Some things I don't understand
 

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Gizmo 5 (http://www.gizmo5.com) can do video calls from n800 / n810 to n800 / n810 AFAIK.

It can also do video calls from n800 / n810 to PC as well.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Well, you see, that's what I call responsiveness! :-)

OK, our last cam-call effort was made some weeks ago. The software available at that time didn't offer cam calls from tablet to tablet. Believe me, I checked.

Thanks for bringing me up to date!

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

To protect the rest of the world from people who think they have a lot more knowledge than they do!

Another question you didn't ask. Why is there so much spam and so many viruses in the world. Answer: because microsoft thought that people didn't need protection against their actions.
And they were wrong.

Sure thing if you want to hurt yourself, but I have to put in effort to read my mail because of all the other people that shouldn't have been allowed to have full access to a computer.

because memory cards are much slower than memory that you are using to run stuff.


The 810 has a keyboard.

Because they are one very small part of the internet that don't matter to a lot of people?

Just the 'why didn't they make an operating system designed to run a small keyboardless portable device with limited memory and smallish screen'.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Pretty much all you said has been said before. It is the frustrating part of the N800 tablets. We love the hardware, we aren't interested in the "other" devices out there because they don't measure up on some level, BUT

But the software side of the N800 is still SO WEAK. I'm guessing a lot of the development efforts end up going into the subsystem (hildon-gtk, microb, etc.) rather than in the polish and usability.

It is not hard to come up with simple and obvious UI fixes for almost everything on the tablets. Hopefully there is time for Nokia to get these things done before something else comes along that can draw us away.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Mostly because official PAN support isn't done, but with the community PAN support it should be fairly straightforward.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Are you saying Linux is too hard or it's too hard to get to the Linux underpinnings with ITOS?

I'm going to assume the later, anyway. It all goes back to Nokia's user-friendliness philosophy of keeping the users that don't know what they're doing away from Linux. Not that I particularly agree with it, but, really, if you've got a problem with anything, that's what bugzilla is for.

Such are the pitfalls of an immature Linux platform. An enhancement request for a GUI font-manager of some sort, maybe?

It does, it's called R&D mode. If not that, it's not as if the 3rd party packages are particularly hard to install.

Gizmo, amsn, and Google Talk all provide this and it's fairly dead-simple to use.

:rolleyes: C'mon, now . . . get yourself a Google Talk account for both devices and you're done. Dead simple. :)

Because that's how the upgrade process works. ;) This is irrelevant, anyway, as Diablo is just a little ways away.

Do you mean RAM or rootfs? Swap is RAM extension, and we already have this. rootfs extension is slightly less straightforward, but certainly do-able with a little Linux ability (or the ability to follow instructions closely). Nokia probably figured (largely correctly) that most users wouldn't run out the internal storage.

An enhancement request for GUI method to extend the rootfs to the internal card couldn't hurt, though.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

A couple of things:

That the file manager doesn't show all files have nothing to do with Linux being hard, it's a file manager application issue only. It's presumably written by Nokia, I haven't seen this file manager elsewhere. The issue is a real enough problem, the heading is misleading.

The above is a bit confusing. Are you talking about Memory, as in RAM, virtual memory (as in enough memory for a big application), or are you talking about storage space (as in enough room to install many applications).

For case 1: Swap space _can_ be enabled on the memory cards - that is how it works. Even though the N800 control panel application will only let you do that on the internal card (the system itself can use it wherever it's put).
For case 2: The main reason applications can't be installed into memory cards is that memory cards come default formatted as FAT filesystems, and FAT filesystems don't have proper access bits support - which means that you have to choose between every file being "executable" or no files being "executable". Blame Microsoft for this one.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Re: getting root access, all you have to do to get root is install one package (is it getroot or becomeroot? I don't remember...) through the package manager. Then, from the terminal, sudo gainroot makes you root... The days of ssh being required, or of having to reflash with rd-mode, are gone. I assume you're referring to one of those techniques with "developer-class knowledge".

For fonts, you need to use fc-cache... dunno if you tried that and still had trouble.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Er, I'm saying these are old questions that finally did get responded to.

OK, instead of the open-ended tablet we have, there might be a smoother-operating but closed-environment tablet. I can grok that. Just, I think a few user aspects might have been dealt with over these last two-plus years.

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I didn't offer up these complaints two years ago, though plenty did.

It just seems ridiculous that the built-in apps are clueless in these significant ways, and that the tablet is harder to use than regular Linux (for us Linux tourists).

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

becomeroot or easyroot. Both work, though I mildly prefer easyroot (type 'root' ;)).

A restart also works.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Not talking about a closed environment tablet. There are many faults which could be fixed without any closing at all.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I'm not disagreeing with you. If the built-in software that presents itself to the end user was complete, polished and easy to use I would be pushing these tablets on everyone I met. But it just ain't so.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Trust me Roger, if half of the things you mention were enabled, this forum will be flooded.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

"Official." Hm-m. That's what I'm talking about. My internet device isn't very useful when the most natural path to the internet (at times) is ignored. Says I.

I'm just saying that Linux is way stricter than MacOS and Windows about keeping such users from harming things unwittingly. That's already. The barriers put into the IT OS are overkill.

I can do that. But taking a look around at, well, the internet would point out the significance of making it easy to adapt things to the way the user wants them. I mean, what are there, 4000 plug-ins for Firefox?

We live in our browser. Making it feel right to each of us should be simple as dirt.

The reason I write a blog called Internet Tablet Users blog is that I have an unyielding resistance to leaving the realm of what-a-typical-user-is-expected-to-know. If you think R&D mode is bending sufficiently far in this direction, then I would respectfully suggest that you have become insensate to the needs of users who have been using computers for 5-10 years already but don't want to spend any more time learning computer tips and tricks. That encompasses virtually everyone I know, btw (excepting only some of the 12-year-olds in the neighborhood who have only 3-4 years experience). I've used it. But I shook my head every time, muttering foul sentiments.

Gizmo's capability is newer than my last check with them. I'm happy to hear about it. amsn is unknown to me. And if you think getting the cam capability to work with Google Talk is easy, you're mistaken.

Four of us spent longer than an hour in February trying to get it to work, and we failed. However clever or dumb we are, we had the desire and inclination to make it work and we put in the time. And we couldn't get it going, despite 7 degrees among us (and one high-schooler who lives on IM).

If it's dead-simple, then something really is wrong. Or missing. Like better instructions or easier-to-find information or wider-ranging trouble-shooting advice.

Where were you when my brother-in-law was shaking his head at our inability to let the IT strut its stuff?


Good answer for 2005. 2006 too. Probably not for 2007. Not at all for 2008. IMO.


I was indeed referring to rootfs extension. Since you can't increase the IT's RAM, swap is the only way to get a bigger workspace. Now, again, I don't have a problem with requesting this particular enhancement.

But when a rhetorical question is asked, it's because the interlocutor believes the question is already well known. It's not "Why is this feature this way?" It's "Why is this feature still this way? Haven't we brought it up enough times already for something to have been done?" At least, as I see things.

Roger
(corporal in the IT army, enlisted June 2005)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Perhaps I'm infelicitous in my wording. The way Nokia has implemented even simple things like looking at your files is ridiculous.

I know it's not Linux that prevents my seeing the files, but Nokia's particular offering here. How many people buying internet tablets will never have used a file manager on a computer before? Doesn't it seem ridiculous to you on its face that you can't override this restriction?

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

It's quite strange really. Nokia makes a product that really has good potential and then releases it half finished. The hardware side seems fine but the software side is lacking. It would have been fine if it was a developer release device, but as a device for anybody, it's not good enough.

The OS seems half way developed and then they hope that developers will fix the rest.

Make a good software environment (no PIM?!??) so that normal users can use it. And make it open so users how want to hack and develop are free to do so. Why is that so hard?

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I did install easyroot. But why did I need to? If it's simple enough for a single install to make things work naturally (eg, the same as with other Linux distros), why not just have a switch somewhere in the Control Panel -- "Let Linux be Linux, remove super-protector features".

I've installed fonts before and used them, in FBReader.

Can you add a new font to your IT and choose it in the browser in under 30 seconds? Under 3 minutes? Sure can in our desktops.

Please — don't tell me how to change this in the browser. I'd rather figure it out on my own and give myself something more to stoke my frustration.

OK, just kidding. But barely.

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

:-)

(Any real way to answer that?)

My hope isn't that all the power will be released in the Internet Tablets, but that POLS will be better implemented and the things one wants to do often will be made easier to use.

Roger

(Following the principle of least surprise means that when the user doesn't know what to do, he or she tries what seems most logical (based on how everything else works) and, sure enough, it works somewhat the same in this circumstance. )

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

i have to say that the video call between two gtalks on two internet tablets are a nobrainer..... and it worked every time i tried. I seriously cant imagine anyone not getting it to work. May be something wrong with the network you tried or something else.... but it is very very straightforward.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I second your feelings Roger, in my IT area I'm a "guru" (no OS stuff), but I simply can't be bothered to digg into every corner of a OS to do things that are plain simple from *user* point of view.

I bought the N800 especially as "on the road" backup solution for my photography (and that's more or less coming alright now) and to be able to upload things and check web based mail.
So I got it and it's doing that. bravo. really.

But if I see all the other possible things who are so badly "finished" (from user experience point of view) I find it a waist of resources.
And find all the reactions here on a request like (just a example) "the Tablet could use a decent PIM-calendar etc) that simply works out of the box" rather silly, to the extent that some OSS zaelots keep on say'ing "you can write you're own". Indeed, I might be able to do so, but I did not bought the damn thing *to spend months writing my own PIM suite*.
The damn thing has more cpu/ram/disk then my mobile but even that gives on it's little screen a *much* better "experience", I can only wonder what it would be to have a good set of tools that actually uses the screen estate in a decent way.
And I just wished I could leave my MP3 player at home if I taken the N800 with me, but so far non of the offerings offer the experience of a "real" MP3 player.
And then the "core side", the "internet side", to check your mail in gmail the browser is fine, but all to often it's a pain to use.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Well, ideally (if we're on the subject of users), a user shouldn't even have to consider root access, but, like I said, this is still an immature platform (and still a platform primarily intended for developers), and these issues are part of the growth.

I've done it in OS2007 and OS2008 from a bunch of different locations to several different people with NITs (for GTalk) and PCs (for Gizmo). I can't say that I ever had a problem with either, so, perhaps I am, but I'm simply speaking from experience.

I'm sorry, what? Flashless updates are literally a month away. The point is irrelevant now. I suppose if you want to complain about how long it took them to get there I'd understand, but that's just a little unproductive.

TA-t3 covered the basic technical issues pretty well in his post, but I'll expound further.

FAT doesn't support permissions, so to run executables off of a FAT partition you'd need to put together some sort of ugly hack—bad plan, that's out. The next option is to switch to a filesystem that supports permissions, so, basically, Ext2/3. Great, but, oops since Linux is the only platform supports Ext without extra work from the user, looks like all those poor Windows and Mac users wont be able to mount their card anymore.

Since we can unify the filesystem on the card, we partition it, right? OK, this could work, now we just have to partition the card, so, take your card, backup everything you need off of it, and put it back in. Good, now take it back out and put everything back on it. Oh, doesn't fit? Where did my 512MB go? Why can't I use that?

The consumer-usability point is an important one. What happens when the user removes their card (or swaps it out for another) and loses all their installed applications? Or the card dies? Or they want to take it out and plug it into their Windows (or OS X) machine and it asks to format it?

Point is, it's a non-trivial thing to do, both from a technical standpoint and from a user's point of view. It may seem simple, but it's not.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

This is what we were expecting. (And why I kept persisting for so long.)

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that that's your experience. I wasn't wrong to expect it.

Since it wasn't what happened to us, I guess what I wish for is something at hand that says "If this isn't dead-simple, maybe such-and-such is to blame. Or try looking at some-other-thing to see if that's why you can't get the cam call to work."

For that matter, I already did get half my wish (at the time), which was that Gizmo and Skype would get this working.

I'll be trying Gizmo's cam calls when I get home.

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Ummm... It doesn't seem all that different to me, but OK. It's a bit wierd to be installing the root-enabler; my expectation would have been that root is naturally accessible, but that you have to install xterm to make use of it. (As xterm is not of horribly much use without root access.) Either way, I have to make some installation/reconfiguration to convert a consumer appliance into a computer; to me, that's expected.

(Oh, and if you want Nokia's reasoning for keeping root access locked down, I think it's cause there are no other good options without requiring every user to be aware of root's existence by setting the root password on initial setup. But you seem to be cool with some default lockdown, just concerned with how it's to be gotten around.

Your suggestion that it should be "the same as with other Linux distros" assumes homogeneity of those other distros. In reality, they range from

• running as root normally (Lindows; I don't know if recent versions of Linspire are still like that)
• giving you sudo all/nopasswd/all (but not su, to encourage only doing the one thing that needs root as root) (Ubuntu)
• Conventional UNIX behavior, su and you need the root password (Slackware)

We seem to have fallen a little off the "safe" end of the spectrum, but it doesn't seem that hard to start opening things up.

I don't need to change my browser font very often; it wouldn't bother me if it took a half hour, really. Now, terminal font, that's another story. And fortunately, once I found about fc-cache, it's easy and painless.

It quickly becomes obvious that microb is missing any sensible configuration method; you can either go to about:config, or you can settle for the three-checkboxes preferences dialog. And that's a sad failing, even though I'd be using such config for lots of other stuff, not for fonts.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Well, you'd have the same trouble making a swap partition, but they use a swap file instead.
You could do the equivalent of a swap file; a loopback filesystem...

But of course, this \/ is valid still.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

From whatever side you look at it, root access is bad to a normal user and it is not easily accessible on a desktop system too. Yes, Nokia took one step further to disable accidental root access by default and i second that. No power user can find hard to install the one package needed to enable it.

VFAT is not a very bad, but not very good decision too, but at least Nokia could have modified the application manager to allow install access there, the current situation is just wrong.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

. . . and, unfortunately, I believe it's largely related to that dirty, rotten, piece of crap, abomination-before-god-and-nature, sonofa***** UI spec—the one we can't file bugs against. :mad:

:explodes:

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Ok, but HOW has it been brought up?

I look in bugzilla, and I see bugs that have to be affecting most if not all users, and they may have 1 or 2 votes on them and few if any comments. I'm gonna remove my corporate hat here for a second and ask in general: putting yourself in maemo's shoes, how would YOU prioritize bugs? What feedback channel do you utilize-- maemo.org, or itT? No offense to itT (I do, after all, live here :D) but it isn't the best vehicle for bugs/requests/etc. Great for brainstorming, but not for ultimate conveyance and management.

Now, some will protest that common users shouldn't have to participate. Fair enough-- there are certainly plenty of advanced users who could do much more about bringing bugs to maemo's attention and/or elevating them to proper priority.

So let's hit it, gang. VOTE ON THOSE BUGS!!! And by all means, argue (respectfully) to get your points across if need be. In a world of finite resources, allocation tends to be determined by volume-- and that doesn't always mean quantity. ;)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Point taken.

I'm sure there are plenty of ways I can get myself into trouble. I keep thinking: This is just one more way. :-)

Making it possible to enlarge the working space is too important to set aside, I think. OK, maybe only 'those of you who laugh in the face of danger' should have this going for them. (Or maybe it's really: 'those of you who won't call Nokia for help when you screw up in one of the afore-mentioned ways.")

Or maybe models should be offered with the option of buying considerably more RAM. One thing we know about electronic devices — future software wants more RAM than current software. A fixed amount obsoletes your IT faster than it ought to.

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Agreed, but remember: there was a time when most laptops did not offer ram upgrades, either-- and do you remember the costs when they finally did? :eek:

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

My main problem is pretty much the overall instability and brittleness of OS2008 on the N800, making virtual thumb keyboard use, well not very usable. Talked about it here:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=16365&page=3

Screen tap goes to random places / Especially when typing fast on full screen keyboard
One key input causing multiple repeats
High pressure sensitivity with no configuration
Finger tap not bringing up finger keyboard

Wonder if such a problem exists on tho N810, although those users r most likely be just using the physical keyboard, so the problems above are not as apparent. Either way, it's no reason for a newer non-beta version to be less stable.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Glad to contribute in this way. But where? Link please...

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

that playlist thing, am i missing something here? i could have sworn that can be done.

just add stuff to a empty "current playing" and then hit "save list"...

but then im the kind of guy that insert all my music into the default list and hits "random". old winamp habit i guess ;)

as for hidden dirs, they are often hidden for a reason (mostly because you normally have no reason to mess around in them on day to day). but yes, that missing feature was annoying me on the 770. but now there is emelfm2, so i dont care any more.

fonts, browser or otherwise, i have never cared much about. yes, i have seen people write page after page about fonts, aliasing and whats not. me, i just use defaults as long as they are readable. but then im geek, not artist ;)

video calls, welcome to the 80's. this is something that there have been much talk about but i have yet to be convinced has any real value. sure, its fun at times to watch whoever it is thats talking with you. but just as often i find myself talking while doing other stuff, resulting in the bandwidth of the video bit being wasted at best.

updating i can agree on. that one is just downright insane. even the nokia phones can deal with that...

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Just to make sure everybody involved is crystal clear RAM and application installation space are not the same thing.

With that aside.

I may be completely wrong here (I recall seeing this mentioned more than once, but I could perhaps have misunderstood or taken things out of context—somebody with a more intimate knowledge of OMAP please *****-slap me if I'm just talking out of my *** here) Manufacturing models with more or less RAM is a less trivial thing to do on an OMAP system than a regular laptop (one thing I am certain of, though, is that aftermarket expansion of that RAM is most certainly out of the question), as the RAM is manufactured into the SoC, rather than in a separate chip. So, to offer two models (say, one at 128MB and one at 256MB) it wouldn't simply be a matter of swapping out a RAM chip.

While I don't disagree that it would be a nice option, I don't really think it's super-appropriate for a mobile device right now. Personally, I'd rather just see Nokia put 512MB into the things with zero impact on either cost or battery life. :p

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Agreed. But a lot of issues that are mentioned on ITT are a result of Nokia's design decisions rather than bugs in the strict sense. Maybe something like Ubuntu's brainstorm would be a better solution.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

It doesn't matter. Forget the word "bug"-- there's a place for everything on maemo bugzilla.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Most, if not all, of these issues are fixed in Diablo.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

You have access to something I don't? :D

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Truthfully, he does have a point (although I'm not sure it was actually intentional, and assuming it wasn't, then your point is also valid :p). Issues with Nokia's stupid, lame, wife-beating, backwards UI spec don't (seemingly) get resolved through bugzilla. Look at all the (perfectly reasonable, and well thought-out) enhancement requests that get WONTFIXed because of the UI spec.

We really need a place to get changes made is that heaping pile of used prophylactics.

Nah, just bugzilla. ;)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

To an extent I agree, but I still have to believe that the proper amount of protest can instigate change...