[rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

OK, I know this is currently being discussed elsewhere and I'm not the 1st to mention this here on ITT, but:

To all of you who wrote or ported software: I adore your skills, I love you for giving me the software I need, I'm full of respect and admiration... But why do you hide your work from us, the users? Put it in "exras", for christ's sake!

It's bad enough when we have to add repository after repository to our lists for no reason, but what's totally unacceptabe is *debs floating around in the wild, on private websites à la "my work for the 770", listing filenames without explanations about compatibility with recent OS-versions or thelike.

Please!

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

I fully agree. I don't add other repositories to my ApplicationManager if not absolutely needed. The quality stuff should be in "extras". Stuff not ready for end-users yet, should be in "extras-devel".
And non-application stuff (libraries, etc.) should not be listed in ApplicationManager, i.e. they should not be of category "user".

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Programmers vs. Developers. Both create applications, but Developers document them and release them properly.

(This is coming from an anal retentive DB prick who can't stand how SQL2005 was inbred with .NET because it resulted in tonnes of programmers (not developers) with little DB knowledge screwing up everything they touch.)

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Heck, I don't care if you use my software or not. I wrote it for *me* and put it up on the web in case anyone else might want to use it. Until recently there wasn't a document on how to do it, and all the signing stuff looks like a needless PITA. It's a lot easier to maintain my own page.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Well, what I don't like is seeing so many items that are listed as language packs (for example gcompris has quite a view) or various themes and parts (irreco, OpenLeiroX, wesnoth). I think there should be a way to permanently exclude items from the appman. Having multiple respos allows me to exclude stuff that I don't want to see by simply not adding that repo.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

:shudder: Talk about a bout of not-considering-the-consequences.

Good, we're agreed, I don't want to use your software and you don't care if I do.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

I think actually what you are saying is "Make it easier for programmers to put things in extras". It's gotten both harder and easier to get packages into extras now. There is more documentation so it's easier. But, now there's an autobuilder you have to navigate. This should result in higher quality installs but it's an additional hoop that has be be jumped through.

Or what you might be saying is "Hey how can I help out?" Get involved, find your favorite program and contact the programmer. Offer to get it into the extras repository. It's a community effort for many programs. In my case, the thrill was writing my application, not packaging, adding icons, uploading, sign, etc. I would have jumped at the offer.

Frank

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

It's ironic. I have seen some developers programmers gripe about the slow adoption of the tablet, while their own work could help in that area. But the issues of fragmented repositories and missing libraries and other linux-type hurdles hurt mainstream adoption.

A linux-based platform CAN make the mainstream-- but it's gotta hide the hard stuff from average consumers who are, by and large, OS agnostic. So far I can't say this is the case with maemo (although, admittedly, that fact is not just due to developers).

As I've said before, maemo reminds me of the MS-DOS days. You could do all sorts of great things with DOS in the old days (and I did :D) but you had to know batch language, X86 registers, etc. Windows plastered over all that, and brought computing in general into the mainstream.

I don't think the OP meant to pick on the work of developers and neither do I. I think the point is it would be better for most if certain conventions were followed. I understand if someone like Gene doesn't care one way or the other, but I'm hoping that apathy is not the norm...

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

There you go.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

I see the lowercase used most. :p

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Yeah, well, it doesn't make it correct. :rolleyes:

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

rat see, rat do.

Oh, and from that link:

again, :p

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Ah, so it really is all a lie. He's a lemming!!

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Yeah, duh, because the page it links to was created during the brainstorm before the branding was redefined. :rolleyes:

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Nah, if I was a lemming I would have blindly followed the rule and used caps. Instead of using lowercase as was done in some instances on the page (and not just the one I referenced). :D

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It's fixed.

. . . insufferable.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Heh... I just saw the update. Niiice...

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

The General is obviously proscriptive, not descriptive.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Answer: because they don't care.

However, one could ask for the (patched) source, create own deb, and upload this. This draws attention to the application by other developers, and quite some .deb files are simple cross compiles.

If this is ethically OK I'm willing to start some work on this once I got SB2 for Diablo working...

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Well, not all of them. Some either don't have the packaging experience, don't feel that their stuff is quite up-to-snuff, or just plain don't have the time. I'm sure any of them would appreciate all the assistance they can get.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Well, a lot is decentralized (SB, for example). The Debian folks have big iron ready for this kind of purpose.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Great; exclude *all* repositories except extras/diablo, and that's what (my estimation) 99% of the users see as software they can install. (no maemo mapper, for example... who would want that, after all?)

Being able to exclude stuff you see and think is not interesting is a luxury feature. Never knowing that all these applications even exist is reality for most people.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Application manager UI improvements and Extras categorization improvements are the correct answers to that problem, anyway.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

This is understandable. But packaging is quite simple once you get in to it (well anything is:))

I am willing to package some high quality games for extras. Author of the port could speak up and say that here is popular game, which i'd like to get into extras, .deb and here is the source and here is the modifications made.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Well, with most things, of course. ;) But it does take time to get familiar with it and figure out all the little intricacies, not difficult, but time consuming, and time is always limited.

Actually, you raise an interesting point offering to help package. Debian has packaging teams, do they not? Couldn't we get some interested parties together who'd be willing to either help with or do the packaging for interested developers? A maemo.org Packaging Team, if you will.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

No.
No.

What I was saying was rant, rant, rant, rant. It wasn't meant to be constructive. But... Wait and see (below), I'm in a better mood today :D

One time for one person vs. each time somebody wants to install it for each and every user.

Do you think it would be possible to delegate this kind of work to people who don't know anything (or much) about coding?
Actually, I think it would be fun trying to make an already working piece of software perfect by adding a cool icon, getting it into extras, adding translations etc. ... (Translations, for example, is something I really love to do and is extremely underrated in this community where everyone can read english menus.)
It would be even more fun to do this together with others.

I just don't know if it can be done by anybody else than a programer. Take me as an example: I used to do some programing work 10-15 years ago in Windows, but never learned C-like languages. Now, I run Gentoo GNU/Linux, have no knowledge about Debian or Debian-style packaging. I can write short shell scripts for my own use, I do compile software every now and then that's not in Gentoo's portage, but if it fails to compile I usually am unable to find the reason, let alone correct what's wrong.

How difficult would it be for me to help getting some *deb from garage and/or a private homepage into extras? How steep is the learning curve? Are there step-by-step instructions for people like me who are not familiar with the Debian-terms?

OTOH: Given that so many apps are still either not in extras at all or did not make it to extras/diablo (which equals "not being in extras at all" for most users): Do the developers of these applications even want people to help them promoting their software? Maybe they're just proud of hosting repositories of their own...?

Maybe it would be cool to have a place where people who do the development work just say: "Hey, I finished my application, but I just don't want to do the translations. Also, I don't yet have an icon. Also, can somebody pls. do the packaging? It bores me to death." - I could go there and do the German translations for whatever weird software, somebody more gifted would do the artwork etc. - Just try calling for help in this forum. I remember berto did this for Vagalume in his blog (asking for translations) and it seems he was successful.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Your qualifications sound perfect. Get started here and here.

I like the packaging team idea. Just be sure to remember that it's no good unless a developer of any given program is fulling behind the packaging.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

I like the packaging team idea as well. Getting access to upload to maemo-extras is a nontrivial process involving GPG keys. Many developers don't have the will or time to go through it.

For Debian and Ubuntu there are package maintainers who pick up software and do the packaging. The same could be applied to maemo-extras IMHO. This could also lead to a greater acceptance of maemo-extras and better packaging quality.
That, together with UI improvements in the AppManager would be a good start.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Hum ...

I'll will make no comment about uploading or not to extras ...

But i just want to inform you that some tools exist to do it easily, mainly for python developpers ... gene.cash you can look at py2deb ... if you want some docs that isn't available yet (but will be after the summit), do not hesitate to contact me.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Probably the hardest thing to do would be to setup a scratchbox environment, which I'm not completely sure is necessary (translations and icons would at least require a unix type environment). But after that, it's signing, understanding some scripting if things don't quite work out right. Uploading, check the results, promote. I've got notes at home and would be happy to offer you assistance if you want to try this out, although my experience ends at going through the process for my single program. There are step by step instructions on https://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras

I'm guessing it took me a week or so of working on it an hour or so at night to get my application in extras. But I had never done anything like this before.


I took about almost a year of distributing my app as a .deb before I finally got around to deciding on uploading to extras. It was as I think has been covered, my app works, I like it, no one is complaining, why spend the extra time on formalities? I guess now someone is complaining. :D

This would be cool, maybe another section in the ITT Developers forum?

Frank

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

It could be as simple as those "Announce:"-threads i see every now and then. I don't think there's need for a sub-forum as long as we're not flooded by such threads. "xchat: need packaging" or "Maemo-PIM: help with translation" will do.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Okay, so who wants to step up and give me a hand getting the USB LAN package up into the extras repo?
I've got the deb packaged already, but I don't have a scratchbox setup installed and really do not have time to go through all the trouble of getting one up and running. The deb is all setup, works just fine, the only catch right now is that it needs to be in the extras repo in order to properly pull in a dependency, but it should probably be there anyways. So, volunteers to help out on this one? Any technical problems with the package/etc I'll handle, but I would greatly appreciate somebody to take control of the actual uploads and all the "politics" related to Maemo....
(I've got a few other packages that could benefit from the same sort of extra helping hand if anyone's interested)

Thanks,
-Rob

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

you could tell the url to find the stuff

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

If you mean Rob's USB ethernet stuff:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...hlight=usb+lan has a link to the .deb; the other stuff mentioned would include at least USB/BT mouse support, which is also around somewhere.

Edit: http://www.internettablettalk.com/wi..._and_USB_mouse

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

You are getting something for free and complain that it isn't 100% the way you want it to be? What a weird way of thinking ...

Are you aware that the gpl allows you to upload all this software into the extras repository? You can fix this issue youself. There's just no need to ask someone else.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

how about turning the app manager into more of a "app market"?

can debs support screenshots? as in, have a tab alongside the description that shows a image of the app in use?

one would be surprised about the number of people that select apps based on looks rather then description...

but all in all, i highly applaud that ui article :D

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Sorry forgot links before... as always thanks for covering Benson! ;-) Here are the latest copies of the debs that should be moved into the repo:
http://www.electronicproductonline.c....4.0_armel.deb
That's the USB LAN package that will work for diablo.

The Mouse support one is also up here:
http://www.electronicproductonline.c....1.2_armel.deb
though I haven't updated that in a bit, perhaps Benson has some more improvements to add? (I'll repackage, just don't have time to get it up to the repo).

Whoever takes care of it let me know so that we can keep in touch about updating these over time.

Thanks!
-Rob

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

Haven't really messed around with it lately. There was a report from some user that a mouse was half-working in stock Diablo, which was surprising to say the least. (He'd done an rm -r . /somedir, with a space between the . and the /; the default cursor naturally showed up, but surprisingly, he said the mouse worked, too.)

I've been meaning to look into this.

And for putting mouse support in extras, at least, the source code for a couple binaries I contributed will be necessary, as it has to go through the auto-builder. IIRC, I used stock source with no patches (compiling on the tablet, FWIW), but anyone interested in packaging them can contact me with any questions.

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

OK, at least you guys made me set up a working scratchbox here - and I'm not sure if I like this. Seems like this could be the way I spend my time in the future.... :(

(BTW: "working" scratchbox... I don't know. I can do the "af-sb-init.sh start"-thing and stare at the most ugly and incomplete mockup of what I think should resemble a home screen, but I couldn't even install an application... but that's a different story.)

So step 1 is completed, let's see what else I need to do. ;)

Re: [rant] Developers, use ....in' "extras"!
 

You think I complain because I don't get what I want the way I want it?

What a weird way of thinking ... :confused:

Brilliant idea. This will make for a great user experience...