line up. :o

I'm not saying it should have borders; I'm talking about the html structure. When you want a table, the thing to do is:
What this page has isIf you have the same fonts available, the same DPI, and the same default CSS as the author, the latter will come out looking OK, because none of the lines wrap; presentation details will create the illusion of proper structure.

But this approach is wrong for several reasons. Non-typical useragents (such as readers for the blind) don't understand the structure, and will read all the items, then all the N800 values, then all the iPod values. Presentation details cannot readily be controlled with stylesheets. And, perhaps most persuasively, with an ordinary useragent, such as Opera on my desktop, or Microb on my N800, the page is quite likely to display brokenly. An example is shown in the attached screenshot: Microb, 100% zoom, no width-fitting or anything.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

I think you're confusing two issues; there have been incompatibilities with GMail IMAP and the built-in client (still present, AFAIK) and Claws (fixed, I've heard). I've heard of no incompatibilities with Modest, but it does have an issue, which is not specific to GMail; you can set it to retrieve headers of the last 50 messages, but you can't set it to discard older headers, so they accumulate.

I'm using Modest with GMail, and 3741 messages in my inbox.

Re: iPod touch vs N810 at the Tao of Mac
 

Oh yeah, I see. No problem. ;)

I hadn't realized you were looking at it with MicroB, I'm using Firefox here and it looks fine. I had also looked at the source (before you mentioned it) and it is odd that the designer put ever thing in two <tr>s. I guess either he was lazy or was going for a particular 'look', there's no excuse for sloppy coding though. :p