An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

For me the ability to put the tablet in my pocket is what differentiates it from the netbooks. Once you move to the clamshell size, I feel that limits it's use.

Each person's needs will be different. I just got back in town having left my laptop at home taking just the tablet. For me the tablet form factor is different enough I don't feel burdened taking it anywhere.

Frank

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

If they somehow manage to make a "clam shell swivel tablet" pc thin enough to fit in ones pocket, I will buy it. Until then, neither the N810 or a netbook is the ideal choice, because there are so many sacrifices.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I personally like using my 810 to print, play games with joystick, burn DVD's.

It's not just a niche device, It is a computer, if you use it as one.

Is that a penguin in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Yeah.. I may get a netbook someday for fun but... with the USB tricks.. a USB keyboard, mouse, and a 4 port hub.. this little device is my computer at home. Not quite perfect.. but pretty darn close.

The main thing a netbook is useful for (for me) is the VGA out for a real monitor. Once we can get the USB2VGA to work flawless on this tablet then an entire PC docking station is 1 cable away. But looking at the small screen while typing on a keyboard is sometimes quite a pain...

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I prefer a full blown, dual 24" screen computer, at least 8GB RAM, 5TB hard drive. But carrying it around is tedious.

I learned at IBM in the late 60's to carry a thinkpad, (see sig) and eventually moved to a small pocket notebook. When the RS 100 came on the scene I was lucky enough to get one from work. I liked it and subsequent notebooks, but they were all to big to replace my paper solution.

I've got the HP95LX, 100LX, and 200LX they all replaced paper in my pocket.

Normal PDA screens (Palm, Compaq,...) are all to small.

The Nokia N810 is the ideal form factor for me, fits easily in a shirt pocket, and with just a couple of small adapters connects me to everything I need. Thank God for OTG.

To me it's my Linux computer, my penguin in my pocket. It does internet well, but also a lot of other things.

It's my "Swiss Army Knife" computer. Now if they could just get the teleportation chip working :)

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

World's first portable computer weighs 60 pounds, is built like a tank, and runs only on AC power.

http://www.computercloset.org/ibm_5100.jpg

http://www.computercloset.org/ibm5100.htm

Key Dates: Announced September 9, 1975

Original Price: $8975 to $19,975 depending on memory (16K, 32K, 48K or 64K) and language (APL, BASIC, or both) options


CPU: IBM circuit module

Operating System: BASIC and/or APL

Input/Output: Built-in 5" monochrome monitor with 16-line by 64-character display; built-in tape drive with 204KB capacity; proprietary printer connection for 5103 printer and 5106 auxiliary tape drive



Its a computer and a pretty darn awesome one compared to the first portable computer. I'd say the price is pretty good also :D

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

;-))

OK.
Back to the topic...

I for myself have both a NIT as well as a netbook.

I bought the netbook recently - why?
- I tried to use the NIT as stationary devive as well. You need a bigger keyboard, a mouse and an VGA output for that.

All these things are included in a netbook and are not yet fullfilled with a NIT (connected via usb2vga toa monitor, keyboard/mouse connected to usb host).

So afterall both devices have pros and cons and can't (yet) replace themselves:

Netbook:
+ Office Keyboard (wind)
+ Mouse/Touchpad (Touchscreen additionally would improve)
+ 1024x600 display, even connectable to VGA

- doesn't fit in a pocket
- boot time

NIT:
+ small
+ "always on"

-/+ internal keyboard not for office use, but available (N810)

- mouse not (really) supported
- Display not realtime connectable to external VGA

My vision is to carry my NIT around, do everything with it and connect it to large VGA, keyboard, mouse at the office and continue working.

Hope that next device enables this...

asys3

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

asys3,

sounds like a nice way to work.
I currently carry liqbase around on the drive and do all compilation directly from it onboard, or connect via ssh for a full editing session from a big computer.

What upsets me most about this device are programs written for the desktop running on the tablet.
The form factor is wrong and an interface which "works" with a mouse falls down horribly on the device.
the inverse is also true and when we start to plug touch specific applications onto a big screen you will see for yourself.

(liqbase on a 17inch monitor is awful to use with a mouse and the size of the buttons makes the pointer tremble!)

I wonder how this problem will be resolved in newer more touch friendly devices come around offering tv out capabilities?

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

lcuk,
absolutely right.

Running desktop heavy apps ported to the NIT are from a academic point of view nice, cool and impressive.

But mostly slow and not optimized for a tablet.

But the other way round is not so bad, I think.
You can use most of the apps on the tablet as well on a desktop.

And if you could switch between stylus and mouse or use them both most things would work well.
Scaling of applications should work also (oh yes -that's not yet fulfilled).

asys3

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I would like to see more dual interfaced applications where the focus is on expanding and making use of the strengths of the platform.
For instance, if I were to expand lb onto the desktop properly, I would expect it to have more management features and grand overview stuff thats impractical on the tablet.

Similar in a way to how itunes and the ipod pair each other up and complement themselves.

Theres many types of software out there that can coexist in a multi platform environment and which would benefit from getting away from a one size fits all attitude.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I don't see the point of this "either-or" thing. And I don't see how a "web-device" is different from a computer. It is a computer!

What's great about the N8x0 is its size - and that it still is a full computer. A mini-laptop. You can choose not to use spreadsheets and word processing on it because of its form factor (just as I choose not to play games on my desktop PC because I'm not interested in games), but this doesn't mean it cannot run a spreadsheat application. More important: It doesn't mean it should be designed not to run a spreadsheet application.

I wouldn't need a second device for RSS, browsing and mail only. My S60 phone does all of this for me. Yes, it's not as good as a tablet in browsing, but the difference in screen size and usability is not worth the price of a tablet. More important: It's not worth carrying a second device with me.

If Nokia wants me to buy a tablet, it needs to be more than a crippled "mobile web" device. I'll spend my budget on small computers. The smaller the better. So far, Nokia wins because of its form factor. Once they'd change the focus from "computer" to "web-only" (or "media-only" or whatever only some of you guys seem to wish for), they're out of the game and Asus gets my money.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

what's the difference between tablets and mininotebooks?
it's overall size and weight, screen size, touchscreen, computing power, lack of mouse (and keyboard for n800 users).

i very like my n800 because of it's pocketability.

i'm sure, it can be used like "real" (but probably slow) computer, but that's not where it's strength for average user is.

i'd like to use it with all those applications adapted to smaller screen, touch/finger use, less powerful hw. i can, of course, sacrify some "desktop" features.
why? because for pocket devices i prefer "less is more!" (but i don't mean crippling those devices :-) )

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I like my N800. I find that it "just works" for what I need it for -- a bit of mobile web browsing, catching up on a movie or show I missed on television, or any number of other ways the device has found a niche in my day-to-day life.

Of course, maybe it's just the "gadget appeal"... it's just plain cool!

Oh... and, maybe I'm the only one here that also owns both of the previously pictured portable computing devices? I still use the Model 100 every once in a while, usually tethered to an open serial port on one of the desktops as a tty terminal. The other is used for its "ooh and ahh" factor among fellow geeks... and also does a decent job of propping open doors that like to swing shut. ;)

I also have two japanese/english IBM 5150 (8086-based) desktop computers (the DOS interpreter, in ROM, will hot-key switch between english, and kanji or katakana japanese!!), a PDP-11 (ooh! look at the pretty blinky lights!!), a DEC Rainbow, and a whole slew of 80x86 computers [where x = 1, 2, 3 or 4]. Perhaps I should open up Brian's Eclectic History of Computing Museum!!

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Agree with Benny1967, I think in the long run the question as it is phrased here makes less and less... sense, or difference, how you put it. Devices are increasingly converging together. Or to rephrase, I don't see the "OR" in the original question very relevant. Whether parts of the device/platform/software are open or closed (and to what extent) for instance is a far more important and interesting question.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

how about this, anything that can have third party software installed and run, is a computer.

or maybe make that a general purpose computer, vs a special purpose one like a dvd player or set top box...

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

...but what about devices which don't trust you to not sue the "embedded" manufacturer when you install said software?

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2710

;-)

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I like the NIT because it's versatile, not limited. I want it to be a computer; I'm glad it's a full computer.

But, you know, I don't compare the camera in my cellphone to my digital camera. It's a phone first and for all the convenience of that camera, it can't compete with the device that is a camera first.

So I'm trying to say, Don't lose sight of why the NIT is remarkable by loading up on secondary features. Yes, output to an external monitor would be great, would make the NIT more useful in specific computing work. But not at the expense of lighter weight, lower cost, or better features oriented specifically towards the pocket internet.

It used to be the Nokia tablets were priced cheaper than any netbook or UMPC, and the low price meant people with computer-first-carryaround-second needs were early adopters. I believe we mustn't let that initial (and temporary) marketing advantage play a very large role in planning for the future.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Right. This (the openness of the platform) and the underlying framework. While what I hear about Nokia's plans for a future UI makes me pessimistic, the fact that the underlying frameworks are desktop technologies give me hope:

It could be that to become what Nokia believes is mass market compatible, the stock UI will be less attractive and more restricted. I'm afraid of this, it feels like they're taking away my love. - But: As long as the platform is open and core technologies are borrowed from the desktop, nobody will prevent me and others to use them the way we want to. (At least that's what I hope will still be possible.)

So: Let's have them their way with 2"-buttons wasting screen estate in the stock media player - as long as I can still install and run a stylus-optimized mplayer-GUI that has 20 menus and sub-menus and 30 tiny checkboxes in the options-dialog and cries out to be used with a stylus.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

...for you. (I know you meant this, but it's worth re-iterating: not all of us "power users" want to be hitting 1mm^2 targets with a tiny stylus so that we can run OpenOffice.org; some of us want pretty devices which are mass-market which Just Work[TM]).

Of course. And, with the increased openness of everything below the rich UI layer, this'll only increase in possibility, not diminish.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

The video out feature is already supported by the OMAP hardware. It does not necessitate any additional weight or appreciable cost. AFAIK, if the video out is not made high resolution, there is no other feature that would be compromised because of its presence. There are smaller, cheaper and less computery devices (Tube) that have video out.

Yes, I agree the tablet should remain optimized for pocket use. We already had the debate of maemo specific apps vs. ported desktop apps. Since some people are clamoring for porting desktop apps, the only way everyone can be accomodated is by having a video out so that you can use the same tablet for maemo specific apps on the small screen and ported desktop apps on an external monitor.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I have completely stopped carrying my N800 with me except for rare special purposes. I don't need the Internet when I am walking around unless I am lost or something -- then my Centro will take care of me. It's not optimal, but I am usually not lost. When I want to listen to music, my Centro works fine.

Otherwise, when I am out walking or jogging, I am not looking at a screen. I am looking at the world around me.

I use my N800 when I am siting at home because it is fun and convenient. But I just ordered an eee pc and am curious whether it will replace my N800 at home. I don't need something that fits in my pocket.. My Centro fills that role.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Has any individual computing device ever accommodated everyone? Is that a workable goal?

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Of course not. By everyone I mean both types - those that want the current optimization of the tablet for mobile apps to continue and those that want the ability to port and use desktop apps.

And the important specific hypothesis (not an abstract general comment) which remains unaddressed is that video out on the nokia tablet would not necessarily compromise its optimization for mobile apps. If you think it would, then please explain why you think so. Or do you think video out would be worthless to those who want to port and use desktop apps?

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

there really is no reason why both worlds cannot be accommodated.

Think about it: a nice smooth finger friendly front end (which is also stylus friendly) and more indepth applications within.

It just makes sense

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I think if you've invested in a fancy 'smartphone' like the Centro, you're probably not going to see as much use for an NIT. Sure, the Centro isn't as capable as the tablet, but it's capable enough, and there's a lot of overlap in functionality.

Disclaimer: I do not own a mobile phone of any type. Unless you consider VoIP-from-tablet or IM-on-tablet "having a phone".

EDIT: I use my tablet for tablet-things most of the time (music, video, games, sketching, internet browsing); BUT it is really nice to be able to do laptop things for the times when I need it to. Yes, OpenOffice is ugly on the tablet's screen, but it is nice to have all of that functionality for the times when I really need it.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I don't disagree with this ideal. In fact, I'd like to subscribe to your newletter and all that jazz. However, it often appears during...
...that a vocal portion of the pro-desktop-ports contingent isn't interested in Hildonization or any UI tweaking beyond the bare minimum needed to get a new desktop application mostly working. To them, the tablets are just more Linux boxen, if unusually small ones, and Nokia's finger friendly efforts just get in the way.

As building your multi-mode UI would require even more work during a port, I don't see it being universally embraced.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I think quite the opposite, it would allow most apps to run by just compiling them, without hildonization. If the app has enough interest it may be adapted to be used in the standard environment.

People say its only the geeks that want these type of environments. However lets not forget, if the geeks go elseware, the mass market will eventually follow.

If the desktop environment was supported instead of being hacks, I think the entire user community would embrace it because its functionality would far exceed the current supported environment.

I as always must thank Nokia/Maemo for doing such a great job on the hardware, and the level of openness the have given us. I just want them to get onboard with a full computer suite, because I don't think it will ever be done right, unless "Nokia/Maemo" does it internally.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Well, it's unfortunate that the UI plans (or what little has been announced of them) make you pessimistic - the new UI is going to be a lot better than the current one :) But to the latter point, yes that is also a key part of being an open platform: if you don't like what is offered there, feel free to create and/or install something better.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

When designing apps - the concept of "workable" always applies to which environment and platform you are designing for.

Just because a spreadsheet is "workable" on a desktop PC, doesnt mean it is "workable" on a tablet - even if you could actually run it.
Just because it can run doesn't neccesarily mean it can "work".

A good app design takes this important distinction of "workable" into factor I believe. Its not what can run, but what can work - both hardware constraints wise and usable design wise.

Again, this is just the way I look at it. I understand that some people here need everything to run on the tablet and somehow work on it too.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I also don't want a multi-mode UI developed. Just simply enabling an external monitor prevents the small buttons (see post #20) and other anomalies that occur when porting a desktop app onto the small internal screen. With an external monitor (and an external keyboard), a ported desktop app becomes more usable even without changes to its UI or changes to Hildon. And I would think video out could be a sort of compromise to accomodate that contingent you mentioned.

But let's not forget that there was also a more radical (IMHO) faction that actually advocated doing away with the D-pad and other parts of the "optimization for mobile apps" on the theory that doing so will deter development of mobile specific apps and thus foster porting of desktop apps. While I would accept video out, I otherwise join with the OP in believing that we should not do anything to harm the mobile optimization, and that certainly includes changing the UI. (Edit: This does not apply to changes made to make the UI an (allegedly) better mobile UI such as Ragnar has suggested. But I know what I like in my wardrobe (obscure musical reference) and I know what I like in my mobile UI. If the UI changes are to be a iphone-like minimalist touch screen with no HW buttons, then I am skeptical and we will just have to wait to see what is the fad and what is the classic that stands the test of time. And hopefully we will have some kind of a multi-mode that permits use of the old UI if we prefer)

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Its already been proven that its very simple to switch from hildon/maemo to KDE, window maker, afterstep, XFCE or others and easily switch back without rebooting or causing any issues.

I think that the people who want an alternate UI do not want to switch, but add options. (well speaking for myself)

What the problem is, leaving alternates up to the community, and No "real" developers have attempted running a native alternate UI. So people like me,end up doing what we can, with no optimizations, no code changes, just straight desktop code compiled. The problem with this, is evident. Nokia could spend a little time to create 1 single alternate UI with a real Linux look and feel. One that the menus are the same as Maemo, with hooks and widgets into the underlying OS.

Even if it was unsupported officially, it would make many people happy.

Again, maybe I am speaking for myself? It would make me happy :D

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Atari 400.

End of conversation.


:p

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I suspect that the N800 platform is going to be squeezed out by netbooks on one end, and smart phones (iPhone/Android) on the other. It may retain some market share as a swiss army knife (aka Linux) for the tech elite, but not for the regular gadgetter let alone end user (student, business person).

Pocketability: I suspect that this advantage (size) is overrated. I do not transport it in my pocket, I throw it in a backpack /suitcase /briefcase. Weight does matter, but now that the netbooks are approaching 2 lbs, I willing to trade the weight for the usability. (And I understand the other tradeoffs with weight: power supply weight, battery life).

Software: Kudos for everyone who's ever contributed, but in the end, the software for the tablet never really came together well. Its a shame to think my Palm PDA works better and easier, out of the box, than the Maemo does, for things like PDA functions, handling Office documents, etc. etc.

In the end, I think Nokia should have concentrated it on making it a decent PDA, a decent GPS (ie: 810), media player, (pick your basic function here), and then really pumped up third parties (not just open source) to write other apps. Sort of like what Palm 8 years ago, what Apple is doing now. It worked!

My 2cents.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I'll give you a 50% rebate on your two cents, if you tell us how well your Palm PDA renders (transcoded 800x480) MPEG2 video streams from your wireless network.

A lot of people seem to think this thing is a PDA. It's not. It is an Internet Tablet.

$0.01 rebate. Remainder to be used to further improvements on the Information SuperHighway.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

meh, its a arm based pocket sized linux computer, anything else is marketing speak.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

(Good point.)

Because they can. Or because any other application designed for the NIT isn't up to par for one reason or another.

Running applications not designed for the NIT is good for others reasons: performance testing, seeing why the user interface is not good in general, seeing if the user interface is not good for the NIT.

The NIT is a Linux computer. It has hardware running on Linux. Many hardware is used together with Linux. Tons of embedded. Look at Linuxdevices. However, a Linux computer is not necessarily a NIT. A Linux computer is a very broad definition. To most people Linux is mostly known to run on servers, and then PC desktops. That doesn't mean the NIT is a Linux server or Linux PC desktop. Its the definition of 'computer' which is the culprit.

Same with voting 'machines'; they're not 'machines'; they're computers.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

I suspect they won't get squeezed out. Nettops will be used as travel laptops. Smartphones as well, but for lighter purposes. This includes phoning, but not only that. I suspect Nokia realizes this, and I suspect the smartphone will be merged with the PDA and Internet Tablet. That doesn't mean the NIT dies or gets 'squeezed out'; it'll just be able to do more.

Think about it. Qt + Linux or Qt + Symbian? As long as you have your applications!

BTW, from TV I learned the Dutch law says one isn't allowed to hold a phone in the car while driving. This is against phoning + driving, but it also counts for e.g. SMS, or even navigation. I should look the law up but this sounds like a loopwhile where one can phone using the NIT + SIP (+ WAN like HS*PA or WiMAX) in your hand. :D

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Believe it or not I actually programed one of these beasts. They were an exceptional kit for the period.

Re: An 'internet' tablet or a Linux computer?
 

Yes, I really think, that N810 IS computer. I can even make normal programming on it when have not access to my PC! I'm sure, that netbooks NEVER will never be so convinient as N8xx.