Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

This may be a very trivial question, but I'm not familiar with Nokia's history concerning cell phone development, so:

What I know so far about Maemo5 is (if I understand it correctly) that there'll be early alphas starting Dec. 2008, but there's no Nokia-device that would be able to run these releases. I also was under the impression that these early releases might work on non-Nokia hardware like Beagle Board or maybe even Pandora.

Recently, when I talked about this to a friend of mine who lives entirely in his Apple-universe, he told me this was absolutely unthinkable and I had to be mistaken: There was no way, he said, a company like Nokia could release an OS, even as an early alpha, when there was no Nokia hardware, but only hardware from other vendors it would run on.

This was the first time I thought about this:
It really seems a little strange. On the other hand, it's a logical thing to do when you want developers to release 3rd party applications in time.

So how did Nokia handle this when they released new versions of their phone platforms? IIRC, there was a compatibility break between some revisions of S60. What did developers have then? Did they have any Nokia-hardware the new system would run on before the official release? Did they have a SDK that emulated the whole device on a x86-PC? Or did Nokia release hardware and the new software at the same time? (I guess the last option, Nokia releasing the software and directing developers to non-Nokia phones to work with it, is out of the question here.)

Does anybody know?

It would be interesting if the way Nokia deals with software in general changed with the Maemo process.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

I assumed that Maemo 5 will work on the N800/N810, just some of the features will be disabled. I hope that is the case, or there will be a lot of people annoyed I would imagine.

Also I assume this will just be the sdk, as you pointed out for the developers to test the builds etc.

So the time is coming for another "frankenbuild" on my N810 (same as diablo)

Also remember apple released the original iphone, which was completely pointless (in Europe)
Also their draconian T&C's to actually be a developer.
I'm sure if Nokia didn't allow anyone to develop freely, they probably would only release the OS after the hardware.
( [rotten] apples and oranges )

P.S. you think the next gen nokia will allow you to browse the internet "really fast" TM ;-)

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

The beagle board is not competing hardware. It's a naked board with a OMAP3. And I don't think much of maemo will run on the beagle or pandora. Most likely you will be able to run a naked SDK desktop such as can be run in scratchbox. It's just a means for developers to test their applications on OMAP3.

Before the N800 was announced, Nokia released SDK versions of OS 2007 for scratchbox. But scratchbox is on x86 and ARM emulation doesn't work too well. The beagle board could run the SDK in a real OMAP3 environment.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Here in Maemo Software R&D in Nokia, we developed Maemo 5 initially on N810 hardware until the hardware adaptation to the new hardware was working. Now we are working mostly on the new hardware with OMAP3 processor.

The SDK will be working initially, as correctly suggested here, in the Scratchbox environment. Because we are developing Maemo 5 with an UI and application framework that uses Clutter-based hardware graphics acceleration, it is not trivial to make the same code run on devices that do not have hardware-based graphics acceleration. In addition, if one does not have a HSPA modem available, several use cases that are visible in the UI will simply not work. And furthermore, if one does not have a high definition camera, then even more features will be rather useless. Not to mention that Maemo 5 is optimized for OMAP3 processor power. How the software will feel if one runs it on OMAP2 processor is something we don't know yet as long Maemo 5 itself is not feature complete yet, but it is something we are investigating.

By the way, we are on schedule with delivering our early SDK still this year. Stay tuned.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

You mean hspa hardware and hirez cameras attached to the host can be used from within scratchbox under maemo? What kind of camera and modem do these have to be? I assume that you don't just support any USB modem and and webcam.

Also will the new SDK be usable besides an existing chinnook/diablo sdk? Or will it replace the old one?

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Funny, I was absolutely sure I read something about Fremantle running on Beagle Board. Oh well...

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

in other words, dont expect fremantle and later on the existing hardware?

just say it already, rather then doing this marketing roundabout.

at least when its out in the open the community can direct their attention towards retooling diablo towards greater openness.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

And while you're at it, just admit that it's going to cost more than $600 US.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Honestly, that's probably the less interesting direction. The interesting direction is re-tooling the already more-open Fremantle for OMAP2 hardware.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

if you say so, and if it can be done at all...

by the sound of it, it will be less of a retooling and more of a "toss anything but the frame, then start over from scratch"...

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

There is a way, which is to integrate a platform made mostly of open source. The first Fremantle SDK will be 100% open source (missing some components and features certainly, but being functional and buildable).

Didn't Android run on the N810 before the G1 was launched? It's a similar story.

But it's good to have the expectations right. What your friend has probably in mind is a full fledged Maemo 5 SDK with the final look&feel and all the Nokia apps available under emulation. Something that would provide the code to hack a full Maemo 5 image with applications and etc. This is not the point of the SDK and this is not going to happen - at least not in the release we are preparing right now.

This first Fremantle SDK release is going to be a rough shot of fresh code targetting mainly platform developers. The API won't be complete, leave alone frozen, so not even application developers will find much real use of it. Power/general users will be able to do very little with this SDK, apart from reading what (we hope) the most advanced developers will interpret and write about.

This might deceive some of you willing to have Maemo 5 in your hands, but this is how open development works.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

thanks quim,

Seeing how it is shaping up will allow people to get ideas together.
Knowing where abouts and how clutter will sit will allow us to formulate ideas.

Since clutter already runs on other machines it should then be possible to test and start to build plans.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Hoorah! I like the words "on schedule".

Something Pandora pre-orders would be happy to hear, too. But alas... ;)

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

surely THIS is the most interesting part? These guys have 'the new hardware' in their hands. That's n900 or whatever it's going to be called, isn't it?

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Well, they've got something. Whether or not it looks anything like what we'll eventually be able to buy is another story. It may just look like a green board with chips on it, with wires trailing around and (maybe) a screen held on by rubber bands and a blob of chewing gum.

But hey, less than 5 weeks left in the year! So the Alpha SDK comes out in < 5 weeks!

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Hmmm... that phase was about 1 year ago... :rolleyes:

EDITED: Removed due to Nokia request. I wasn't aware this information was considered sensitive.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Wow, now I'm suddenly a lot more excited. The way they were talking at the Summit, it felt like they were still at the breadboard stage, but I'm just going to believe that Mara is right, because that's really cool.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

I wonder how long it'll take until we see the first blurry images showing up on engadget. I always loved that "leaked pictures"-phase.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Pictures, Mara? =)

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

im guessing that mara is on the edge of a NDA breach already, so dont get your hopes up.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

here is something that may interest people ;)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O7oTlm...eature=related

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Holy sh.... I'm only beginning to realize how powerful the OMAP3 really is. I mean, everybody says so and I knew some of the specifications, but I didn't have an idea of how this translates to user experience. :D

BTW, I like this one, too... maybe even better than the first one where the UI is a little awkward:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-UFUbqoNgs8

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

i just wish that my N800 was user upgradeable.

something tells me the next nokia will not have two full size SD slots...

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

****ing fast.

Seriously, ARM-core to ARM-core alone we're talking about a general speedup in the ballpark of 2-3x (a lot of that is memory and cache improvements). But you factor stuff like the C64x DSP that's faster than our current ARM11 CPU (430MHz) and the PowerVR, well. . . .

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

"If you'll notice: we're populating not only a small screen on the device, we're actually populating a screen with this processor up to a 42" .. erm... erm... environment. This means that you're taking what's basically a mobile phone environment and it's good enough to drive every kind of experience that you have, including this screen here.... And again, what we're doing here today is populating a full 46" screen :confused: with the Internet browsing capability, and you can see the speed of this is truly... fierce."

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

The thing I notice about both of these demos is that they were constantly breaking the 30ms response window that they were talking about at the Summit; it took a long time for the UI to react to user requests. I also noticed that the screen update speeds were pretty awful. There was jumping and tearing all over the place. I guarantee that the final Fremantle UI on the new Nokia device will be much smoother and more responsive than those UIs.

But it so nice to see OpenGL making those 3D things happen...

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

i suspect that some of the responsiveness is not related to software, but hardware.

those pesky resistive screens can be very picky about when they want to register a press, especially ones they have been used for a while...

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

i really hope the final devices are more responsive.

the 3d system seems fine, but certainly not fluid.
very surprised at how the Movial demo posted by tso appears to run.
Its ok displaying on the large screen, I don't expect turbo performance.

However the fierce internet experience was more timid than anything and had me laughing (kinda like when a kitten tries to roar)

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

I got a kick out of that . . . fierce description too.

The potential of the OMAP to support video out has been around for a while. So far, the video out from existing high end Nseries has been at the same 480x320 of the device display. A 42" display is for show, but probably the same res you would want for a 19 or 22 inch monitor.

Good software and UI is essential, but video out is important to enabling the next generation of MIDs to compete against netbooks and laptops. The 3D stuff is impressive - makes you realize how far tech has come in just 5 years. But it doesn't do anything for me in terms of a product differentiator- I'll take functionality over eye candy every time.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

SD69,
i prefer both :)

/me wants cake and eat it too.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

You don't want cake; you want candy. Appropriately cheap to license, Nokia can use this song to advertise the new NIT...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZ3KbLNz50

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

This is the sort of song I would prefer.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI

Nokia should be talking to Aperture Science Laboratories to bring GLaDOS to our tablets.
They really are a portal into another world :)

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

incidentally, Jonathan Coulton has also written my main anthem I think of in the daytime ;)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qYodWEKCuGg

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

This will be a funny truth for your friend then. When MICROSOFT was building the Xbox 360 they put Apple G5's in the hand of developers since the processor of the Power PC was closer to the tri-core processor used in the 360s.

So now your friend really needs to re-evaluate what companies will and wont do to get a product launched. We're saying Microsoft used Apple hardware for their new gaming hardware. That's deep. :eek: The unthinkable has been thunk. <smile>

Heres a few stories of earlier demos running from MAC's
Xbox 360 on MACs

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

well, microsoft are technically a software company, they don't care what hardware their code sits on.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

the original xbox was basically a x86 pc in a htpc case.

the xbox360 has a 3-core powerpc cpu, and a G5 would probably be the most straight forward platform to develop on (rather then emulators or cross-compilers).

btw, both the wii and the playstation 3 use powerpc related cpus (the ps3 cell being the really odd one, using a powerpc core and up to 8 special cores).

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Which tablet device doesn't have hardware graphics acceleration? The N800 and N810 do. Oh, you must be referring to the 770's OMAP 1710, it "only" has 2d acceleration.

Frank

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

Now you're just quibbling. ;)

Having no drivers for a piece of hardware is the same as not having the hardware at all.

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

I'm perfectly aware of needing drivers. And who holds the key to the drivers needed? I've got two OMAP3 boards in my office as well as an OMAP2 board. I've written RTOS drivers for both. I'm well aware of the details for what's required. I'm just disappointed that the vendor has made statements implying that the current hardware has limitations which would keep it from running Maemo 5 when to my knowledge, the 3d acceleration is lacking a driver that they could provide if they felt it was worthwhile.

Just say it like it is. We don't feel like there is a payback for porting Maemo 5 to the OMAP2. Don't imply that it doesn't have the required hardware.

Frank

Re: Is the Maemo5 development/release process unprecedented?
 

This has been discussed at great lengths elsewhere. It isn't as simple as someone "holding the keys to the drivers needed". There was never a stable, finished driver for the N8x0 graphics accelerator. The graphics hardware isn't just a simple OMAP2 SoC, because the OMAP2 and its PowerVR can only drive a 640x480 display. You may have noticed that the N8x0 screen has 76,800 more pixels than that. They had to hack together a custom solution to drive the big screen, and that meant leaving the PowerVR stuff to gather dust.

I want hardware acceleration as much as anyone. But at this point, I'm hoping for someone to hack together some elegant workarounds.

EDIT: I stand corrected. :o