Palin/Biden debate
 

It hurts. It hurts.

Make it go away!

Maybe average overtaxed Joe Sixpack on Wasilla Main Street could fire a nukular missile...

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

”I think he can be ready, but right now I don’t believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.” - Joe Biden, about Barack Obama

I agree ;)

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Biden reserves the right to change his mind though. I find the usual "flip-flopper" accusation by both sides to be disingenuous, hypocritical (and if voters actually paid attention) politically dangerous. Anyone without the courage to change their mind when it's called for is IMO a dangerous demagogue (current president, anyone?).

But I'm not an Obama/Biden fan. I'm as independent as you're likely to see here, and will probably vote Nader.

But here's the kicker about THIS debate (it didn't involve Obama): some analysts sum up Palin's performance as relief that she didn't stumble like she has in interviews. I have to agree. Contrary to the assessment of the right, she didn't dominate the debate at all. In fact her persistant usage of "nukular" (gawd) and slams against the media had many cringing, self included.

Biden was by no means stellar, but he WAS steady and much closer to point that Palin was. After the high-fiving is over I expect that to be the final, more sober analysis of tonight's debate.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

My diagnosis of the debate is that Palin didn't make any horrible mistakes and also didn't demonstrate charisma that will upset the election.

It does scare me a bit to think of a President McCain reading My Pet Goat to schoolchildren and have Palin running the government while he is away during a huge national crisis. This is not far fetched, since it happened during the Bush administration, except it was Cheney in charge. And if the current administration's pattern continues for future Presidencies, huge national crises happen during every four-year term.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

"The constitutional role of VP should be expanded."

^That's freakin' scary! She really wants to be President... ...and that's all well and good but.

All I want is a smart person to run this country for a change.

I don't want Joe Sixpack, or a maverick who graduated 5th from the bottom of class, or a person that took 6 years full time and 5 different colleges to graduate with a dang B of A.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Crisis management IS critical. And I think the "hearbeat away" concern, while tritely expressed, is fundamentally valid.

It's been so strange watching this election campaign, seeing the democrat candidates as a mirror of the republicans. Switch Biden with Obama, and so many negatives by the opposition vanish. But then, McCain pulled away from the inexperience argument ever since he picked Palin. Surely I'm not the only one noticing that?

EDIT: gotta agree with YoDude. Palin's lack of grasping constitutional tenets is really scary.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

And all of them want to give a bailout to Wall Street mofos.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Wow, that's a new one... I didn't know that they had a constitutional role...

But, aside from that... I think she has more common sense than McCain and Obama put together. (And the two of them have both been in Washington long enough to grasp just about every law, and how to get around it.) Honestly, the two of them have been sitting in comfy seats in the house for a long, long, time...

And I really don't think she cares too very much (compared to other politicians!) about what her party wants her to do, which is good. (Various "I did ---- in Alaska, against my party," pop in to my head... her accent is cute, though :p)

I'd rather have a patriot and a good man run the country instead of a genius. (See George Washington for an example. :D)

And, Texrat, if I were old enough to vote... ;) my ballot would go to Bob Barr, at the moment.

/hides from flying debris/

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I don't see where that assessment comes from. Watch the Couric interviews, and see if you come away with the same opinion. Talk about a train wreck...

I would agree completely IF her actions matched her "maverick" rhetoric. With too few exceptions, it does not.

I'm still with YoDude: give me the brainiac any day over someone representing "Joe Sixpack". Hasn't 8 years of the latter cured us of that quaint notion yet?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Bush? A millionaire oil man? Joe Sixpack? Wth... He has never, ever, stood for Joe. Just his important friends... over yonder on Wall.

He has neither common sense, nor book smarts.

And that Couric *thing* was an *edited* interview, which should not have been allowed by the Republicans. (What were they thinking!) That was a big mistake. It should have been live.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I have one thought about Bob Barr -- at a time when it was obvious that Clinton would never be convicted, Bob Barr thought that the Senate had nothing better to do than to try to force him out of office. I have always wondered if the Senate maybe could have spent more time defending the US so that 9/11 would never have happened. And of course the Senate had many other things to do as well.

My attitude on this extends to the Bush administration, by the way. Quite a few leftists would have liked to try to impeach Bush because of the many, many bad things he has done in office. My position is that wasting time in such ways is wrong and irresponsible, whether done by Democrats or Republicans. It is dumb to try to do something that will obviously fail just to make a big show. That is what Bob Barr and his friends did, and that is what Democrats did not do, and I'm glad they didn't.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Palin was very well rehearsed. But for me, that created a certain disconnect because it wasn't real; although the weak attempts at creating a down-home feeling with phrases like "Joe Six Pack" and "Soccer Moms" seemed to be intended to combat this, it made it even more painfully transparent to me.

Appearances aside, she side stepped many issues while Biden seemed to pretty much answer as asked. Her attacks on Obama were just that, attacks, and really didn't have a lot of substance, while Biden really seemed to level McCain. Biden also seemed to be on offence far more than Palin, but I suppose that was no surprise.

In conclusion, I think it can be summed up with a few words: "It could've been worse for McCain/Palin".

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Bush claims to represent Joe Sixpack, which was apparently good enough for too many deluded voters. Sorry if I oversimplified.

And the interview editing is immaterial to Palin's errors and poor performance. You especially can't single out Palin as a unique instance since that's been common in such interviews as long as I've been watching them (don't ask).

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I felt the same way at the time, but grew to reconsider.

Clinton put himself in a compromising position, and thus the country at risk, and IMO he deserved impeachment... even if the rationale was something as simple as lying under oath.

And to get back on topic, Palin isn't in the same league as any other politician mentioned here so far IMO. EDIT: except one. :D

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

You're right. I've never liked that Bush as a president... Has he done much (any) real good? (I actually wanted John and John to win that last race.)

I'm not, they're always edited to... ehm... lean ;) This has~ happened, lots. That's why I don't understand *why* they let her do it.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

That's certainly the standard rant (this time from the right), but the point still stands: Palin's bizarre rambling cannot be solely blamed on "editing that makes the interview lean". That's her.

One could definitely speculatively argue that perhaps the editing skewed the ratio of good-to-bad responses, but the ones we saw stand (or fall) on their own merits. If the McCain/Palin camp is using editing as their excuse for her poor performance, they fail.

I thought she looked an awful lot like Bush in them...

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I thought Clinton was a rather good president. Maybe not so good a man, but a good leader, nonetheless...

And Yes!

I *don't* want a politician as VP! "Politician" was never meant to be a profession! The founding fathers expected it to be held by someone who represented the community, fixed problems, then left and went back to running his farm or buisness. It was never supposed to be a permanent job.

Palin never intended to make a living off of politics (from the news and her), but apparently she did pretty damn well up north, and she fixed problems ;)

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

The road to hell is paved with the best intentions. ;)

I used the word "politician" to substitute for a sentence that would be more descriptive but more awkward, too. Suffice to say I've never been a fan of "politicians" in the derogatory sense of the word.

And I suggest you review Palin's performance in Alaska. Looks like she caused more problems than she fixed... more come to light almost every day.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Evidently I should have watched this... maybe if I get bored over the weekend.

Anyway, as for the veep's constitutional role, it does exist, and consists of being "a heartbeat away", and of being President of the Senate, and breaking ties there.

The de facto role of the vice-president is expanded remarkably, and without more context on that remark, I can't tell what she meant. It is refreshing, at least, that she put the qualifier "constitutional" in there, rather than assuming a natural grant of any desired powers...


On the "intelligence" issue:
As for me, I'd rather have a President be good, intelligent, and correct. But I'd order correct first, followed by good, and intelligence coming in last. A president doesn't work alone, and will (if he's honest, which comes under good) choose smart and wise advisors and listen to them. He'll never pick advisors opposite his ideology, and the placement of "good" is somewhat arbitrary as all career politicians fail it.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I would hope every president would have at least one devil's advocate on staff. If nothing else than to check groupthink and demagoguery.

I know, I know: keep dreaming.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

If hell is where we go when those who mean well are in charge, I assume dust is what we'll be when those with malign intents (those against the will of the people whom they represent and govern) grasp power.

Cutting taxes, raising the standard of living, killing the state debt, and ripping the federal gov't's hand out of the state's reserved powers? Not a bad deal. What problems do you mean...?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Clinton lied about getting head in the oval office. Now if lying under oath about felatio is a high crime, then someone please explain to me how admitting, on record, at a news conference that the president has broken the 4th Amendment and the FISA statutes, is not impeachable.

It's not a waste of time, it is about protecting the constitution. If the president can break the law and violate the constitutional rights of every citizen, then what the hell is the point of the Oath of Office which stipulates the upholding of the constitution?

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

For it to work right, it would have to be an honest devil's advocate. while there are plenty of devils around Washington, there have been no sightings of honest devils in recent history. Hence, no honest devil's advocates.

Getting someone with a party as well as ideological stake against you and letting them in on plans is going to cause way too much trouble.

OTOH, you might reasonably hope they'd have a bi-partisan-loathing libertarian about. Somehow I doubt it; maybe they've tried, but the libertarians always give up and run away screaming.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

You're assuming again that the rhetoric can and does translate into direct and equivalent action.

Too often, it does not. Especially when it's put forth by... politicians (which Palin most assuredly is). ;)

And to get truly acquainted with candidate Palin, start here:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar...y_on_palin.htm

http://washingtonindependent.com/367...form-candidate

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Well, admitting it isn't impeachable. Doing it in the first place, sure.

In some areas, including Presidential impeachment, the interparty tension dominates over the inter-branch tension intended, so things don't work right; Senators are more concerned with blocking the other party from power than blocking the Oval Office from gaining power. That makes it a waste of time in the current climate. Rest assured neither the pro-president nor anti-president sides (now or with Clinton) are doing it for the Constitution's sake; it's all partisan.

It might be about protecting the Constitution, if it worked. (Though it would probably merely indicate that Party A controls the presidency, Party B strongly holds the Senate, and Party B wants the VP in for some reason.) Since it doesn't work, it is in fact a waste of time. Although my tendency is to call anything that makes the Senate waste time a good thing.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Colin Powell came really close. He lost some respect from me when he went against his better judgment and read the Iraq invasion "rationale" at the UN, but regained it by resigning. I think he has much more integrity than most people involved in Washington politics.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I mentioned the admission because it provides irrefutable evidence that it was done and done intentionally and would be admissible in court.

It is exactly the party BS that I have a problem with. It should be clear, regardless of party that breaking the law to the extent that this president has ought to have lead to impeachment. No need for long *** drawn out debates. Knock him off and give Cheney a serious warning. If the people in Congress cannot be trusted to follow the constitution then they are of no use.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Beautifully put, sondjata. Glad to see a fellow iconoclast here. ;)

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

Still... regarding Patriots vs. genius.
I'm sure General G. A. Custer was a patriot.
By smart I mean, someone who has applied themselves to the task at hand. Perhaps sees a mission to provide for the greater good. Not someone who has "been at this for like 5 weeks". With the 4 weeks remaining that would be 9 in total.

The winner of American Idol has to endure a longer, and more examined route to the top I think.

The ambition of this person is scary. The fact that she is confident that she could run this country if required to do so is scary. I'm afraid that if they do win the first thing she would do is try to have Grandpa John committed, LoL.


As far as Biden being a politician is concearned... He is also a statesman. We need more senior statesman.

The next president is going to have his hands full domestically and needs a VP who could travel the world to shore up what reputation we still have.

On a side note: I found it strange that she asked Biden if she could call him "Joe" at the onset, yet I think only called him Joe once... and that was while mocking him using perhaps a rehearsed line.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I'm not assuming anything except that she'll do the same thing in DC that she did at home. Do what she (and McCain, and the GOP) thinks is best, and get rid of anything or anyone that will prevent that.

I will certainly laugh if she really does brow beat some of the old fellas on capitol hill right of office!

She got rid of old that was in her way and she carried out the will of the (majority) of the people. She made the GOP and the Oil companies listen to her voice (Alaska's voice). That's ruthless. That's great. That's politics.

The people she got rid of should *not* be politicians by profession, anyway ;) Get out of the kitchen...



I'm just playing the devil's advocate (:D) with all this anyway, I can't vote, and wouldn't vote for this ticket. But, I like to hear what people have to say... and... can you think of a better way to get people to talk?


/rant/ - feel free to skip

I just wish we had someone with common sense, patriotism, AND kohanes that was running! I want a Thomas Jefferson or an FDR, damnit! Not these whiny politicians who do what they're told by their friends. Someone who loves the country (whether it is worthy of love or not!) and puts it first.

Someone who will stop lending money we don't have, and collect the debts other countries owe US! Someone who will REALLY do what the people want!

Give us a new deal! Start building more dams, solar plants, and wind farms with American labor! Drill here! Create jobs on the federal payroll that DON'T INVOLVE BUREAUCRATS! Put higher tariffs on imports and encourage exports! And encourage farmers to grow food and NOT DESTROY IT just to raise the price!

We've recovered from recessions and depressions, and look at how it was done! A "bailout" is not it! New industry and new jobs is how. Look at the Deals for the American people! Read a history book!

ABIDE BY THE CONSTITUTION!

That means getting rid of the income tax, the department of education, and taking away powers that the federal government has stolen from the states! And taking away a LOAD of authority from the Judiciary branch that they DON'T HAVE under the Constitution!

Why is there no one running on THAT platform?? On Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson's platform? The Constitution was meant to LIMIT gov't power and PROTECT the people. Not the other way around like it is now.

Why will no one step up? Maybe I'm just too young and too stupid, but I just want someone who will do the right thing. Is that so much to ask?

Henry was right about one thing. I can now smell that rat, too.

/breathes/ /rant over/

Really sorry about that one... it... slipped...

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

So brutal politics is okay as long as some constituents seem to enjoy it???

...

No thanks. I'll take statesmen over ruthless opportunists any day. They're few and far between, but they're out there. Palin isn't one, sorry to say. Keep your eyes open; you'll see. Just pay attention to Troopergate for starters.

EDIT:

Check out the candidates not running under either the democrat or republican banners.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I have ;) Their names won't be on my state's ballot.

Again... I wouldn't vote Palin, even if I could. Just talking out my ***.. :D

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

There's some Mastercard joke here somewhere. Maybe it would end with:

Sarah Palin actually thinking she's qualified: priceless.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

See, irrespective of which side you belive in, this is exactly the kind of apathy that lets misrule (Bush's presidency is exactly that) and bad policies happen while we sit and wait for the worse to hit us.

If the people want to make a change that works FOR them, then we have to drive away this apathetical attitude to politics (an I mean policy making) and be more involved - rather than keeping the interest and the vote (the only act of involvement) for the most bored day in life.

It is eactly this apathy that ruling govts utilize to keep doing more of the same.

And talking about the Biden/Palin debate - isn't it time America realised that intelligence and competence and understanding of issues matters in the president/VP and that having someone like us (pretentiously as Bush) up there can be a disaster.

I myself am a non-voter (non citizen), and am amazed at this belief in middle America that a average joe-sixpack can be handed a task of running the most influential country (add - in the world) efficiently. It boggles the mind.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

For what little my polictical views count - Amen to that !

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

"I myself am a non-voter (non citizen), and am amazed at this belief in middle America that a average joe-sixpack can be handed a task of running the most influential country efficiently. It boggles the mind."

Mine too. We should try this idea first, by picking pitchers out of a crowd instead of those who have demonstrated their skill at baseball. And scientists could be chosen at church socials, by majority vote -- compare their results with those of real scientists!

I have never agreed that politicians are bad. They are necessary. They have to be skilled, since they specialize in riding the tiger of public opinion, and if they fall off, they are devoured.

We actually don't need a maverick as President at this time. The problem with mavericks is that they often flounder when they get in power -- who can they revolt against?

We need someone with a better approach than the current President, and the ability to carry it through, not as a maverick, but as the head of a majority team.

Some of you think that it will be good to have a President of one team and the House and Senate from another team. (In fact, the Economist once calculated that taxes were lower when the parties in power were split.)

I think we are in serious trouble as a country. We need a unified and rational approach to governing. This is not the time for BS gestures such as impeachment. This is the time for regrouping and coming up with better ideas when the old ones didn't work. There are really good reasons for putting the same party in control of the White House and of the House and Senate at this particular time.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

So you're saying that I should care about this debate, even though I already know where both participants stand, and where they claim to stand?

And that if I just cared enough to sit in front of a screen for an hour watching a competition as much of acting skills as of intelligence and ideas, then that would somehow engender positive change, or stem the tide of wrongful government?

Really, that makes no sense; effective action is much more likely to involve discussing politics -- real politics -- with those around you than exercising your couch watching phony politics.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

I'm not apathetic... I'm bitter.

I have to go now. My church is having a their annual gun show tonight and I don't want to be late. :D

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

It's not Wall street that's getting bailed out. It's Main street. Just try to picture the economy when there is little or no credit. Just watch your local businesses go down the drain. Half are going to go anyway, it's the other half that they are trying to save. Try and imagine where all that money comes from that allows Visa and Mastercard to lend you money. If nothing was done to shore up the credit markets, the only banks would be Pay DAy Loan outfits. Wall Street has little or nothing to do with this.

Re: Palin/Biden debate
 

What do we need someone for and what are they going to do?

We need doctors to hopefully fix highly technical medical problems. Not exactly a job for Joe-6-pack. I hope my surgeon knew more about surgery than I do.

We need lawyers to deal with convuluted legal problems. Not exactly a job for Joe-6-pack. I hope my lawyer knows more about the law than I do.

We need car mechanics, plumbers, carpenters. Exactly a job for Joe-6-pack. Most of those I deal with don't know much more about their line of work than than I do (or can quickly learn), but they have the tools.

We need waiters, trashmen and cab drivers. Exactly a job for Joe-6-pack. I don't want to do their work.

I would expect almost any one on this board who can function with CLI Linux and operate a NIT could perform as a council person or small town mayor.

I would expect few of us capable of being president of the biggest, most powerful nation in the free world.

I want my president to be highly intelligent and willing to accept science as a fact, and to have a VP ready to step in if they become incapable.

I was embarrassed a little with Dan (potatoE) Quayle. I am embarrassed with George (WMD) Bush and Shotgun Cheney.

I cannot figure out WHY McCain picked Palin over the others unless everyone else turned him down and is waiting for 2012. I probably would have voted for McCain if he had chosen someone who might be able to fill his shoes, but Palin has too many faults that a wink-wink and a pretty smile cannot fix.