[RESTARTED] Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

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Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I hate to say it, but this really just sounds like a good way to fragment the community and duplicate a lot of effort. We've already got enough fragmentation with the repository mess, what's wrong with Garage and Downloads? Wouldn't it have been better to put together some sort of syndication? :\

All in all, this seems like a poorly made and hastily considered decision that's really not going to help anybody in the end.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

There is alot of good software that doesn't have a Garage page and even more never put on maemo downloads section. This if used by people would put all the software in a easy to find place. Infact almost half the games on this site that have been ported don't have garage pages.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

But,

1) you don't need a garage page for write an entry in maemo.org/downloads.
2) the software doesn't need to be in a repository, neither have a install file.
3) you don't need to be the developer for write an entry in maemo.org/downloads.

It would be cool if people write an entry in maemo.org/downloads for each dispersed software, though the own developer doesn't do it. If it's beta, tag the software as beta.

Please developers, all maemo software in one place.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I disagree GA.

We've all seen how Canola has improved because of the involvement of the end-users. We want to encourage the same type of life cycle. Maemo.org's Download section tend to just list apps and Maemo.org members (who are top tech junkies) tend to just rate the app, and that's it.

We also want to promote the developers' apps here at itT too, plus more. What's wrong with that?

I hope you just don't shoot down an idea mainly because you haven't seen it working.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I agree with this. All Maemo apps should be in the garage. Maemo.org's and itT's software and download section should just list them.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I am not so sure about this move and the implication it can have in fragmenting software repositories.

It would be nice to see it NOT as a yet another software database, but as an aggregator for user comments/feedbacks.
For example my port (Xournal) has a page in the Downloads section, I could add a garage project (I will) to take advantage of the bugzilla section, but there is no place (in Maemo.org) where users can chat about Xournal.

Thus I am willing to add my software, but I will just link to the maemo.org's Download page.

This way I have everything I need: the software in one place (Maemo Extras and garage), a garage project (bugzilla, ...) AND a community forum to discuss the software itself (here).
I would encourage all the developers to do like this and I would like to push them all to upload their software to Maemo Extras.

Anything that would prevent that ?

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

By the way, I tried to add Xournal, but (after joining the Developers group and filled the Add form) I got : 'anidel, you do not have permission to access this page.'

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

That is what reggie was going for Anidel you don't have to upload your file here you can just link it. Unless you need somewhere to host your files then you can upload them here. Either way if its listed in our database our users can find them easy and discuss them.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Got it.
We'll see how it goes.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

As well you might, considering it was your idea to implement this. ;)

I don't disagree that Downloads isn't a particularly good place for active discussion, but creating what's basically another completely separate Downloads/Garage system just succeeds in causing a lot of problems for developers and end-users alike. Rather than working towards a one-stop-shop for everything, we've instead doubled the workload and halved the participation in each.

I'd also disagree with "top tech junkies" assessment of Downloads, a large number of people on there are nothing of the sort. Where does the official Nokia OS2008 page link (the one that's linked to from the desktop of every new tablet shipped)?

FRAGMENTATION. We've got enough of it already, we don't need more. Look at the Zaurus community for why it's a bad thing. It's more of the repository mess at a different level. Promoting applications isn't bad, but creating two completely separate places for users and developers to go to is.

I'm shooting down the idea because it's a poorly considered one that was brought about with zero community discussion and no collaboration with maemo.org.

What should've happened (and should still happen, if nobody's too set on this particular idea) is somebody should've discussed this with the guys over at maemo.org (X-Fade in particular) and set up a syndication system so that the power of both Downloads/Garage and itT could be utilized to their fullest extent. Downloads and Garage for hosting, development and a centralized location for applications, and itT for discussion and lots of fun end-user interaction.

Hopefully you'll consider rectifying this.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

About have threads for discussing software, reporting bugs, etc, IMHO is a good idea.

The problem I see is people adding software to ITT but not to maemo.org/downloads.
Maemo.org/downloads would be useless because people would go always to ITT to search software.

It would be cool and very useful a way for sync ITT Downloads and maemo.org/downloads. If people add software in ITT send it to maemo.org and if people add software in maemo.org have a thread where discussing this software in ITT.
I think maemo.org/downloads have an API or soon will have(I am not sure, probably X-Fade could comment this).

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

GA you said Reggie wasn't working on a one-stop-shop I feel he is because you can discuss your software here and end users can find it by just going to the download section. Even the stuff not lised on maemo.org or garage. To me it seems more like a one-stop-shop.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I understand what's GA worrying about, and I do worry about it too.
Developers will upload to Maemo, others to Garage, others to their own repo, other here.
This is fragmentation.
As said, the best for ITT would be what's it already is: a forum -> discussion.
As such I would remove the "upload" section and 'only' provide what's missing: a link between the application's place and the forum.

But that's what 'I' would do :)

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

You didn't understand my point. Maemo.org is (or should be, depending on perspective) the one-stop-shop. Not some random web forum. :) Trying to pull stuff away from there hurts everybody.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

well whay cant itt have say a pre meamo.org release type thing....a place to iron out the wrinkles then after a time put it on meamo with good documentation for the newer types

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

But he isn't pulling anything away from there all you have to do is upload you software there and then if you want you can post it here by either uploading it again or linking to your maemo.org download, or garage download or your personal site download.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

That's more what Garage on maemo is for.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

thus the term garage...i get that....im tryin to add other good reasons in reggies favor...but i do see the reason ga is worried about fragmentation....however ya ever hear of too many eggs one basket i know some of ya guys are thinking this guys an idjitt...but try not to look at the fragmentation issue to hard...everything fragments ...no matter what or how well put together it is

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Mhm... I'm not happy with this. I don't think it's right to have even more fragmentation and, yes, as GA said, maemo.org ist the place to go for downloads. we need a one stop shop, and it must be there, not here (for more reasons than i want to write down now).

OTOH, this is the web. everybody can try out new ideas. who knows? it could still be a success and a benefit for the community.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I would agree about not taking downloads from maemo.org if it had every download there was for the tablets, but it doesn't so it isn't a one stop shop and never will be because you can't make people upload to maemo.org who don't want to. Second you can't discuss the software there even if you go to the garage check out the forums there no one uses them. So you come here for discussion why not also have the downloads here and at maemo.org which is what reggie is doing. If you want software for your Linux, Mac, or Windows computer do you go to just one site. No there are thousands you go to.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Here's the thing, Maemo.org has always been a resource for developers and I would bet that it was created and would grow as basically what it is -- a resource for developers. It has been so much a developer site that Nokia decided to create the Tableteer site which aimed to cater to end-users.

The itTSS really aims to complement Maemo.org and enhance Tableteer. itT's strength and focus is the end-user community. The itTSS' strength is to help the whole IT community -- both the developers and end-users.

Regarding "fragmentation", at times you have to denormalize. This is one of those times. But then again, who am I to say this, as I am only the guy who runs a "random web forum."

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

neither can you make ppl list applications here if they dont want to. so even though (if we're lucky) many applications will be at both places, some of the cool stuff will be at maemo.org only, while some will be only here. That's what "fragmentation" means.

Having the possibility to diskuss apps is nice, but thats whats happening anyway and should have been possible by only adding some new forum sections without the download stuff.

But then again, there's two ways to think about it:

The Right Thing (tm) certainly is to try and work towards a pleasant one stop shop for the end user. This probably means to enhance and re-use existing channels, or, even better, further reduce the number of websites and repositories (instead of adding new ones).

The other approach is to try as many ways as possible (the new service at ITT being one of them) and see which one will work in the long run. There'll be "me too!"-attempts to generate traffic, and there's a risk of fragmentation to a point where nobody finds anything because it's scattered among 182 places, but there's also a chance of something brilliant evolving.

I'm very conservative in these things, so my way of thinking is #1: Do "The Right Thing". At least I know approach #2 is possible, too. I'll see what happens.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

While this may have been true in the past (I'm not sure that it, in fact, was—look at the old application wiki page), Nokia is definitely moving away from this moving forward with maemo.org becoming a much more community-oriented (not just developer) and organized centralized location for everything maemo.

Besides, Downloads and Planet are hardly developer-centric.

Then you should complement it, not duplicate it! Why wasn't this idea discussed with the community? or with maemo.org? Instead of having a discussion and arriving at something that really helps everybody, we have no discussion and end up with something that, I fear, will end up doing enough harm to offset whatever good it manages. . . .

Communities are not databases.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I don't see this as fragmenting anything since well like I said in the other post there is no one stop shop for everything and there will never be. This section will just try and make itT a place for people to discuss there problems, and help people get the software they disguessed

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

@GA: Let's see how Nokia reacts to this then. So far I'm getting positive feedback.

I suggest you relax.

Btw, Freeciv look great! It has 37 downloads already.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I'm not concerned with the Nokia reaction, I'm concerned with the effect on the community. :)

I'm plenty relaxed, thanks. :)

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Me too!

Cool! :D

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Here's my two cents...

Until recently, I was strictly an end-user of software. Then I chimed in on a discussion on crossword puzzles and ended up becoming a developer on xword. If I had been forced to set up the garage project myself, I probably wouldn't have since I'm lazy. As it is, I like the svn repository, but never utilize any of the bug/tracker facilities at the garage.

I had no real idea where to announce xword, so I initially just uploaded a .deb to the original forum discussion post. When the program was less buggy, I placed an [Announce] post in the Software area and monitored it for bug reports. As it stands, I still don't know what is the "best" procedure for announcing a software release.

I am worried about the fragmentation issue, but what I REALLY want is some clear documentation on the procedure for creating/distributing/announcing software. Can we come to a consensus on that? Even if we do have several correct "paths" (e.g. garage, maemo.org/downloads, forum, etc.), I want to be able to reference a document and point others to it as well.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Well when you upload software to the download section here now it makes a new thread for you about your software. That is one place you can do it.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Well, while I'm more in the GA camp here, first let me point out a practical issue that needs resolution:
I went to the Xournal 0.4.2.1 thread (just exploring the new section and how it works), and when I get through to the big download button, the install file is served with type text/html. Opera, naturally, wants to save it as xournal.htm; this is not so good...

Then, second, to jump into the flamewar: ;)
I think fragmentation is bad. I haven't tried downloading, but I think this lets people easily use this as a single host for their releases. If you required the project to be already uploaded somewhere, but would mirror it from there (we've all seen sites go down permanently or temporarily), then it would encourage developers to use garage, or to self-host (as many already do). It would be a bit of a hassle, but I'm sure anyone who couldn't self-host, and wouldn't do garage, could find some sort of temporary hosting to get the file up, so you wouldn't really lock out people, you'd just make correct habits easier than incorrect ones.

And, lastly:
On this, I think the best procedure, assuming you're a single primary developer, not a team, is to:

1. Write some code, get it to a decent state where other devs can reasonably play with it.
2. Get a garage page and put it in SVN.
3. (optional) Post in the Devs forum here about the project, if you're interested in having help.
4. Work on it till it's alpha quality, and release alpha debs in garage.
   • Post debs in the itT Download section.
5. Work till it's beta quality (and release).
   • Get it in maemo.org extras-devel repo
   • Post .install on itT Download
   • Make a maemo.org downloads entry
6. Finally, production releases are posted around as before, but in maemo.org extras repo.

That's my understanding of how it ought to work; but I'm no pro. And yes, it's a lot of work, and I can't really blame anyone for shying away and skipping steps. But that's what you should do, I think...

If everyone discusses this and comes to a consensus, it can be wikified here. I'll be shocked. ;)

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

That's how I imagine it should work too. itTSS should act as an alternative on listing and helping end-users find apps that are still in beta but will eventually be in the garage as they are improved.

Thanks!

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

My sugggestion as more of an end-user is that itTSS should only accept .install links. I see ITT as being the most consumer-friendly place in the IT community, and as the tablets move more into the 'consumer' realm, it should, as well.

This is probably nit-picky, and that's fine, but it's been expressed before that .deb files mess things up by removing the functions of the App Manager for providing and now alerting users to updates of their apps.

Clearly I'm not familiar with the work involved in creating an .install for a repo from a .deb, but I think the community in general needs to work on that quite a bit.

Am I out of scope here?

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

The Garage is great, but it isn't for everyone. It's a bit like a Sourceforge, for project management among multiple developers, and developers should be allowed to use whichever project management mechanism they want, be it the Garage or whatever. If you don't have a project management mechanism, the Garage fits the bill. But, in the end, the Garage is for developers and power-users - it shouldn't be a website for general end-users.

The Maemo Downloads website, however, is targeted explicitly for end-users. When your Garage-hosted (or wherever-hosted) project to a end-user-consumable state, you should be advertising it on Maemo Downloads. The interface may not be great, and it may not be very fast all the time, but it is intended to be the one-stop shop for downloading end-user Maemo software. There is no reason to avoid advertising your end-user-ready Maemo software on Maemo Downloads, unless you hate Maemo.

Discussion forums are great, and perhaps Maemo Downloads could support a better forum mechanism, but I have to agree with GeneralAntilles about the fragmentation - creating yet another Maemo software website is just going to confuse people. Just because "not everyone puts their packages on Maemo Downloads" doesn't mean we should create yet another website - after all, not everyone is going to put their packages on ITT's website, either.

No disrespect intended (I love ITT), but as a developer, ITTSS makes my job more difficult, because if I want to reach the largest audience, I now have to remember to manage my releases on yet another website.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

If it's an "alternative" listing, then why isn't it just an aggregator/syndicator, as GeneralAntilles suggested?

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I just have a question for everyone if you have a Windows computer do you only go to Windows.com to download software or would you go to other sites to get it like download.com or rapidshare.com or a hundred others. Having downloads on several sites is the way of the world. (BTW if you don't use Windows imagine the same thing with Linux or Mac)

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Because if it was just an aggregator/syndicator it would have only what is one maemo.org not the other good software out there.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

That's not quite the same thing when it comes to Open Source Software. Most people don't go to download.com to download software. They search the web for it and they find the website of the company that created the software.

Open Source Software, on the other hand, is typically written by single developers (or small groups of loosely-connected developers), not by a company. They typically don't have the money to pay for and support a website to host their software. Instead, they rely on services like the Garage to host their open source software for them.

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

How is ITTSS going to solve that problem, though? If there is "good software out there" that is not being registered on Maemo Downloads, then why would it be registered on ITTSS? If it's an awareness thing (i.e. ITT is more popular than maemo.org), then developers just need to be more aware of Maemo Downloads. (If you're a Maemo developer, how are you not aware of maemo.org?)

Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

ok but there are more then one website for windows open source software same with linux