Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Hi,

I would like to know why my $100 car navigation is Sirf III
and I get fix fast and gps in N810 , iPhone is still aGPS
as no-aGPS is slow ?
Why not to put $10 Sirf III chip into iPhone, N810
and have fast fix and strong signal ?

I have got Motorola A1000 3 years ago and itr featured AGPS.
Fix very slow as showed no interest to have my A1000 to connect via gprs to get gps fix faster at some extra cost.

It was 3 years ago.
What makes Nokia, Apple to still offer old AGPS not Sirf III GPS solution ?
Sirf III fast fix, strong signal GPS chip is $10 only
and no need to pay any charge to telecom operator to get a fix.

New 3G iPhone was already marketed as full GPS cell phone/PDA
and failed.
Skyhook (no GPS navigation is still in operation).
Fix based on triangulation algorithm, not reading satelite gps data.

What is a problem to put $10 Sirf III chip into N810, iPhone 3G ?
I was all for new iPhone but don't want old AGPS solution.

Darius

probably price, size, battery life and general avaibility

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

You're mixing up a couple of things, hopefully accidentally. AGPS is not a chipset like Sirf, it's a way to assist the selected chipset with cell signals. Many SIRF based solutions also use AGPS additionally to improve performance. iPhone is using the Broadcom chip and AGPS.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4774...ps-partnership

Or:
http://artoftheiphone.com/2008/06/10...-assisted-gps/
"The main advantage of Assisted GPS (AGPS) for the iPhone is that it will allow the iPhone’s GPS to operate in weaker signal conditions and determine positioning quicker than most standalone GPS receivers. AGPS also helps save battery power by handing off some computational duties to an assistance server and by allowing iPhone users to turn GPS off and on with less inconvenience."

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

As to why AGPS is needed in mobile devices whilst not really in cars,

cars are not generally driven indoors.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I don't buy such explanation.
There is a number of fast fix, strong signal gps enabled PDA, cell phones, already on a market.
AGPS means exactly what it means.
No intelligent Sirf III or better fast fix, strong signal chip installed
so assistance required.

To get a fix on my Motorola A1000 AGPS in non-assisted mode
it took sometimes one hour or more.
Assistance server like Skyhook for iPhone is database of geocoded cellular base stations, wifi spots, basing computions on a triangulation algorithm (signal level received).

As I can use my $100 full gps car navigation on the go to get fix in
15-20 sec I still see no reason to implement old solution like agps
into new product.

Just enter into Google search : cell phone + Sirf III
to see, AGPS has gone, as an alternative solution in times, Sirf III chip was not available.

Darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

No, Ragnar is correct. The problem with the GPS in the N810 has nothing whatsoever to do with AGPS or no AGPS. The problem is simply that as a GPS receiver the TI chipset in the N810 is not as good as e.g. Sirf star III or the MTK (sp?) chipsets.

Assisted GPS is just a way of feeding pre-loaded and pre-received data to the GPS, to save time (time that would otherwise be spent waiting for initial data from satellites) and, less important, some power (for using the data to calculate some stuff). AGPS can be useful with any GPS, including the fast, mega-multi-channel ones.

As for 15-20 seconds lock time: You can't guarantee a lock time that fast if you start from cold conditions. With AGPS and a chipset like Sirf III you could get 1 sec lock time at all times, for example.

Again, the problem with the N810 GPS is that the chipset isn't that good. AGPS makes it less bad. However, the TI chipset probably uses less battery than a Sirf Star III would (not that the latter one is bad in that respect though).

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Bet you can't if you move it a long distance or leave it switched off for 6 weeks or so. Obviously, unless you have a built-in phone or wifi network in your car, that device will not often have access to the assitance data it would need to make it faster.

AGPS should really produce ~1s fixes, we are just blessed by a crappy chipset in our N810s ;)

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

i fully agree with the explanation that TA provided above. I just came back from vacation on the big island of hawaii (very cool and very big island) my wife and i got lost in the middle of the island (dont ask how - it just happened- and whatever you do dont believe my wife when she says it was my fault) but i digress- i remember i had my n810 in my cargo shorts- fired it up and w/i a minute had a route back to our rented condo- (i was using the paid for wayfinder app)- of course i had previously received a fix when i got to the condo so the aGPS knew where i was-

my wife*now* approves of my toy....

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Warning, offtopic:

In the middle of the island there is a valley between two volcanoes. AFAIK, there is only one major road there... (or was ~10 years ago when I was there...) How did you get lost in there? :rolleyes:

Did you try driving on the top of the Mauna Kea. They said only 4x4 should go there but we drove there with a rental Sunfire... Close to the top the air was so thin that with gas floored it barely made it there... We didn't spent much time there since we didn't want to get mountainsick (terrible headache...). The scenery was strange.. like moon surface?

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

way offtopic
bbut my wife's version of events hasnus nin a ford conv mustang in hilo (east side of island) we wered staying near kona on west side and i thight we were on way to active lava flow also on east side when (as wife puts it- i screwed up) we ended up on saddleback road (the road which you spoke of) but i did not know where we were the n810 got us home

my photos @ flickr (same name as here) do not do the island justice

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I know how much you love to argue, but I would recommend listening to ragnar. He know what he's saying.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I agree with the arguments and benefits of A-GPS, but my standalone bluetooth sirf-III GPS gets a lock in 20-30 seconds, whilst driving. Quite often it goes months without being used, and when I do I just turn it on and throw it on the dashboard. And I hardly ever charge it.

Nokia should keep the A-GPS, but scrap the P.o.S. GPS chipset they use and put a semi-decent one in the N900 (or whatever)

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Completely wrong.
Smart solution is Sirf III chip + network assistance.
Not smart solution is not Sirf III chip + network assistance.

I was really surprised to hear from Skyhook manager that a new 3G iPhone would feature network powered gps as a previous model.
So my interest in new 3G iPhone vanished immediately.

Today new new 3G iPhone model is announced due to October 2008.

So Texrat, saying has no value to us.
What counts is state-of-the-art Sirf III chip based navigation as
a standard in 2008.
I don't buy semi-solutions, low quality by-products in GPS navigation.

Just published new semantic magazines - TomTom, Navteq, Samsung, Asus (previously 3D GPS navigation) to let you see and compare
state-of-the-art solutions in gps business.

What is a nighmare for customers is to buy old solutions and have to
convince friends over and over again, that the older is better.

Yesterday, late in night , lurked Asusworld Magazine once again
for hot Eee PC with 7" LCD screen and oversized LCD cover.
On all 10 pictures, LCD screen was set from backside, not to let
customers to see and discover 7" LCD screen is not half in size of
the Eee PC .
What a shame to offer such assisted LCD (ALCD) a real-nightmare.

The same feelings come with any assisted- solution, semi-real-quality.
Pls, never ask me to buy any pseudo-quality assisted solution when
I have already got 5 full GPS $100 car navigation devices and new Sirf III come well under $100 price limit.

So I really don't love to .... buy semi-half-developed, half-quality solutions and gizmos as it makes me foul to use such semi-developed solution.
For the same reason I don't advise you to swap your new LCD for mono solution.

Darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I don't know what you're talking about LCDs, but once AGPS based on Wi-Fi/cellular networks works absolutely fine for me. Fast fix, uses standard radio antennas, and adds no physical size.

The time to first fix is what sells me on VZNavigator for $10 over an N810. It can get a GPS fix, traffic, and maps in just a few seconds. Just because the iPhone 3G doesn't have real turn-by-turn directions doesn't mean that it can't eventually (as shown by TomTom assuming it's not vaporware).

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Darius, this is what you said in your first post:

This is the reply you got in the second post:

I think that is where the thread should have finished really as those are almost certainly the answer. Perhaps not what we want to hear, but true nonetheless.

I quite agree.

I'd like to see your comparison, do you have a link for it please?

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

(cut for clarity)
...
you said :
"
I think that is where the thread should have finished
"
It's not a good idea.

you said
"
This is the reply you got in the second post:

Quote:
probably price, size, battery life and general avaibility
"

I don't buy your probability.
I need exact answer to my exact questions.

Why aGPS in N810, 3G iPhone ?
Why not Sirf III in N810, 3G iPhone ?

I am asking just of curosity as a developer of LBS solutions (Navteq).
I have offered gps solutions for iPhone/Apple (Skyhook)
better, faster, more efficient algorithms for AGPS .

Triangulation algorithm based gps navigation is as old as cell phone.
I need exact grounds staying behing making such wrong solutions
in hot products.

I don't blame Nokia, don't blame Apple,
just need to know , what's wrong.

"
Quote:
probably price, size, battery life and general avaibility
"

price is not an issue - Sirf III chip $10 a piece (wholesale price much lower)

size is not an issue - what is a size of aGPS chip in N810, iPhone ?
have you done size comparison ?

battery life is not an issue - you can still offer 2 models , one with full GPS and one aGPSed.

general availability - ?????? what do you mean ?

just visit GPS semantic www pages at
http://www.tinyurl.com/iDarius

to see , there was no problem to implement full Sirf III chip based navigation into tens (mayby hundreds) models of PDAs, cell phones,
already on a market.

Think twice.
aGPS was offered for non-gps enabled iPhone by Skyhook
as add-on, not mainstream gps solution.
The idea was great and it worked as it worked.

Today Apple released gps enabled iPhone and still not full GPS (Sirf III).

None of the above listed issues by you is valid.
Just visit Sirf III forum and board for smart gps solutions.

To me aGPS is still 3-wheel + 1 leg solution for car industry.

So please don't it personally.
As a developer I just need to know real grounds staying behind not
general probability comments , like yours.

And pls don't take it personally.
I just need and must to know
as my business strategy in LBS is exactly based on a exact and full
explanation of this issue.

I don't buy - improved GPS threads.
Sirf III GPS doesn't need any improvement.
It just works fine and is very cheap.


Darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

You are not going to get exact answers regarding Nokia HW design choices on a community forum. The answer was given to you as far as people here know and especially can talk in public.

I am pretty sure though that the decision was not made to generate traffic on ITT and Maemo Bugzilla but rather there are some rational (from Nokia POV) reasons behind the decision. Who knows, maybe they had a hundred thousand TI GPS chips lying around and coin toss sent them N810 way.

Then you should take it up with Nokia. If your business case is valid I'm sure they are willing to listen to you and provide the necessary information. Community forum is just not the place for it even though there are several Nokia employees here. I think they are on pretty tight leash though :D

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

What I said is you should take a break from your militant contrarian attitude once in a great while and listen to others instead of kneejerking into argument (typically based on your misunderstanding). Ragnar knows what he's talking about. You appear not to so much.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

And it's not "AGPS vs. Sirf Star III". It's "TI chipset vs. <insert any other chipset here>". AGPS can (and should, if possible) be used with _any_ chipset.

The sentence makes no sense. AGPS is not 'old solution'. It's not even a crutch. The way the GPS system works there is _no way_ to get instant lock (particularly from cold start) without using assisted GPS. It's _always_ useful to have AGPS, or any system that does the same (=>pre-loading data that one would otherwise have to wait for).

$10 is in this context an enormous amount of money. Device producers are always trying to shave off a cent here, a cent there, if they can, because it all adds up to the bottom line. In any case, nobody in this thread will know the authoritative answer to the choices, there's just a good guess that the cost, plus the power (battery) requirements are both lower for the TI chipset. But we're not Nokia.

It's probably not much use to keep replying though.. so I won't bother after this one.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

No more problems ?

aot said:

"
Who knows, maybe they had a hundred thousand TI GPS chips lying around and coin toss sent them N810 way.
"

mayby.
and what about AGPS in new 3G iPhone ?
both supplied by TI ?

To Texrat:
Stop poetry (typically, misunderstanding, appear ).

and just give clear answer if you can.
If you don't know answers just give up and stop taking it personally.

I just need to (must) know exact answers as a matter of business strategy.

One full clear answer by a knowing man, that's all what I need.

Sirf III gps chip works in so many cell phones, PDAs, car navigations world-wide, so there must be something very special in not selecting
Sirf III for N810 and iPhone (mayby market share competition ???)

I don't say AGPS is not ok under special conditions,
so why not assisted-Sirf III GPS .

If you can't disclose such info into public, just email me.

(3-wheel + 1-leg vs. 4-wheel vs. 4-wheel + 1-leg car solution)

But personally I don't have anything against 3-wheel cars.

thanks
darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

"

No more poetry pls.
You don't have to write or reply .

So what works as your explanation for non-Sirf III gps navigation in
iPhone, N810 is exactly contrary and in oposition to business strategy by manufacturers of $100 full Sirf III car navigation devices.
And I can assure you, the same units were offered on a market only 1 year ago at $200.
So I can expect to buy the alike units at $50 in 2009 or 2010 , still Sirf III chip insided.

darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I'm interested in that, do you have any papers published?

No, though you obviously have, what are the relative sizes of the Ti 5300 (iirc) chipset vs any one of the Sirf Star III chipsets (even one of the ones which supports AGPS)?

By the same token, you have presumably done research on the price and power consumption of the Ti chipset vs one of the Sirf Star III chipsets. I'm certainly interested to see this data.

We've obviously got mixed up between what Skyhook call AGPS (presumably done from a db of cell towers or wifi access points?) and what most people accept is AGPS - namely you need a GPS chipset, one which can at least accept almanac/ephemeris data from an outside source.

The Sirf Star III is not the only GPS out three, it may not be the one you'd like, but as long as it has a working GPS chipset, your statement is misleading.

As I said above, please show us your comparitive studies. I'm certainly very interested in the economics of chipset choice and in the power budget choices.

I'd have thought AGPS would be one of the last choices for the car industry - cars are not inside very often (at least not while trying to navigate) and will probably have troubles obtaining assistance data anyway. Mobile phone/portable networked devices are more the AGPS target - they are used in poor signal areas and have network connections through which to download the assistance data.

I looked here and can't find any comparison of the various chipsets, could you give a specific URL please?

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I do like the SiRFstarIII on my Garmin Nuvi but, isn't SiRF having problems now with Broadcom due to patent infringement, specifically with their SiRFstarIII chip?

ETA: Ok, here's the article -- http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4864666&EDATE=

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

No, you don't, and you won't get them anyway... as a matter of Nokia's business.

If any Nokia employee emails you proprietary info I will personally see to it they don't get the opportunity again.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I am free to call or email Nokia manager
asking my question under Consumers Protection Act.
So your participation is not necessary.

Any more problems ?

(pls don't reply, no more poetry)

darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

No consumer protection would have any bearing whatsoever on your request.

I suggest you find another forum to troll.

Good luck with those windmills, Don Quixote.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

No don't go, I still want to see that chipset comparison, costings and power budget comparisons and new AGPS theory!

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Asked you to not-reply.
Can't give right answer so stop your imaginations.
Nobody interested.

There is a number of smart knowing guys at this place,
still interested in the getting right and exact answer
why no more Sirf III in N810, new 3G iPhone.

You can troll this tread , trying to close it but it makes no sense.
Consumers Protection Act works fine under general Constitutional Rights, so your efforts hurt consumers rights in public place.

Darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

@darius2, you seem to have a problem understanding what A-GPS is.

A-GPS is a way, using network capabilities of your phone (or wifi) to have a clue of where you are, and then give this info to a GPS chip to get the fix quicker.

Both N810 and iPhone have a GPS chip, and they both could give you your position without A-GPS. A-GPS only comes there as a support.

The N810 has a Texas Instrument chip, which is not so good to get its first fix but is good for other things(battery life, keeping the fix,...). To make the first fix quicker, Nokia introduced, as software, A-GPS. It improved the TTFF for most of us. Same goes for the iPhone.

Now, as your question is: why didn't they put the best GPS chip (aka SirfIII) in the N810 and iPhone?
it's like asking "why didn't they put a Ferrari engine in my VolksWagen?"

And asking, us or Nokia about that is as pointless as asking VolksWagen. They made the choice they thought was the best.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

___
Nope.
Such choice could be ok 5 years ago not today
with market full of $100 Sirf III gps based car navigations.


darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Darius, there are many reasons, most which are of no benefit talking publicly, but for example to quote publicly available material:

http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtb...=Other+OT+agps

There are clear benefits to having a solution that is integrated to the OMAP2420 chipset that the N810 is using, i.e. using the TI GPS solutions with the TI chipset that the device is using. Issues like price, power management, integration of feature, benefits in overall SW architecture etc.

If - and clearly since - you are interested in speculation, you can also read things like this:

http://wirelessanalyst.blogspot.com/...-acquired.html

It also talks about the importance of integrated solutions.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Never heard of A1, A2 or A3GPS. And I can't find any info about it, could you give a link or something? I'm interested.

Once the signal is acquired, what's wrong with the TI chip that would be better with the SirfIII chip?

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Here's the thing Darius Jack, Nokia chose Ti, Apple chose Broadcom, and Motorola, RIM, and I think Google chose SiRF. It's all about partnership and maybe how mature the GPS chipsets are plus support, connectivity, and openness for standard features such as aGPS (or InstantFix for SiRF). There can be a lot more other reasons but for the meantime, the GPS on both devices does their job.

You have been quite a character over at the maemo.org mailing list. You have been called a lot of different names there as you have been spamming the list with your unhelpful, stubborn, and egotistic remarks. I've also seen articles and articles about your reputation from different forums and blogs.

If you are here to just attack members and disrupt the community, please find a different forum or site with folks that are willing to compete and spar with you.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

That has absolutely no bearing on your request for strategic business intel. And no one's rights are being hurt.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

no more poetry.
asking questions is nothing about egoism.

Your are totally wrong.
I use one name.

How a community can be disrupted with asking clear questions
about a market product ?
It makes no sense.

As I remember I have asked you one question 2 years ago about
geocoding and got no reply.

Exactly.
Egoistic remarks are made by oponents of Sirf III quality in N810
(just read about 100 responses thread about netter gps in N810).

Shame on you Reggie.
Why are you against better gps in N810.

Why clear question like
why not Sirf III gps quality navigation in N810, iPhone
can hurt you ?

It makes really no sense.
If you know answer, just give answer + references.
That's all.

Sirf III is a standard in gps navigation,
and if a world-wide standard, why not in iPhone, N810 ?

Very clear and basic question and it hurts nobody.
Know answer give answer.

And stop your poetry.
In the interest of Nokia is to make better products, offer better quality
and hot gizmo products.

Today iPhone is hot gizmo, so let maemo to be next turn hot market gizmo.
Not interested ?
Shame on you.

And don't be childlish saying

"
There can be a lot more other reasons but for the meantime, the GPS on both devices does their job.
"
What job ?
Better job does Sirf III gps.

And don't take it personally.
Asking basic questions can not hurt anyone.
If you find asking basic questions on your forum as an attack on you
and your friends
just ask users not to ask questions.

But I really don't what what's your problem.
Just do your best to build better maemo, better release of N810 to be full market success.
If you are against market success of maemo .... by Nokia ...
I have nothing more to say and add.

Darius

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

OK, so here's what we've got so far:

1 - Darius doesn't understand aGPS, despite it being explained many times.
2 - Darius thinks that we know why Nokia chose to use the TI chipset instead of the Sirf
3 - Darius thinks the Sirf chipset is superior. He is probably actually right here.
4 - Darius thinks that shouting will get Nokia to stop using the TI chip and succumb to his will and replace the TI chip in his N810 with a Sirf chip
5 - Darius thinks that Nokia used the TI chip just to annoy HIM, as part of a personal vendetta against him

Have I missed anything?

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

I've never heard them called that, but there are lots of competing (read from different providers) ways to do "AGPS". Off the top of my head:

LTO (long time orbit or somesuch) which provides very accurate ephemerides (i.e. more accurate than the ones you'd download from the sats) so that you can then go without updates for something like 6 weeks with reasonable accuracy. This is called lots of things and is offered by a number of providers.

There's our basic AGPS (i.e. in the N810) which is probably just the delivery of almanac + standard ephermerides.

There's also services which will take partial signals from the chipset and then brute-force them to work out where the chipset had to be to receive such a signal (i.e. offloading the processing for poor signals).

Probably more than that too! :)

And the answer is we don't know. Ask Nokia. And say please, as I'd quite like a Sirf Star III chipset in the next device :)

Please also post some links to your comparison research on the chipset powers and costs.

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

6 - Darius thinks Sirf star III is a world-wide standard. I wonder if that's according to ISO or SI or what..
7 - Good arguments are to be dismissed as "poetry"
8 - When quoting a message, one should always quote it all and not bother trying to reply to specific issues, thus making sure the big mess continues.

As to gps chipsets, there's no Sirf star III in my Holux GPS receiver, and, amazingly enough, it works equally well, or even better than the world standard chipset. :D

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

9. Darius suspects that we and/or Nokia as a company want the N810 and similar products to fail
10. Darius thinks that this is the place to challenge and change Nokia policy
11. Darius thinks I'm one hell of a poet

Hey, 1 out of 11 ain't bad! :D

:p Ta-t3

Re: Why aGPS in N810, iPhone ?
 

Well, remebering the Office Open XML certifcation i wouldn't be surprised about it being ISO standard, but i guess SiRF Technology had more important things to do :D