Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Step to step guide for the newbie: how to setup a linux box, dual boot, with your exiting OS, likely window PC.
_______________________________________________
After playing with my tablet for awhile, and seeing so many linux guru posts, that with a linux box, you can do this or you can do that with your tablet, I just wish I have a linux box. On top of this, I would also like to try things out on my PC after getting a taste of linux from the tablet.

I found out:
1) you do not have to buy a linux box. It is FREE!
2) you do not have to kill your PC, you can have dual boot, just like the dual boot you have been doing with your tablet, ie., a bootup menu allows one to choose to boot to linux or to the other OS, likely win PC.
3) OMG, you do not have to be a linux guru either!

Goal: linux box dual boot with winPC.

DISCLAIMER: Follow this instructions AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Stuff you need: A window PC running whatever window OS with preferably 10+ G empty space. Mine is window XP Home. A DVD burner.

1) dl kubuntu-8.04.1-desktop-i386.iso, http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu/download

2) burn this into a DVD using image burn, also known as iso burn. Most new PC comes with DVD burning software. I use Roxio basic. CD does not work good. This is called a liveCD (we are using a DVD)

3) boot up your winPC with this DVD. You will see a Kubuntu menu, accept english, F6, boot option, pick the 2nd choice, "...casper ", enter, enter, enter, now you are at 4 of 6, the partition page. You should see choice one as a rectangle with yellow (window) and white (Linux). I chose the 1st one, which partition my 60G HD into 30G linux and 30G winPC. If you do not see this, you are in the wrong place, go back to initial boot menu and choose any other option till you see this partition option. And continue the partition then installation and that's all. Whole thing takes an hour.

Now you have a box with a bootmenu, allows you to choose linux or your original OS.

Watch out. If you do not understand step 3), the partition step, you MAY end up with a brand new PC. I back up my PC when I did it the 1st time and thank god, I did wipe out my PC. I succeed the 2nd time. So, please back up, playing with editing partition without backup is like playing with russian roulet. During installation, you are asked about user and password. make sure you jog it down, that is how one gets root.

First thing to do after install kubuntu box,

1) update, that would bring your kubuntu update.
2) kconsole
sudo su (enter your password to gainroot)
apt-get install synaptic
3) kconsole>utilities>synaptic manager> mark and install
emelfm2,mplayer,kmplayer,leafpad.........whatever progs you want, and install. reboot after done installing. Now you have a BIG tablet for you to play with. WOW!

I repeat, there is a high chance that you may wipe out your PC if you are sloppy, does not follow instructions well, or simply dont understand. Even you are good, please backup PC before attempt. You have been warned

(Frank posted behind is way TOO FAST :) , I am not done yet)

For those who really do not want to fool around with partitions, other options,
1) use the liveCD, performance is next to horrible, space is also a problem.
2) install kubuntu inside window, performance is NOT that bad, and also allow dual boot. I did not try this one.

BTW, that sad face icon in the title is NOT supposed to be there, but there is NO way to get rid of it. This thread is NOT about anything that is sad. Can somebody teach me how to get rid of that icon?

enjoy,
bun

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Hi,

Another option is to use the free vmware player and run the Linux OS inside of a virtual machine. This is what I use for tablet development. The advantage is that you don't have to reboot to switch the OS and you don't have to try to repartition.

Frank

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Yeah.. Virtual Machine is usually better idea. I am surprised that the Kubuntu Installer was able to successfully resize a ntfs partition without erasing it.. cool.

Also your command is:

apt-get install synaptic

Kubuntu is good.. it's just Ubuntu with KDE. It will look similar to Penguinbait's KDE. For those infactuated with XFCE - there is an Xubuntu distro. Don't think anyone has made a Gnome for the Tablet for you guys to test yet.. probably would run in debian chroot but I bet that's slow.

Another option is to just start Kubuntu directly from the CD and play with a full live OS without even touching your HDD (no risk to your winblows box).. that allows people to "try before they buy" so to speak (not literally buy, obviously). This way you can also try both Ubuntu and Kubuntu to see which Window Manager you like..

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Couldn't you also use cygwin? I've never used Cygwin, but from what I understand it should save you all the rebooting, iso burning, partitioning.... Provided that you have the source to the app you want to use (example: source code for the flasher app...)

--Jon

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

How is the performance when use inside window? On a dual boot box, the kubuntu is eye blinking in most instance. Without repartition and without reboot is a BIG advantage, though.

bun

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

cygwin is not for the timid IMHO.

I wouldn't recommend cygwin to a "newbie" in linux.. cygwin is mostly good for cross-compilation and software stuff for developers.. not really for running an entire linux Distro I don't think.


Bunanson: Depends on the hardware. A fast computer will run 1 virtual just fine.. I do the exact reverse.. I only use Linux at my house.. 2 Debian, 1 Gentoo servers; 3 Ubuntu workstations, various other flavors of linux as toy boxes.. and One, measley little Windows Box that runs in a Virtual Machine on an Ubuntu Box (2ghz Centrino, 2gb memory).. runs just Fine.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

I did exactly like that and was NOT impressed. Running out of a CD is very very slow. When people say it is slow, I do not understand, but when you try it, OMG, it is almost next to useless. Something like running a win95 on a 286. And another thing, how much space you can have to try out progs? I agree, though, running out of a liveCD is the most simple way you can try linux, bear in mind about performance, though.

IMHO, running either VM or a dual boot if you are serious about long term use. I did a dual boot install, and have my linux box up and running in less than 1 hr on my 2nd try, that did not include that I wiped out my winPC, restored, angry, crying, tearful for half a day :( . Thank god, I back up, so, it just work, nothing really lost.

bun

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

True but the more the merrier :D
When we are at it try to run win2000 inside XP-pro with VirtualWin with M virtualPC; ah! maybe the whole thing in a Mac running OSX which also hosts Kunbutu too. And maybe we also have our Nokia running rdesktop to the Mac.
Do I miss something?

http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/
http://arcanecode.wordpress.com/2008...rtual-pc-2007/

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

I forgot to mention our Nokia also runs emulations for Mac, DOS, and Windows too. We also have KDE!

:eek:

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Umm, not quite aware of Windows yet...............win3.1 or Vista ;)

bun

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Heh. We just have WUBI for that. Forget all the above, go to Wubi-Installer.Org, and follow the instructions.

Note: NOT for newbies!
To get Diablo SDK on your Windows computer try this:
1) http://www.virtualbox.org
2) http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/1224
3) http://repository.maemo.org/stable/diablo/INSTALL.txt
Note: NOT for newbies!

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

I would also say repartitioning your computer and installing Linux alongside an existing Windows partition is not something to be done lightly. There is a great risk of totally losing all data on your PC if you don't actually understand what's going on. Shrinking and resizing partitions is serious voodoo, especially with freeware Linux tools and NTFS.

I've been using and installing Linux machines since the dark, musty days of Slackware 2 and sometimes I still do it wrong by accident.

VMWare, however is amazing. As is Virtual PC, or VirtualBox. I have a Macbook which quite happily runs XP in a virtual machine with no noticeable slowdown. I also have a Pentium 4 PC which runs Virtual PC with XP inside that.

Both of these virtual computers run MS SQL Server 2005 and Visual Studio 2005 Professional and can easily cope with me running an application and debugging it.

The most important thing is to have enough RAM. My machines have 2 gig each, with 1 gig being given to the virtual machine. I did run VMWare on my Mac with only 1gig of ram and it was awful.

But RAM is cheap :)

Now the correct way would be to show people how to install Linux completely, then run Windows in a virtual machine ;)

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Had dedicated Linux boxes for years, they had to go for space (and noise!) reasons. Then used VMWare for a few years. Got fed up switching between VMWare window and other windows. Earlier this year I installed AndLinux (based on coLinux). Recently installed scratchbox and maemo sdk. IMHO best set-up second only to dumping windows altogether (on the near horizon).

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Argh, virtual machines are great... except simple fact: they're S-L-O-W...
Even with vmtools installed, vmware is still provides a decent performance penalty vs real hardware machine.If you have powerful 16-CPU server this may be not a big deal but on usual desktop you may not like obtained performance too much.

As for me, it looks like this:
- If you're going to just see "what is this stuff?" and then throw it away, vmware is great since no reboots needed.
- If you're going to live with <something> for a while and take some real use of it, IMHO it is better to install to a real HDD on a real machine. To be honest, that's how I migrated from XP to Kubuntu (yep, XP is at the end of its life and I dislike Vista, so Kubuntu was just exactly what I needed, he-he). At one day I'm found that on my dual-boot system Kubuntu uptime is just month or so and hence it looks like I do not need any Windows at all :)))

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

You make a fair point about the performance hit of using a virtual machine. However, my Core2Duo 2GHz Macbook runs a virtual XP (with Visual Studio and SQL Server, don't forget) perfectly well, and is at least as fast as my 3GHz Pentium 4 HT PC running XP natively.

Virtual machines are great if you have one piece of software you need to run. If you're going to end up switching OSs then eventually you will want to install it "properly" into its own partition.

Of course, if you have a Mac with BootCamp and VMWare Fusion you can boot the XP partition either as a virtual machine (seamlessly, rather than trapped in a window) or as a proper OS instance from a boot menu. So you get the advantage of both.

I predict it won't be too long before we run large applications in their own virtual machines. Rather than installing all the Windows dev stuff into your PC you'll run a virtual machine. Same with games and office applications. A Core Quad processor isn't going to break a sweat doing this type of thing, and it seems technology is going towards multi-core rather than increased CPU speed now.

Oh yeah, you want to see network-based virtualisation too, that's impressive. Virtual servers can be moved from one computer to another - while still running.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Yes, but a Live CD is also slower than native.

If you want to try out Linux just use Wubi and you have Ubuntu installed (and easily uninstalled) in no time on the Windows NTFS partition in c:\ubuntu. Reboot, and boom you're on Linux. All ~native speed (maybe some overhead from NTFS :P). You can even access this installation via VirtualBox.

If you want to try or run KDE on Windows see windows.kde.org.

If you want to do maemo porting/development try my method above. VMware Player instead of VirtualBox would also work. Or consider a method like coLinux/andLinux.

BTW, newer CPUs with AMD-V or Intel VT are able to run VMs at almost native speed (90-100% sometimes even more than 100%). Provided your VM supports these hardware extensions there is almost no overhead then.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

It's extremely easy to run Linux from a usb drive. I have sidux running from an 8 gig drive on my dell latitude and I use it far more often than I do Windows. Sidux had an option to install from a usb drive, so I didn't have to do much more than check the "install to usb drive" box. I'm also running sidux from my desktop, but I don't have Windows here.

Sidux has a reputation of being a very cutting edge and challenging version of Linux, but in my experience it is quite easy. Another distro that works great with my laptop wireless is Puppy Linux (which runs great for me on a 2-gig usb drive). Wireless is one of the sticking points with Linux, in my experience -- sometimes the proprietary wireless cards are difficult to get going, but not very, in Puppy Linux and Sidux, and it's getting easier everywhere.

Linux is way faster than Windows. The main reason I was ever running Windows was because Windows has much better text-to-speech than Linux, but now that my Treo runs Audible books for me, I have less reason to run Windows than ever.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

One more comment, on running Linux from a CD: it's not necessarily slow. Slackware-based distributions such as Wolvix have an option to run the whole operating system from memory after booting from a CD. They are incredibly fast. Puppy Linux is incredibly fast.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Again.. the intent of this post appears to aimed at a non-sys admin type user.. IE: newbie. A timid, "I don't want to lose my life's work", "if I touch this will it break?", user.

The best way to sell these people is offering them solutions where the risk of hurting their precious dataz is minimal - this is with a Virtual Machine of some sort.

WubI is fine, Bootable CD is also fine (but slow) - (geneven; how much software is available on those? The reason Knoppix/Kubuntu/etc run off the cd is they are compressed on the fly allowing for more software, in a smaller footprint.)

Piku - If you notice I wasn't the one that suggested anyone re-partition their Hard Drives; that was in the OP.. I actually made the comment that I was surprised the Kubuntu installer has made it to the point where they are comfortable enough with the (experimental) ntfs support in Linux to actually allow resizing of an ntfs drive.

Now I haven't looked into cygwin in quite some time.. but when I did - it was a downright pain; had to compile everything I wanted to run via source, it was slow (then), and difficult... If I want to convert a newbie; i'm not going to give them Slackware, Arch or Gentoo on a command line and say "OK - Go."

You want them to have an interface that they are somewhat familiar with - Best options are XFCE (my favorite), KDE, and Gnome. IceWM is ok, but configuration is manual; Window Maker is too much a change.. the *box's are also too difficult for 'casual' users.

I still say that unless you've decided to upgrade your PC to a better OS - use a Virtual Machine or one of the other suggestion that do not require re-formatting (WUBI)... Once you realize what you are missing and feel the awesomeness that is linux and want it to run at full speed.. THEN you can attempt the OP.. and the OP stressed it several times; so has numerous people throughout... back up your data and -expect- to lose your windows.. You may not; but that would be more the exception, not the rule.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

The Ubuntu 8.04 install CD has Wubi built in. No need to download anything extra; just boot Windows and insert the CD.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Well, some liveCDs let you throw tons of stuff in a ramdisk, so while bootup time rivals Vista, they're quite snappy in operation. They'd be my recommendation for this sort of thing. Although with CDs being decent speed, but high latency, I'd recommend installing to a USB drive if you plan to use it much, and not bothering to load to ram.

I've never mucked with wubi; to me it looks like a train-wreck waiting to happen, but any damage should be strictly to the Linux side, not Windows, so I suppose it's cool for this, too.

Heh, Mandrake (first and tied-for-worst distro I ever used) did that back around 2000, as best as I remember. Out of the three times I tried it, it only junked the NTFS once.

I use it, and I get most stuff I want without compiling; but I haven't got to flashing the tablet from it, and that would require building from source. Moreover, it's not gonna sell UNIX to anyone but developer types.

I think modern friendly distros are actually pretty good about making clear that you're ready to trash major data, and at providing alternatives, but you should definitely take that attitude unless you've got a knowledgable person in the house to check things at critical stages. ;) (Yeah, a couple times it's been my job to holler "No! No, don't!!" at people...) My advice, for desktops at least, is to toss in a blank hard drive, and install linux to it. Avoid all partition resizing issues, and it's easy for even a newb to tell whether this is the old Windows drive or the new blank drive from in the installer. Backup anyway considering the stakes, but the risk is really very low.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Benson: I agree on all points: But one thing to note is that the ramdisk you are referring too is still limited in size to the amount of memory you have (I believe.. if I'm wrong correct me) - So to boot a linux and load entire OS into memory would mean that for my computer with 2GB of memory; i'm not going to get more than 2gb worth of software to try..

Knoppix; and I think the *ubuntu types; use compression on their DVD's.. which means you get upwards of 4+GB worth of software on the DVD.. and it only uncompresses and uses the software you try; which loads into memory - and after it's initial load will run OK; until you launch 3 other applications which overwrite the first app in memory and it has to decompress again.. etc.. which is why those run extremely slow.

I have never tried the suggestions that geneven had put forth; so I don't know the software on them (course google will tell me :D) - if it has a decent range of various types of software on them then they would be fine.. but if they are just raw Linux with a basic KDE/gnome manager and no real extras then it doesn't really give the user much to play with.

As to your last suggestion; I do agree using a new HDD is a safer alternative to have a fast Linux; AND not risk windows; but I dunno the type of people you deal with on a day to day basis: But I deal with government types - I wouldn't want them anywhere near the internal of one of these machines.. let alone ask them to add a new HDD..

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Yeah, but what do you want with more than 2 GB of software? If only the liveCD could predict which 1~1.5 GB you'd want. ;)

I've used Mutagenix in the past; most any liveCD, though, lets you remaster with the packages you use. We're moving pretty far from newb-trying-stuff-out territory, of course, but that's what I was thinking when I wrote that...

That's a good point, re: my overestimation of users' abilities. Mostly I deal with family, who are decently knowledgeable about computers in general, but not about Linux/UNIX in particular, much less the particular "friendly" installer in use.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Again, I am always with the uninitiated. For the uninitiated, if you choose this route, stick in a new HD, that is a very good idea. Make sure you take out the other hard drives, as window can reassign drive letters. Depends on your hardware configuration, there is a chance that the HD 'D' you think it is, is NOT the hard drive 'D' and you end up partitioned and formatted the existing drive instead of the new drive you put in. Of course, check the content of the drive, or give the hd a name instead of relying on drive letter prevents this silly disaster. Please, DONT ASK ME HOW I LEARNED THIS ONE, the answer is way too obvious and painful :(


bun

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

One should always have off-site backups of important data, and an image of Windows pristine/vanilla is also highly recommended.

WUBI is well tested and officially part of the Ubuntu distribution. If you break your Ubuntu which was installed by WUBI you can simply use WUBI to reinstall Ubuntu as if nothing ever happened. The advantage is that this installation is easy read, point & click while still native speed. A USB drive has much more overhead, like a CD/DVD, than running the OS native from a NTFS partition.

If you're a little bit more technical inclined its easy & fast to try out _and_ use a new OS. Download the virtual appliance, load it in VMware Player or VirtualBox or any VM which can read the open standard VM images and off you go. This way one can run Linux, *BSD, Haiku, Solaris, OSX, Windows, and yes even a Linux distribution with pre-installed & pre-configured Scratchbox & appropriate tools.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

I'm asked how much software is available on the Linuxes run from a bootable CD. Actually, I was thinking more of a bootable DVD, since that's mainly what I have run. The answer is tons. How many tons? Well, Sidux is a full-fledged Debian-based distribution, so that is what, 10,000-30,000 programs? Puppy Linux and Slackware-based distros like Wolvix are a bit less. Still a lot.

Now, I suppose you are asking how many you can have access to at one time? Let me reply with a counter-question--how many programs do you use on a day-to-day basis? Maybe I use 50, at a guess. Maybe 500, at the most. Certainly even on a CD there's plenty of room for those. I'd say that the distribution with the tiniest number of programs available among those I've listed would be Puppy Linux on a CD. Maybe it has I don't know, 300 programs? How many users run 300 programs? Especially if, as specified, they are just trying out Linux to experience its wonder?

I would say that the most newbie-friendly Linux is Puppy Linux, especially if you add in the very friendly community of users that hang out, mainly at www.puppylinux.org in the forums.

Let me add another question. How much overhead as opposed to Linux running from a partition does Linux running 100% from memory? I would guess that where the Linux comes from has little effect -- once it is running from memory, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Correct?

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Correct; but CDs are slowish, but mainly take forever to spin up, so anything not loaded into RAM on boot may have up to a half-minute wait to load from CD; then it's in RAM, and is fast. That's the main disadvantage... (and effects depend greatly on the particular distro, of course.)

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Ok, so a "selling point" of something like Puppy Linux is that it runs 100% in memory so it's blazing fast even when booted from CD -- and in my experience it doesn't take that long to boot from CD. (Wolvix is another excellent distro that has running entirely from memory as a selectable feature -- with Puppy it's not selectable, it's automatic if you're booting from CD or DVD.) These distros don't have the slowness feature much-mentioned above.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Yes. I like mutagenix (slack-based), which also does that (optionally), but I don't keep track of which other ones do and don't. Still, loading everything to RAM imposes a limit on how many (and thus, which) apps are available. (Not a problem, if you're not afraid to remaster with a different package selection; you don't need more than 2-300 MB worth, but it's getting the right ones. Or if you just install extra software each time you boot. Not newb-friendly either of those ways, though.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a liveCD booster too; but each method has it's disadvantages.

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

As for subject, I'm still thinking in this way: if you want Linux box, just get it. With VMWare you will rather get something virtual and toy-like which is quite slow and has quite shitty peripherial devices set. Actually supported peripherial devices set is very limited and those devices which are implemented have dozen of bugs, issues, limitations or just hurt VM performance to the hell. For example, USB in VMWare is a way far from perfect and sometimes may behave... er... at least, strange. And why average Joe want to mess with Linux? Maybe to toggle R&D flags? Or reflash with advanced options? And all this over half-baked VMWare usb support? Compiling? It's quite slow, CPU and disk intensive and mem-hog so vmware is still poor choice here and will provide unpleasant experience. And so on. Surely it can work, but it's still a bit like a rubber women...

Imho, VMWare is a great tool to preview some system without crashing things and as a test tool for system crashing activities, etc but as a long-term desktop environment vmware machine sucks and has many nasty limitations and issues you will dislike in long term. So, IMHO, if you want to use vmware or not strongly depends on what exactly and how long you're willing to do. If you're going to take a look on system and then delete this system after 10 minutes, VMWare serves well, saving from reboots (though advanced stuff like 3D effects or sound or some peripherial stuff may not operate properly and OS install on vmware is a really s-l-o-w since no vmtools can run at this point).If you're going to live with system for a months, you will feel vmware limits at some point but re-starting from scratch is always annoying (yeah, I do not know any easy way to convert VM disk into a real OS installation so I see only option to restart from scratch if VMWare gets tight at some point).

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

:) yes, just get it... and what is easier: WUBI or a Live CD? There are some valid reasons not to use WUBU but in general they boil down to something like 'I don't want to run or suggest running Ubuntu'. Well, sorry, but *Ubuntu is a very easy to learn and user-friendly distribution with a vivid community. BTW, it is also possible to install Kubuntu or Xubuntu with WUBI.

Yes true, people who buy VMware use it for this very purpose! :rolleyes:

You've clearly never used a VM in a professional environment, or you're mixing up VMware Player with all other VMware products.

Every VM listed here using 'virtualization' or 'para-virtualization' provides native to near-native speed. If the rest of the hardware is supported it is very much like the real experience.

Yes, there are some issues with a VM, like for example disk I/O. Several solutions mitigate the problem. Like a seperate harddisk for each installation.

Running 2 OSes in paralel has some advantages too. For example, you can easily switch back and forth. When I started using Linux this wasn't possible, and back in the days when I bought a new computer it was a blessing to have a 2nd one available. One can even remotely log in on the VM. Something Vista Home edition doesn't even allow anymore since it lacks RDP server...

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

OK, but one thing you're missing. "I don't want to support [kx]?ubuntu." At least in the context of pointing friends and relatives in the right direction for an install, you're consigning yourself to providing some level of support. I've nothing against ubuntu, if you're unfortunate enough to be "human", but not being such myself, I prefer other options. This renders me unqualified to render the support they'll expect, and so I won't recommend ubuntu.


There's a whole other argument regarding the whole notion of an "easy-to-learn distribution". I'm of the opinion that you need (eventually) to learn UNIX in general, and GNU and Linux in particular. That's a constant amount of learning. Whatever other stuff you learn specific to the distribution is variable and can be minimized by reducing the number of distro-specific tools you need to learn, and by making the tools themselves easier to learn. Nothing I've said this far is too controversial, in general. But I tend to favor reducing the total learning involved, and not care that the resulting curve is pretty steep. Others, I know, are more concerned about the learning required to reach some level of capability, and so they favor increasing the total distro-specific knowledge needed, but letting it mask the users' ignorance of deeper topics, so they can be up and running easier.

They tend to accuse me of "turning newbs away", and question whether I "just want Linux to remain my ub3r1337 playground".

I tend to accuse them of "requiring needless unlearning", and question whether they "have the mental capacity of an oyster".

Which is really quite fun, but if anyone's interested, let's start a new thread. ;)

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

Huh? The issue appears you cannot say 'no' to such request? Thats an entirely different issue (perhaps rather related to your personality). I've often been asked to help people with computer related issues many years ago when I was younger, and they always gave me an amount of money or mere thanks which were laughable. Now I just mention my price, I say "you can get support <here and here>, and reply 'no' to begging and any following psychological manipulative reasoning. On the flip side of the coin, if your friend has some unique capabilities they can help you with something related to their field as well. Thats what real friends are for.

However, assuming you don't want to give free support you just tell someone: try this out, read the instructions there, and if you cannot figure it out use a search engine. Maybe your peers don't know how to use a search engine. Then they have to learn that, or stick with something which doesn't require this ability. Thats an entirely different problem, but then theres a community and good documentation. Besides, this problem also happens in non-WUBI and non-Ubuntu environments.

One problem is, there is a lack of standards on the GUI layers of UNIX. X11, Aqua, VNC and with all kind of different and incompatible toolkits like GTK and Qt. I don't think one needs to learn eventually UNIX in general. Someone who does his whole life CAD work shouldn't need UNIX. He has an (internal or external) support desk who know UNIX, and who are there for him in case of problems. Some of the underlying things UNIX does are very different from Windows whereas people grow up with the Windows ways of doing. How are you going to educate these people in a more broad sense, where they can use what is taught and apply this knowledge in a more general sense while changing the underlying architecture/platform. Herein lies the challenge of usability.

Finally, all the different Linux distributions are very cloudy and odd to new-comers. Lets just stick with a few user-friendly ones, and integrate several with each other...

Some people prefer to keep new people away from Linux. I don't see these people as Linux users, I see them rather as e.g. GNOME or KDE users. The user interacts with the DE far more than the kernel. What I care about, is that they have a happy experience without bugging me. I think Ubuntu or Kubuntu (or say, Linuxmint) are good options for that goal.

Therefore my preference & suggestion:
1) WUBI
2/3) LiveCD or Virtual Appliance

Re: Want a linux box to talk with NIT but dont want to buy one: USE YOUR WIN PC
 

That's again depends on what is your goals.

"Real" OS install via Live CD needs separate partition(s) and you have to be careful when partitioning being applied and should have some knowledge of what you're going to do. If you have unused space on HDD (I mean unpartitioned space!) or second unused HDD and you're familiar with what partition is, it is a way to go. You will then have "real" OS install without any nasty limitations (the only hint is not make "/" partition too small).

With WUBI you can give it a try in simplified way. If I'm remembering well (warning: I can be WRONG here!), WUBI does approximately the following: creates big file on NTFS volume which will then contain disk image of system. And then it writes OS into that file as if it was a real disk partition. Yeah, Linux is quite universal and can treat files as disk devices and even can boot from such "disk device" with small tricks. So, you don't need change partition layout at all - system will parse NTFS to find it's "disk" file and continue booting from that "disk". The only known drawback of such behavior is that its a bit slower when it comes to heavy disk I/O. At first, NTFS driver needs to parse NTFS structures to represent file as linear space and then driver of chosen filesystem (for example ext2) needs to parse filesystem of such "disk-in-file". And surely double-fragmentation may happen when at first big file which is "disk" fragmented on a carrier FS and then, filesystem of such "disk" may have fragmentation on it's own. However, for many tasks it's not a big deal. Btw, this technique somewhat resembles vmware virtual disks :) but in contrast the only (and often small) penalty is a bit slower disk I\O while everything else works just as usually.

P.S.: why I'm sticked to Kubuntu? Because I'm not started my life with ROM bios built in to my head. So I have by default zero knowledge how certain OS works. Then when I'd installed OS and it works, I can start exploring it, learning it and reading documentation in it. If I see OS for first time what the h*ll I know what the "packages" is? And how do I know which ones I need and how to configure them manually? Don't you think I should have working OS to do RTFMing? So, to solve chicken and egg problem OS at first should work and then I can learn how it does that. Otherwise I need to have another OS just to learn this one (and why I should bother myself with another OS then?). And definitely, RTFMing on a text-mode console on LCD surely can broke eyes. So to be a really usable system IMHO should at least be able to start GUI and be configurable from it at least to allow basic operations. Then I'm fine and may learn how it works and have fun with advanced tricks after RTFMing. The only alternative option is to write (or at least construct from existing components) OS from scratch. This slow, painful operation which is not seems to be needed if you're not going to become your own distro maintainer or even a new OS author :).And well I see no reasons why I can't learn how Linux works, actually I got some skills, etc and Ubuntu inside still just Debian, quite good and powerful OS. With Ubuntu I can also learn how Linux works WITHOUT interrupting all my other tasks requiring PC use. So this is a bit like with cars. First drivers of ancient ages surely were able to assemble their cars from scratch on their own just since there was no any other options anyway. And they should be able to build engine and so on. However now, if you want to get from A to B you do not have to assemble your own car from scratch. You can drive a ready car (and even you can drive like a pro). You can also fix and repair or mod, tune and customize your car if you wish and have right skills. However this is not strictly required. To get from A to B you can just drive a car or you can even use a bus for example (Windows way - requires nothing except pay for a trip and it is up to bus driver to decide where to go and you can't change his decisions). Same with OSes. Dealing with LFS and similar stuff is like being ancient driver who assembles his car from bare metal. Surely he has to know how engine works to achieve this. Slackware and Gentoo and similar half-baked stuff are somewhere between this and hardcore tuning and modding - you're maybe using ready engine and some parts from existing cars but reworking 'em all hardly and tweaking to the hell, etc. However just to drive car or for SOME tuning and tweaking such things like building own engine from scratch surely awful overkill. If you're not going to manufacture own cars, why you need to know ALL details about your car then? Same with OSes. I may be interested in learning SOME parts of *nix deeply. But I have no plans to write own *nix-like OS from scratch. Hence I do not care if some slackware or LFS or Gentoo guys will mumble something about Ubuntu. Someone still can built his car from bare metal or via parts assembling but in 2008 year this is rather for fun than for a real-world use. Same with Linux distros, IMHO.