Religion?
 

Thread closed?

Good, that means I've won.

Re: Religion?
 

There is only one thing I'd like to add:

There's a reason there's a rule in the military for it's people not to discuss: "Religion, Sex, and Politics".

It never really ends well in large groups. Smaller groups are fine.. larger groups are typically not so much.

It's like Men in Black .. "A person is smart.. people are panicky".

Re: Religion?
 

You won? You saw a discussion as a game where someone wins or loses? Telling.

Re: Religion?
 

Too bad, there was a lot of good stuff in there. I love how these on-the-side discussions on ITT sometimes teach me a lot about topics I usually don't think about at all (like this one, and the mechanics of voting in the Council thread)...

Re: Religion?
 

Yeah. And you lost. Better luck next time.

Re: Religion?
 

Yeah, too bad.
The "freedom of speech" nowadays is something like: "everybody should be allowed to say ONLY what I like to hear".

Re: Religion?
 

You play a game nobody plays, and now you declared yourself referee in this fata morgana of yours. Are you sure you're not hallucinating?

Re: Religion?
 

Nyer nyer nyer.

Re: Religion?
 

Isn't that how the European Commission re-defined free speech last week?

Anyway, I like the old saying, wrongly attributed to Sartre: "Free speech is not here for the stuff I agree with, but for the things I utterly despise." (It doesn't go like this, but I like my paraphrasing better)

Re: Religion?
 

Well, I grew up in Romania and for the last 10 years I lived in USA. Here is something that I still don't understand, and doesn't matter what explanation you Americans come up with, I still don't get it:
why the black people can say the word "negro" anytime, but for everybody else is taboo? Doesn't things like this actually keep the racism in place? "We are from the black race, we can say "negro", you are from the white race, you can't say the "n" word"....
How stupid.
The kids are raised to be afraid to see what "freedom of speech" really means, for Americans, real freedom of speech can't exist because freedom of speech here is considered offensive.

Re: Religion?
 

True true.

And what a lovely country Romania is!

Re: Religion?
 

Actually, you can say "nigger" in the States. It may considerably shorten your life expectancy, depending on where you say it, but you won't go to jail for it.

In Europe however, you can be jailed for asking the "wrong" questions about the Holocaust, and in Belgium you can be jailed for whatever the politicians dictate the judges they should jail you for. Anything -- and I literally mean anything -- can be deemed racist, discriminatory or inflammatory, depending on how threatening you are for the Powers That Be. Brave New World...

Re: Religion?
 

I think this is a misreading of what freedom of speech in the US entails. The US government can't regulate the speech of its citizens. However, the marketplace most assuredly can.

With freedom of speech, you are also accepting any consequences the marketplace chooses or chooses not to impose on said speech.

Re: Religion?
 

Yeah, if you think freedom of speech is freedom from being considered offensive or foolish, you're missing the point, entirely, ioan.

As Karel pointed out, in other countries you can and will be imprisoned for your speech. All freedom of speech means is your speech isn't regulated by the government. Propriety is a seperate issue; not at all related.

Re: Religion?
 

Explain to me why a black person can use the word "negro" whenever, and I can't because I'm white.

Re: Religion?
 

Tell you what ioan after you've had your ancestors shipped across the atlantic for about 3 months with minimal food and in "quarters" fit for a chihuahua, then getting off said ship in the caribbean and having strange people feel you up and split you up from your family (assuming you were so "lucky" as to have had them shipped with you) and sent on another ship to another strange a** country where another set of people felt you up before buying you and putting you to work in some hot ***** field from sun up to sunset. Not to mention the frequent beatings, poor food and liability to be strung up from a tree for such offenses as being well...black, whistling or god forbid trying to get out of your situation.

Oh and then the whole share cropping thing, the whole you can't sit, stand, drink, eat, piss or shyt, here, here, here or here. Nor can you go to school or live here, here, here or here and should you attempt to do so you will find such lovely things as burning crosses on your property assuming you haven't had your property burnt to the ground...

Do I need to go on?


Look, I don't really approve of the typical use of the word by those fitting the above discreption, but the mere fact that it needs to be explained to you means you really ought to bone up on the history of the country you're currently living in before passing some really bad argument as a case of lack of free speech.

Anyway, in the states at worst you have a fine from the FCC (or perhaps get fired from a private company). In Europe you so much as look at a Jew wrong and you can find yourself in jail (I'm exagerating of course). Whole pieces of literature and paraphernalia are "illegal" as it may offend a certain group or "cause" people to hate jews. I find that completely offensive.

Re: Religion?
 

I tell you what though, you feel free to refer to me as an "n-word" so long as you don't mind any of the "nice" words I have for you and we'll call it even (so long as the censors here don't mess them up).

Re: Religion?
 

I'm not in any way racist... far from it, just that this doesn't make any sense. If is that offensive should not be use by ANYBODY.

Re: Religion?
 

ioan: You have to understand that the USA was one of the last countries in the world to abolish state-sponsored apartheid. Amazing how Americans can forget that it's only been 44 years since blacks were allowed to go anywhere whites could go, and 43 years since blacks were allowed to vote across the United States.

So there's going to be some racial tension there, yeah. At least for a few more years.

EDIT: This article about Black Codes says that these laws didn't officially end until 2000? Could that be right?!

EDIT2: This article says that long after legal segregation has been abolished in the USA, it continues in practice.

Re: Religion?
 

@ioan: Ok, think about it from a different point of view. Most of us here on this forum might call ourselves "geeks" or "nerds" but wouldn't necessarily want to be called that my someone who isn't also a geek. Multiply that by 200+ years of racial tension.

Re: Religion?
 

I think what ioan is saying is why do Black people call each other that term? Ok, most of my black friends use it among themselves, almost synonymous with the word brother, but when some one who is not black uses it (In a NON-offensive way, as in the term meaning brother), some of them get offended. The people who don't get offended are the people who know the guy calling them that, usually. Also, people here don't just use the "n-word" for black people. Indian, Asian, White, Latino, are all called it. As I said, its not a derogatory term here for the most part, but more like "Hey nigga" = "Hey Brother"....

Re: Religion?
 

A good friend you can insult all the way. She knows you're joking, not seriously trying to hurt her. From an outsider, however... so you have different relationships with specific people (and even groups as well as different behaviour.

Re: Religion?
 

Here, in Sicily, we joke all the time about mafia, and bosses, and people buried in concrete pillars, and so on... but if one from another Italian region, or from abroad, recalls these issues, even while joking in the same way, we happen to get very much offended :-)
Here some kind of collective identity hasn't been elaborated enough through the years and overcome - both for niggers and "picciotti". I'm sure also something similar makes flames out from WASPs, scandinavians, aussies and people from the antarctica!

Re: Religion?
 

No. I have no problem with the use of the term in historical or litterary context (as has been done in this thread). If you read the slave narratives you will note that blacks while in slavery took to calling each other "niggers." This was due to being called that all day every day by those who either owned or had power over them. Also, and this goes into why it is currently supposedly "OK" to use it now, It devolved into a means of equating people and "putting them in their place" among the in-group. Even among people who do not use the term in normal conversation WILL use the term in reference to someone who has offended them or has otherwise acted in a "bad" manner.

The rule of thumb , which works with all "in groups" is that if you're not in the group it is in your best interest to not use any "in group" language.

Now those younger (and older) people who use the term in reference to any one of any race who happens to be in their personal 'in group" like it's no thing: They are ****ing *****s and usually haven't a clue on history aside from what little **** they got in school. And as a matter of fact 99% of these people, even in their most "free" attitude will refrain from using the term in reference to certain types of black people; which is clearly indicative that they know FULL WELL how ****ed up the usage of that particular word as a "familiar" word is to reference one another.

Anyway. This is mostly off topic and I hate hijacked threads.

Re: Religion?
 

In conservative Catholic Bavaria, you can go to jail for blasphemy. This new law was introduced when M-TV aired the series Popetown, which was heavily attacked by the ignorant leading Christian right-wing party, here.
Usually I don't like M-TV, but for airing Popetown I want to thank them for having the balls to stand up against Jesus' bullies.

Re: Religion?
 

It's a jive thing. Honkeys just don't dig it, man.

Re: Religion?
 

I've always found that a bogus and possibly dishonest reasoning; if you go back far enough, everbody's ancestors have been persecuted, burned, hung, drawn and/or quartered, or even looked at in a funny way. I refuse to take responsibility -- or even worse: guilt -- for what my possible ancestors did to someone else's possible ancestors. There ought to be a statute of limitations on these things, and if there ever is one, it should have ended about a century ago.

Re: Religion?
 

So when was the last time MTV did a schtick on Mohammed and underage girls?

Heck, from what I've heard Jeff Durham practically had to go in hiding; and Ac<phlegm>hmed isn't even muslim.

BTW, from what I gather, Popetown can't be all that good; it's not even actively torrented anymore, seems like noone wants it.

Re: Religion?
 

No sir, your argument is bogus:

1) Native Americans didn't do **** to Europeans.
2) Ashanti's never did **** to Europeans.
3) Igbos never did **** to europeans.
4) Yorubas never did **** to Europeans.
5) Kikuyu never did **** to Europeans.

Shall I continue or has the point been made?

Re: Religion?
 

And sir, if you want to extend that "I refuse to take responsibility for what my ancestors did."

Then I suppose you wont be passing along any of your fortunes to your kids right?

Re: Religion?
 

You've made the point that only Europeans are to be helt accountable into the n-th generation. Whatever all those above did unto others, apparently doesn't count.

Re: Religion?
 

In fact, no.

Re: Religion?
 

You're free to use whatever words you want. That was my point. If you don't like the social consequences of your actions, that's irrelevant to the fact that there are no criminal consequences. Cultural taboos are a completely seperate issue.

It is taboo for white people to use that term due to the long history of oppression by white people against black people. It's not particularly difficult to see why it is considered offensive if you are familiar with American history. That's not to say taboos are rational. Quite to the contrary, nearly all are not.


You're being intellectually dishonest. Did they do anything to deserve genocide? Of course not. But, to insinuate that they had achieved some sort of perfect, utopian society until Europeans came along and killed them isn't factual. To insinuate they never harmed or wronged any of their historical enemies, including Europeans isn't factual. History is far more complicated. It's entirely unreasonable to hold a whole race, European or otherwise, responsible for the actions of their ancestors. It's a perpetuation of the same type of racism that it claims to oppose.

Re: Religion?
 

No sir. Karel made a point that if you go back far enough everybody did something to everybody else. A position that is historically untrue and I gave 5 examples that destroyed that particular argument. The "everyone did something to everyone else" argument is an attempt to pass the buck. I made no claims of utopia or innocence on the part of the parties I mentioned. merely that as it relates to my commentary, Karel's argument holds absolutely no water.

Re: Religion?
 

Good. You're consistent.

Re: Religion?
 

No sir. In the context of the conversation (Why can't I say "nigger") my point is in direct relation to the origins and reasons why it is bad form for someone not in the "black" in-group to not use the term. as posted previously and in this context what Yorubas, etc. did to Europeans (or did not do) is the only thing relevant to the conversation.

Re: Religion?
 

Is anyone who inherits anything from anyone responsible for everything they ever did? My parents probably did bad things I don't even know about.

Re: Religion?
 

Responsible. Is it responsible to vote one time every 4 years and for the rest do nothing?

Its conscious to realize the mistakes made in history. That way, by analyzing, you can learn the path these mistakes made, and make sure you recognize them next time, so you can evade such mistakes.

History, by both the oppressed, and the oppressor, is also passed on and on. Not always factually correct though, for the winner writes history.

Please don't. Its already painful enough this way.

I'm very well aware my country did bad things in its past and present, exploiting other people and countries for their own benefit.

For example, we West-Europeans dragged the Muslims from their countries (Turkey, Maroc) to come here and work for jobs we Europeans didn't want to do. As in, not even poeple from poorer European regions (Greece, Spain) wanted to do these anymore.

These people did not magically appear and decided to be Karel's PITA.

Re: Religion?
 

I backing off this because for me, this kind of stuff doesn't make sense. I'm totally against racism or sexism of any kind and that is probably why I don't really get it. Only one race is allowed to say a taboo word and you try to tell me that is not pushing the racism forward? Anyway, I don't want to become a troll, so I'll back off.

Re: Religion?
 

When the word "nigger" is used by a black american, it serves as a reminder that he's black, binds him to other black americans and separates him from all other races of americans, whether intentionally or unintentionally, consciously or subconsciously. This, my friends, is racism. I don't think that can be disputed. What's more subjective is deciding when racism is good and when it is bad...

My question for any black members who use this word is: Why?

Is it a social statement? Are you celebrating a historical bond among African-Americans? Or maybe it never seemed like a big deal to you, because it's always been part of the norm where you live?

(I'm not trying to attack or make accusations here; I'm honestly curious.)