[ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I have created a "proof of concept" (V0.1) software release to support an external screen for the tablet, using a VGA USB adapter. This is, of course, only of interest if you have one of these adapters.

The current release includes three things, all built for Chinook (OS2008):

1. Kernel driver to communicate with the USB VGA device
2. Image display program which displays a single image on the screen and exits
3. Xserver which allows Xwindows applications to display on the screen

These three features work (at least for me!) but there are several tasks on the ToDo list to make this generally useful. That is why I am calling this a "proof of concept" release. It really isn't ready for general use yet, not even as a "beta" release. However, I am keen to encourage people who have the necessary hardware to test it, and I am keen to encourage others who are interested in this capability to join the development project. But be aware that the X-server, in particular, cannot handle more than a few updates per second.

This software is being developed in a garage project called xsisusb: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/xsisusb/. More information is available at that project, including bug reporting in the tracker. Please let me know if you are interested in joining the project.

Here is the current ToDo list from the garage project, to give some idea of the thoughts I have for developing the project:

• sisusbvga: Load kernel module
• xsisusb: Optimise updates
• Add mirroring
• Create documentation
• xsisusb: Support more modes
• sisbit: Display more image types
• Slideshow viewer

Of these, the slideshow viewer is my real goal as I am doing this because I would like to be able to show powerpoint presentations (for example at conferences) using the tablet.

For the brave, or foolish, instructions on how to get this proof of concept working are available at http://xsisusb.garage.maemo.org/. The instructions that appear later in this thread are now out of date.

Note that this requires a USB-attached VGA adapter built using an SiS USB VGA chipset. The adapter I am using is made by StarTech.com and is called "USB 2.0 to VGA Display Adaptor USB2VGA2". Also note that the code in this project so far was mostly originally written by Thomas Winischhofer who, however, bears no responsibility for this implementation.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Wow, thanks :) Now, I got to get me a USB adapter. Forget NoBounds :p (once update speed is better)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

IMPORTANT: The instructions for using the proof-of-concept release of xsisusb are now at: http://xsisusb.garage.maemo.org/. The instructions given below are out of date and should no longer be used. They are left here just so that the flow of the thread make sense.

NOTE: This release has hardly been tested and has a number of restrictions. It is mainly intended for developers and is only really usable if you are comfortable using the Linux command line.

• Hardware requirements and connectivity
• Installing the software
• Linux kernel driver
• Image display
• X-server

Hardware requirements and connectivity

The software requires an external VGA adapter attached using USB 2.0 and using a SiS USB VGA chipset. The adapter I am using is made by StarTech.com and is called "USB 2.0 to VGA Display Adaptor USB2VGA2". There are other adapters available and it would be useful if people could reply here if they can report success using any other adapter.

The adapter needs to be connected to the tablet, with the tablet operating in USB host mode (a powered hub will be needed). There is information on how to set that up for the N810 in this thread.

My configuration uses: the Nokia-supplied USB cable, a USB-A to USB-A gender changer, the standard A-to-B cable for my hub, the powered hub, the USB2VGA2 USB cable. I turn on USB host mode using:

Installing the software

The software is currently hosted in my experimental repository: http://www.cobb.uk.net/NokiaIT/experimental.html.

To install the software, add a new Application Catalogue to the Application Manager with the following details:

• Catalogue name: Graham's experimental repository
• Web address: http://www.cobb.uk.net/apt/
• Distribution: chinook
• Components: experimental
• Disabled: X

I recommend you keep this repository disabled except when you are actually installing stuff from it (nothing in that repository is normally expected to work!).

To install the software, enable the repository and install the following packages: sisusbvga-2.6.21, sisbit, xsisusb. Then disable the repository again.

Linux kernel driver

The kernel driver is installed as /lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/sisusbvga.ko.

First, plug in the USB device (and enable USB host mode if you have not done that yet). Check using dmesg that the device has been seen by the kernel.

To start the driver, issue the following commands as root:

Check, using dmesg, that the driver has configured the device.

Image display

Static images can be displayed on the external screen using the sisbit program. At the moment, sisbit only supports images in the PPM format. A sample image is installed in /usr/share/sisbit/test.ppm.

This program can be run by the user, it does not need to run as root.

X-server

The X server is an integrated, non-configurable server, based on kdrive, just like the Nokia-supplied Xomap server. It is installed as /usr/sbin/Xsisusb and it can be run by the user, it does not need to run as root.

This server has null drivers for keyboard and mouse: no input or pointer events happen. It should be possible to send keyboard and mouse events using something like x11vnc (although it doesn't seem to work at the moment).

To see the list of options, use:

I normally run the server with the following command line:

• :1 -- this is the X display to use. Note that the normal screen is using display :0 so it is necessary to specify a different display.
• -ac -- this turns off all access control (security) so anyone who has TCP/IP connectivity to the tablet can create windows on the external screen.
• -screen 1024x768x24/32 -- this specifies the display mode to use. The following values are allowed: 640x480x16/16, 640x480x24/32, 800x600x16/16, 800x600x24/32, 1024x768x16/16, 1024x768x24/32, 1280x1024x16/16, 1280x1024x24/32.
• -noreset -- do not reset the X-server when there are no clients left. This is because I typically do not run a window manager.

There are no ordinary X-windows programs available on the Internet Tablet, as far as I am aware, so to display something on the screen you need to use a remote system. The following command line will display a clock at the bottom right hand corner of the screen:

192.168.1.247 must be replaced with the IP address (or hostname) of the Internet Tablet.

Note: the Xsisusb server currently displays a . whenever a screen update occurs (it then copies the whole framebuffer to the device). This is to help me judge whether too many updates may be happening.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

x11vnc can be used to provide a way to make a mouse and keyboard work on the display. For example, I ran x11vnc on a remote Linux system using the command:

(the -noshm is important to use x11vnc remotely)

I then ran vncviewer on the same system (displaying on that system's display):

I could then use the remote system's mouse and keyboard to interact with applications displayed in the vncviewer window and on the VGA screen. Of course, this was very slow because lots of updates occur. Maybe with the Xsisusb server optimised and the vnc server running locally on the tablet this interaction could be made usable.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I'm not sure what you mean by "ordinary X-windows programs"; as I'm sure you're aware, all maemo apps are X clients. I'd expect that by for example, you could make the browser display on it. And certainly most ported programs should work, either by setting the DISPLAY environment variable, or by the -display (or equivalent) option, which may not exist in dedicated maemo apps.

I'd try it myself, but I don't have one of those adapters (yet).

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Would synergy work with this? Without remoting the video it would probably be faster. It compiles on maemo without any modifications, although im not sure if a/the mouse cursor hack works with it.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Benson: Unfortunately Hildon apps seem to get very upset that they cannot find a sapwood server. By "ordinary X-windows programs" I mean non-Hildon. If anyone finds any programs which do work locally please reply to this topic so we can maintain a list.

pipeline: synergy probably works. The Xsisusb server supports Xtest and x2vnc (a similar program which uses a vnc server) works. However, every cursor movement causes the whole screen to be reloaded (several MB of data to send over the USB) so it isn't practical until the update optimisation is done.

Graham

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Some Hildon apps (I only tried gpe-calendar) will work if you run a sapwood server and a matchbox window manager. The following two commands seem to work:

You can then run gpe-calendar with:
However, it is not at all clear that Hildon apps are really what you want on an external VGA screen: there is no touchscreen, there is no way to get an application back once you have iconised it, there may be more real-estate available, etc.

It may be that we really want to create versions of some apps that use Maemo but do not use Hildon (but are compiled for armel, use the Maemo versions of libc, glib, etc.)!

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

That's the Holy Grail for me as well.. thanks for working on this! Now I've got to buy myself one of those adapters.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

OTOH, Hildonized apps are here now; good to know they work. Search wmctrl and kciconsbox (from kotczarny, not sure on spelling) for help dealing with windows.

One of your goals was a presentation viewer; have you tried evince over X (with the presentation saved as a PDF)?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Yes, that was what I tried first (actually I have tried it both remotely and locally). Unfortunately the sorts of presentations I work with produce too complex PDF. Some of the time the viewer just crashes, the rest of the time it takes up to 10 seconds to display the next page! Not an option for a presentation in front of an audience.

However, I think I have found a good solution to that. PowerPoint can save a presentation as a series of JPG image files (or other image formats). These are quite easy for the tablet to handle. I believe the sisbit program will be fairly easy to extend to display jpegs (or some other format PPT supports) and then all I need is a script to drive it: to let me move forward and backwards through the image files. That is what I mean by the slideshow program.

I think that is also the right engineering solution: do as much preprocessing as possible before loading the files onto the tablet and keep the tablet's task down to managing the user experience, not doing complex processing. It even means we don't actually need X for slideshows!

I am willing to consider other ideas but that is the best I have come up with so far!

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Well, it'd be handiest to have the slideshow all in one file; PDF is the best suited format I know (resolution independent and all), but if we haven't got the oomph...
(I don't generally have a problem, after setting settings in either PrimoPDF or OOo suitable for such work, but I assume you know what you're doing, and have made appropriate choices.)

We could, of course, bundle the jpegs into a pdf, one per page. But we've just tossed the main benefit of pdfs, and keeping the overhead seems mildly ******ed. The only benefit from this approach is pdf compatibility for those presentations that do work well.

Probably the best choice is a tarball of images; any pdf that would work well can, after all, be rendered into such a tarball on the tablet fairly quickly (while walking to the location of the presentation).

I'd suggest just a gzipped tar of ppms, which will be displayed in lexical order, but it's also possible to use an index in the tar; perhaps that would be good for storing notes to be displayed on the tablet screen.

A script to display a series of images, advancing on enter, would be trivial; but a C helper program is probably in order to allow reversing conveniently. It might be worth making a Hildon app to control it, allowing a thumbnail view, current slide & notes, etc. on the tablet side, but with xterm, a shell script, and said helper, you could get notes, previous and next slide titles, and obviously flipping slides with the arrow keys to work well for 1% the effort.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Got my StarTech adaptor today from newegg along with a 7-port D-Link USB hub (interestingly, this is currently the only USB hub at my parents house), and played with the VGA out. It's quite, cool. Thanks, Graham!

Flickr set

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/...b10fd3c747.jpg

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I'm getting one in about a month (when things slow down). I wish I had had it today; I had to give a presentation (from PDF) on the professor's macbook. What a pain, but using my laptop was being an even bigger pain. Ability to plug N800 into projector would have been awesome, both for swiftness of setup and for impressing the prof, who had previously asked if my N800 was an iPhone, and was somewhat skeptical as to my claim that it was better.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

On the swift aand convenient note, having to use a powered hub is a particularly irritating inconvenience A AA-powered hub would probably be an option, but what about some sort of inline power injector?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I have created an updated version (V0.2) of the proof-of-concept. The major change is that sisbit now knows how to display JPEGs and I have created a very simple slideshow script that can be used from Xterm to display slides.

Instructions on how to download and use the software are now on the project web pages: http://xsisusb.garage.maemo.org/. Please disregard the instructions given earlier in this thread. The "how-to" on showing PowerPoint slides is at http://xsisusb.garage.maemo.org/powerpoint.html.

There are still several additional tasks which we really need to complete including: optimising X-server updates; creating a more powerful slideshow script; and further researching the Powerpoint display options to be able to have good quality and high speed both at the same time! If you are interested in working on these or other developments, please look at the project pages on https://garage.maemo.org/projects/xsisusb/ and join the discussion list. You do not need to be a developer to help with these!

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

This is very cool indeed. I'm very much looking forward to testing this out myself. Targus docking stations are just 90 euros. they should do the trick nicely.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Very cool stuff indeed! A few points of interest/questions/thoughts... first off, just in general, are most of the USB-VGA adapters based on the SiS chipset, or are there a whole slew of different chips out there? I know that there are at least two different versions of the Startech adapters (usb2vga, usb2vga2) that support different resolutions, and there are also some by other manufacturers... but of course, nobody in their right mind reveals chipset information ;o)

One item in my research that really caught my eye is that in addition to their USB2VGA adapters, Startech also makes a complete docking station solution:
http://www.startech.com/item-specs/U...g-Station.aspx
I'm kind of hoping they'd use the same chipset for the VGA adapter build into that bad boy... and we've got pretty good support for Network adapters with the various kernel modules that are available, and since the thing has it's own power source it's also going to eliminate the need for a powered hub. Now, not exactly the most compact portable solution (though I still can't find dimensions on the blummen thing anywhere), but for presentations/or at a fixed place like home it would be an awesome one USB cable solution to a lot of needs. If anyone's interested I can source them for about $120 Cdn; I just don't have the extra cash to pick one up at the moment to play with!
I can also get my hands on the USB2VGA and USB2VGA2 adapters (the latter being slightly more expensive as apparently they do a slightly higher resolution?) and I will get them up for purchase in a new "developers" category on my site in the next few days hopefully... they're somewhere in the $100 Cnd range, so not cheap, but if they work, would be worth while!

Thanks again for all the great work so far!
-Rob

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I was tempted by those USB2VGA adapters, but between uncertainty over whether they'd work and the higher resolution anyway, I went with the USB2VGA2; I couldn't find anything about chipsets, either, though the driver is identical AFAICT.

The USB2DVI is also interesting, but different drivers means it's probably not the same chipset, and it costs even more.

That station looks interesting. The video conditions match the USB2VGA2, so I'd bet that it's the same chipset. I'm not sure how likely it is that the audio could be made to work, but the ethernet's reasonably likely, and the hub + VGA would be dandy...

But the 6-in-1, with no audio or video, but with PS/2 mouse and keyboard (who doesn't have a pair of those kicking around somewhere?), parallel, and serial, in addition to the RJ-45 and USB hub, is even cheaper, and also interesting as an actual usable dock for desktop use of the N800; especially if its connector was glue-ganged with a power adapter, and perhaps one of your audio splitter cables for speakers and desktop mic.

I'm not ready to jump for either of those at the moment, but they're both possibilities in the future. (Right now, I have one of those spider hubs modded and working, and am waiting for time to do a tidy job on the other one with pictures online... USB2VGA2 is on the way, so I don't have all that much use for either docking station, nor all that much time for playing with it.)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

By the way, qwerty12 has noticed that Nokia have included the sisusbvga driver in the initfs for Diablo so I plan to drop the sisusbvga package and stop supporting chinook. The chinook module will remain in SVN in case it is useful to anyone.

Any objections?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

so i take it this stuff is built into diablo now?

interesting. now to find a compatible usb device...

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

No, I don't think so. As far as I know, just the kernel module is included. You still need the rest of my sisusb packages to do anything with it. But you never know, maybe it means someone inside Nokia is looking at it?

Graham

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I'd say it does mean that...

As for dropping kernel support, yeah, even Karel Jansens has switched to Diablo now, and I'm in the process of emailing Diablo to someone who needed it and can't download it... I think the few people running Chinook should be fine with the current version until they upgrade.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I'm fine with it. have it since june, and works well.

And since I'm booting from a 16gb SD, I don't want to spend days trying to restore my system to the way it was (about 75% of the installed programs are from repositories - others are manual debs).

that's why I still go with chinook

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Hi,

I made a little step forward to use the actual poc as solution for holding presentations a little bit easier.

I compiled anyremote for chinook(works under diablo aswell) to remote control the sisbit script via a standard bluetooth mobile phone.
See this list if you could use your phone as well (I used a 6230i and 6151 from Nokia).

So my vision of a desktop solution becomes quite real :)

So what to do (all your USB2VGA2 adapter is ready to use and sisbit software installed):

1. Install bluetooth part of anyremote on the N800/N810 (attached deb file)
2. Put the unzipped config file sisslide.cfg (attached) anywhere on your tablet as well.
3. Put the unzipped slideshowscript showslide.sh (attached) in /home/user
4. Adjust your path of slides and slidename prefix at the beginning of the script (IMAGEPRE)
5. Be sure it has the x-bit: chmod +x /home/user/showslide.sh
6. Upload the java client from the anyremote website to your phone (i did it with gammu -nokiaaddfile ... from my linux machine)
7. Start server N8x0 side: anyremote -f [path]/sisslide.cfg
8. Select anyremote application on phone, choose connect via BT address, enter BT address of your N8x0.
9. Press 6 for going forward through your presentation.
10. Press 4 for going backward through your presentation.
11. Press 2 for resetting the actual slide number to the start slide

Such a remote control of the tablet is mosty not interesiting for the users, because from remote you can't see what's the reaction on the screen if you press buttons on your phone.
But with the usb2vga adapter and the great sisbit software it's quite funny to use your usual mobile phone controlling your presentation from the tablet.

Now I think the only part left is the x-server of the N8x0 controllable by mouse natively and we have it ;)
USB keyboard, mouse, usb2vga adapter...
Mobile tablet for stationary use...

I intend to present this at the maemo summit in a lightning session - press your fingers crossed for me, that it is accepted.

Good luck with this!

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

hi there,

just have two small questions:
1) How did the presentation at the maemo summit go?
2) I noticed you uploaded a new version... what are the modifications?

thank you

Ilia

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

The presentation slides can be found here.

Regards,
asys3

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

After having a chat with Graham about Xserver modifications, and with some Nokians who were mentioning that the USB otg host is slow, I'm interested. Has anyone worked out the (actual) USB bandwidth? Obviously only updating the parts of the screen that need to be would be an optimisation, but won't really solve the problem of displaying videos, etc.

Where's the cheapest place to get one of these in the UK?

Cheers,

Si

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I've only been able to find one place that sells it part from startech's UK website, £62 + P&P =~ £67, i.e. about US$125!
http://www.systemsassurance.com/syss...eferer=Froogle

on startech's website, click top right if you need to change country to UK, then search for "USB2VGA2". they don't list the 4-in-1 dock :(
http://www.startech.com/item/USB2VGA...y-Adapter.aspx

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I did my Easy Debian presentation using the Nokian internal version of this hack. They actually clone the tablet's screen to the external display, and it works... sort of.

My slide animations looked fine on the tablet but they were so slow on the external display that they weren't really animations.

Anyway, they kinda-sorta promised a release of their patches, but still nothing...

These are the guys to prod about getting us their video-out stuff:

Productivity Bundle webpage

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

My Easy Debian package has a good :1 display to use as a test-bed for trying to get Hildon apps to run on an alternate display. I start the Xephyr nested xserver on :1.

There's some bad news, however. The standard stable of Hildon apps will not start on display :1, even using the above technique. I can get xmms to run on :1 without starting sapwood or matchbox, but browser and osso-xterm always go to display 0, even when I issue "killall openbox" (openbox is the window manager running on :1 by default) and then issue the two commands above. I can test that matchbox is indeed running on :1 by opening a Debian app like Roxterm, producing the familiar full-screen Hildon window.

:mad: :(

Any ideas?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Not a idea, but I heard and I'm quite sure that it's true, that the Hildon apps are hardwired to :0 and can not be redirected from extern :-(

Sometimes the closeness of these sources is a pity...

asys3

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Not sure about details but I think the slowness has something to do either with disabled DMA or too small packets allowed or something like that. Hopefully it is SW issue (maybe even improved/fixed in recent linux-omap).

Don't know about UK but one option is http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4838 , not sure how good the price is.

EDIT: Forget it, they are now selling different product under same SKU, it was SiS but had no DVI previously and looked different.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Yes, I discovered it when I tried to run the rss reader and display it on my laptop while the tablet screen was broken, it turns out that none of the osso- apps respect the DISPLAY variable.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

does it use the local named pipes, in which case could you do a really nasty hack and rename the files so that the external display took their place?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

It may be that this is because maemo-launcher thing used by default in Nokia applications. This speed hack shortens startup time by having already pre-initialized process which just forks and runs user code instead of going through GTK (and perhaps also X) initilalization at startup time. Same trick is used in KDE via kdeinit.

This may mean that even renaming X unix socket may not make any difference since maemo-launcher has the old one already open.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

Any way to force a restart of maemo-launcher without rebooting the tablet or causing other serious harm? Would it take down all the apps that it launched with it?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept for extrenal screen display (USB VGA)
 

I am new to the tablet world and am trying to use my tablet as a pc/laptop. I have remote desktop, a usb mouse and a usb keyboard working. I have purchased the USB to VGA adapter and tried the step in the link mentioned above for v.03 (Graham Cobbs's post #16 - http://xsisusb.garage.maemo.org/).

Can somone please help. Thanks.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept ... (USB VGA): PowerPoint export
 

Thanks, Graham, for this excellent development :).

I've been lurking around this thread for some time, and I have the USB2VGA2 adapter working nicely :D.

My interest is in making PowerPoint presentations with the N810, and I have been somewhat diverted getting qole's Easy-Debian and pipeline's DBus-Switchboard working smoothly - now achieved (with thanks to those two fine artists :)).

I have found a nice PowerPoint plug-in called PPTools ImageExport. This allows you to specify the quality and size of jpg that you want, and lets you name the images ready for sisusb-slideshow.sh (Slide1.jpg, Slide2.jpg, etc) and save them to a directory. It costs USD 30.00, but it's great to be able to produce the hi-res jpgs directly from PowerPoint :).

I've also been playing with hardware and power options, and I'll post these separately.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Proof of Concept ... (USB VGA): USB Dock
 

I've obtained one of the StarTech USBVGADOCK devices, and it's really nice :). It works well on a PC, but sisusb doesn't find it on the N810.

I'm not a USB expert. Graham - do you know how I can talk to it (on the tablet or the PC) to find out how it identifies itself? Then perhaps you could tell me if I can modify something in your stuff to see it?