Amazing new device...
 

So I was thinking about what the next gen of gadgets should be like the other day. I was trying to decide who I really thought was doing things right in this space now and who was off base.

This was sparked by the poll started by benny1967 about what the NIT’s real competitor is, but didn’t want to threadjack.

If I had the resources, my perfect device would be (please note, I am not totally technically savvy, so please don’t pick me apart for WANTING this if you don’t believe it is “buildable”):
- Form factor like the n810, Aigo MID, or even Wibrain devices
- CPU that will allow you to efficiently run portable apps.
- Sufficient RAM to handle portable tasks
- Wifi and cellular data
- GPS capability
- SSD Drive

Here’s where my dream device gets tricky. It would have a docking station that includes:
- More RAM
- Video Card
- Possible second CPU?
- Full Resolution Video Out to Monitor
- Mass Storage

So essentially, this device would handle all but the most resource hungry gaming. It’s truly portable/pocketable, but scalable to a full desktop environment. One device that handles all you need.

Am I off base here? Is this something that could feasibly be built?

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Well, first thing's first. The Atom really sucks for portability on an electricity budget. SSD is kinda pointless for a portable device, honestly. Just solder some chips on the board. Cheaper and easier.

The problem with putting all that junk into the docking station is gonna be bandwidth. There really isn't enough of it over a docking connector to make it work with the RAM, second CPU and video card.

Honestly, what you're really after is a decently powered tablet device that can hook up to a screen and keyboard without issue.

Soooo, N900 + DVI.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Is there a reason why you want an Atom, a second CPU and a video card? Especially the second CPU?
Or are you just after some more power than the current generation?
My solution wouldn't be to try to stick desktop hardware into a handheld, but rather go with a OMAP 3x or a NVIDIA Tegra etc.
They won't play Crysis, but they will play Doom and Quake 3.
And then in two years, maybe we get to play Crysis (if they open up the source).
Handhelds will always lack a few years after desktops, it's easier to make something big, hot and power hungry first, and then tone it down.

My biggest issue with the current (and next generation) devices is the lack of a good dockingstation with DVI and VGA out.
I recently abandoned my desktop PC for a Laptop + Dockingstation solution, and we are rapidly approaching a situation in which a small handheld could serve most of my basic computing needs. The TI OMAP 3 series isn't quite there, since i would need 1920x1200 resolution, but i hope that in 2-3 years this will be possible.

Bye,
NsN

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Naw, throw away that form factor and get something like the Readius polymervision 3GSM .

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I guess you didn't read the paranthetical part GA :) .

Just kidding. As stated, I am less of a designer and more of a dreamer, so let's hone the idea a bit.

- Atom processor is not a must, but it needs to be sufficient to AT least be able to encode video when docked.
- SSD can certainly be thrown out for soldered chips. Bulk of storage would be docked anyway.
- I am not buying the bandwidth issue as far as docking goes. In this instance, the docking station would have all the oomph, opposite of what a laptop docking station is like.

BUT, I like your summation. Just not sure the n900 will have enough power.

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That's a novel idea, put the main power CPU in the docking station.

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Why Tegra? It's a slower CPU than the OMAP3 with absolutely no Linux support. . . .

These two statements don't seem to jive with each other, so I went with the second one figuring you had changed your mind:


Then you don't understand exactly how much data is pushed around between CPUs, RAM, and video cards. :)

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Doesn't NEED to be an ATOM (remind me to edit the original post on this line item). Just whatever the new mobile CPU is.

Video card would be to aid in gaming (no, not Crysis level gaming) and also video encoding/decoding. Also allow scaling to larger monitors with high resolution.

Second CPU is not necessarily needed, but my idea is that this would be a portable device that scaled, so if we're doing so, why not allow it to handle more when it is docked?

Re: Amazing new device...
 

HA!

Wasn't trying to pick a fight General. Your comments are appreciated.

Trying to think outside the box here.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

@ maxinflixion, I like your ideas and I think the key to getting a N8xx to "dock" to a more powerful computer is to make it more than the current solution of "syncing" but where the N800 is the master boot record/hard drive for the docking stations and more powerful docking cpu picks up the CPU, video, sound, etc. where the N8xx left off. To make it seamless though would be the goal so that you just dock the N800 and its screen pops up on the big screen with the more powerful computer running the show.

I have also heard rumors about laptops getting a video screen mouse pad. What if you applied that to where the "mousepad" (much bigger than current ones) was removable from the laptop and functioned like a N8xx and then when it was docked it was the mousepad / second screen?

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hmm, that "dock" for heavy lifting sounds familar. ah, i know, i have been toying with similar ideas on and of for maybe a couple of years now.

reason is that i find the current system of "sync" to be a problem largely created by software using proprietary file formats to store their data. making it difficult to impossible to just store the data on a single media and bring that with one when going from place to place...

Re: Amazing new device...
 

That's a cool trick, in a first-generation, "watch the low resolution black and white screen slowly update" sort of way. I look forward to seeing that kind of foldable / rollable screen in actual devices, with more speed and maybe even colour. Also, touchscreen.

What?! You do understand that encoding video is one of the most processor intensive applications, right?

I really don't understand where you're going with this. Why not have a powerful desktop computer do all that heavy-lifting? What's the benefit of being able to do this stuff when docked, other than being able to keep your files on-device?

I would rather have a huge pipe to my device, a truly high-bitrate solution. USB 2.0 would be nice, or 802.11n, or something (HDSPA on the road). And of course, there should be no other architectural bottlenecks to slow down the transfer speeds. Because then I can just use sshfs to connect securely and quickly to my big network storage drives from anywhere, and ssh+vnc to remotely control my fast-processor desk computer. The hand-held device should be fast enough to play the (high resolution, high bitrate) video, but encoding it should be done off-tablet.

Anyway. Here's my "ooh I wish I could have this" moment: I would love a high-resolution micro-projector in / for my tablet. That would be an acceptable alternative to video-out.

But nah, I still want video out.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Okay so is this one of those "We all had the same Eureka idea within a week of each other" sort of situations, or?...

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=23704

The concept isn't EXACTLY the same, but if you follow your discussions about a "docking station with it's own processing power/etc" you're ending up in the exact same boat as what I was talking about... a companion device that's not quite a docking station, not quite a standalone machine, but sort of halfway inbetween. Lots of discussions have been going on around the idea (Tex even started talking about another possible evolution into a portable gaming server:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=23727), with everything from docking type of setup to something like hardware to support that old NoBounds concept. Anyways, lots of feasability and implementation discussions happening all over the boards, just find it interesting that they all seem to have crept up at the same sort of time.

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Too funny. I like that we both had the idea of the dock being sort of "in reverse".

I am pretty sure that these conversations are not only the result of all the n900 talk, but also due to so many of us realizing the limits of the current hardware vs. the potential of the form factor. We are all seeing that there are things we'd like to do but are just "that far" away from them beign possible.

This was the reason for adding a second CPU in the base/dock originally. The benefit is that you are really always using the SAME device. When you are on the road you are only taking what you NEED with you. You are eliminating redundancy.

For example, I have a backed up copy of one of my favorite DVD's (yes, I own the original) on my iPod, on my PC hard drive, on an SD Card, and on my HTC Touch. And this is not the only file I have multiples of.

How many devices can you use at once? There are countless photos of people's tablets sitting on their desks right in front of their PC's. Why is the tablet even on at that point? What are you using it for that your Powerhouse PC cannot handle? So why not snap it in so it can charge and sync all of your data?

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Yeah I often don't know exactly where my tablet is when I'm transferring stuff to/from it. Usually it's in the kitchen, recharging, and I'm using WinSCP or something on my upstairs computer to copy files to the device. My biggest complaint is just how slow the file copy is.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

These are some of the features I would like on N9000. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6bkm...eature=related

http://www.simplysymbian.com/2007/03...-mobile-phone/

http://www.techshout.com/hardware/20...ery-developed/

http://www.qualcomm.com/news/release...comm_Sign.html

http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/S...ner-73-24.html

Just the camera specs, ah heck phone specs look pretty good, and tv out. Nokia , no more excuses. ;)

http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/LG-K...le-a_3069.html

Re: Amazing new device...
 

You can run your rendering client on the NIT, and do the rendering on nodes, like distcc does for C compiler.

A nettop or Atom based computer is surely something to look into or keep in mind for the future (as announced soon multicore), but there are many non-x86 CPUs for embedded goals such as ARM, POWER, MIPS. AMD (Geode) and VIA are also part of the embedded market, and NVidia Tegro might be something to look into.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

the current dual-core atom's dont really care about being energy efficient. iirc, its supposed to have a TDP of 8 watts...

thats some 3-4 times higher then the ones used in netbooks right now...

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You can, but it's not as easy as distributed compilation.

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Not if you want Linux support.

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I was thinking a lot about the docking station too, but then I thought, why not just dispense with everything? What I mean is, instead of docking stations, why not just have screens + CPUs everywhere? If you really need to plug something into them, plug in your cell phone. Better yet, just plug in your fingerprint and go.

The only real point to a tablet you can carry in your pocket is what you can do when there is nothing to dock to, like when you are walking around, or perhaps when you are at work and want a computer system not controlled by the employer.

Maybe there is a place for the docked device as a transitional thing, but in the long run there's not much point to it.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

I had the same idea a couple years ago. It started out as an idea to dock my Zaurus SL-5500 (or was this on my Vizor Prism?) to something that could give it video out, then it quickly changed to just keeping my home directory synced to my Zaurus' SD card. Now years later, I realize that all I really wanted was to be able to get at my files from anywhere in the world. What I realized is that it's almost always cheaper to have two specialized devices with access to each other's storage, than to have a core device and some kind of dock. Not only is it cheaper, it's also faster and more flexible.

What I really need is separate devices that each have high bandwidth, 24/7 connectivity. That connectivity might be between them or to a centralized server.

@GeneralAntilles: CPUs and RAM could never get enough bandwidth and low enough latency through an expansion port, but graphics are a different matter. External graphics cards connected over the express card slot have been demoed but I don't know if anything ever came to market.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/08/h...-external-gpu/

-John

Re: Amazing new device...
 

I so agree with you. Then you can can use something like VPN + CIFS/SMB, or SSHFS, and have access to your files on server (home, work, colo/dedicated hosted, ...). Thus far only 3G and perhaps WiMAX are options, LTE not yet. Several Nokia devices (will) have 3G and WiMAX support.

For a Symbian phone you'd need to buy a Joikuspot license if you want to use more protocols than HTTP.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

http://i010.radikal.ru/0809/7d/bfb8ab414e67.jpg
That's what I want for Christmas :)

Re: Amazing new device...
 

...you want a computer-generated mock-up of a non-existent device? ;)

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That's exactly what I've meant :D

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Shouldn't it have a pony or something?

Edit: Here you go!

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Is that the image shown while the OS is booting? :p

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Count me in with the 'I so agree with you' post above :)

agree++

Re: Amazing new device...
 

I, for one, still care for offline operation. Therefore, my favoured solution is a dock which just takes over the complete filesystem and switches off the built-in CPU, screen etc.. Thus everything that has a state in my device would then be managed by another, more powerful computer. No syncing neccessary, (comparatively) low bandwidth. Stateless docks with CPUs, screens and network connections should then "lay about" wherever I go.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

I don't see how a dock is "offline". It is "online" in the most literal sense of the term, you are on a physical, hard, line to another device.

That solution seems like a kludge to me. As I said before, the real solution is getting a big fat wireless connection to your handheld. Then it will be like you are docked, no matter where you are.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

wired or wireless, i would claim that its more important that the file formats stored are open, so that it can be read without some kind of "sync" translator in-between...

thats what i more and more see sync as, a translator between two or more proprietary (formats)...

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Some sync is that way, but there's also the (etymologically correct) meaning, about synchronizing things -- keeping two filesystems that are "the same" actually the same, without reverting updates made on either side. It's kind of the same issue as with version control systems for software development, and it's conceivable that (with homogeneous formats) you could use git as a sync engine; something like unison is more typical.

To know what type of sync is in order, it's not enough to know that the same format is used on each end. You also have to know what sort of changes are likely; if you're using a directory tree structure, a file-level sync that ensures the latest version of each file is kept probably suffices. If you're using databases stored in one file, you've got to deal with simultaneous changes in both copies, and go for something capable of record-level granularity.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

sync is something that is required when you have multiple master copies of something, whether it is a directory, a contact list, whatever. It is another kludge to workaround the fact that we are not yet in an online world, and it is still safer and easier to edit a local copy and then sync up to a remote master than it is to edit a remote master directly. I dream of a time when we have write access to the single remote master copy when we need it, then sync isn't necessary.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

The best way in communication between PC and Tablet is wireless sync/network drive. It should mound drives automaticaly when it reaches home network (or whatever else, specified in settings). It's very handy, I think. It would be nice to just put device to the charge and continue your work on the desktop. I can only imagine automatic push to the home or work PC of all browser windows open, chat rooms and it's histories, even some notes that you've done during the day - for seamless web experience. And same acton to the Tablet side, when you're leaving home/work. That's what I call «take your internet with you».

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Dream away, but latency is still an issue, even when you've got write access from everywhere. It may be less of an issue, but there will always be places and times that make a local cache essential. Ever think about internet access on the moon? When the manned base goes up, they will have a Copernicus Center caching the web, just to make it usable. (Just add 2-3 seconds to your normal ping.)

Re: Amazing new device...
 

If all you're doing is keeping a read-only cache, sync isn't necessary. It also isn't necessary if you lock the online copy, edit the document locally, and then overwrite the locked online copy after editing.

Sync only becomes necessary when you have two master copies, both with potential changes, and you have to figure out which bits need to be updated from each master to make a definitive master.

I think the moon is the perfect place to keep backups of everything. I read a really interesting novel where they kept copies of all of earth's data in a lunar base, and they even kept samples of the genes of every plant and animal there. I wish I could remember the name of the novel...

EDIT: looks like people are actually trying to do it...

Re: Amazing new device...
 

"Offline" here just means no network connection. Maybe in 10 years the "always (safely) connected" dream becomes true but today it is not. And I think the paradigm of local data (physically manageable by the owner) will not die. The dock as mentioned is just a way to connect such data to a cpu+screen on demand.

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Hmm. Well right now for less than $100/month most people posting on this board can get unlimited data connections one way or another. For reasons of battery life most of those people don't leave that connection up 24 hours a day. As time go on, devices will suck less power, power saving software will get better and hopefully battery tech will improve. And of course cellular and wimax networks are expanding, not shrinking, so more and more areas will have this capability.

On the other hand, I have never in my life seen the dock you describe. Instead I see net cafes and courtesy computers in hotel lobbies, both with hi-speed internet connections. Maybe things will change but storing data "in th cloud" seems to be the coming paradigm, not keeping all your data on one piece of physical media.

-John

Re: Amazing new device...
 

Hey there.....

Resurrecting this old thread since it seems relevant again.