Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

http://i.gizmodo.com/5172917/mobile-...for-nokia-n810

Didn't see anyone post anything on it yet. Anyone try it? I'm too busy studying for finals to go for it right now.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

seems they are focusing on the n810, so i fear they have not worked on osk support...

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

This is typed on fennec. Still a lot of work to do. Browser is unresponsive for scrollong until the page loads.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

interesting, osk actually work now, somewhat.

could not use it to enter a password tho...

kindaa fun to trow engadget at fennec to see how lomg it would take. sad to say it seemed on par with microb...

also, it seems to have noscript ported already. somewhat ironic that, imo...

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Out of curiosity I installed this on my n800 (just about to attempt a reflash so am not worried about testing) but it doesn't seem to work. It's appears it doesn't fit on the screen the top navigation bar that is; sometimes can get to bookmark manager, and onscreen keyboard seemed to work.

edit - scratch that... I misinterpret the instructional images on the start page, didn't realize you had to drag the controls into view.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Tear is still better, but Fennec is usable now...

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

I tried installing it on my N810 but it always says that the installation is broken but can be updated. when i try to update it, it alwas say that the installation is not possible. Any thoughts on that?

EDIT: Forget it, I obviously didnt have enough space left as some other app used it all to store its data :)

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Does anyone know where to change the mime type to change the default browser for links?

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

I have the same problem with the default browser.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

So far I've been unable to enter a password because the shift key isn't recognized nor can I enter any text using the onscreen keyboard.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Granted, it's only a beta but there seems to be a lot of work needed. It appears to suck up memory. I couldn't load up facebook because of that.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Well, the shell is certainly muuuuuch snappier, but since it still took almost a minute to load itT's home page, I'd say it needs a lot more work.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Consider to combine Fennec with Weave for a synchronized browser experience. With a recent Shiretoko build (Firefox 3.1 aka 3.5) with Weave extension you can synchronize your user data (cookies, settings, bookmarks; you name it!) between your desktop browser and Fennec. It is however not possible (nor the scope of the project) to have specific bookmarks or specific cookies synchronized; it is a full, 2-way synchronization. You can however opt to not sync specific data, such as forms or cookies.

Current caveats are as follow: 1) You must first create your Weave account on Mozilla Services, and get an invitation code 2) You must first set Weave up on Shiretoko; and then in Fennec 3) You must use at least Weave 0.2.111 and a recent Fennec (beta 1 is OK); preferably use the latest development version as well as the latest Fennec nightly 4) After you set up Weave in Fennec it might fail to synchronize the first time even though your login/password is correct. Restart Fennec and it should work.

Think of it as IMAP-for-your-browser. Or, think of it as an open source WebDAV client written in XUL (providing functionality akin to SyncML/Netscape LDAP/IMAP) with the open source server running on Mozilla Labs server. Data is stored encrypted on there, and communication goes via SSL as well.

Give the developers feedback on their forum or e-mail them.

Here is a quick howto for Nokia N810 (probably works on N800 too!) https://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Weave/InstallWeaveFennec

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

hehe ... i really, really love you for this public documentation of how poor the UI actually is. how easily people overlook or misinterpret the two basic gestures fennec invented out of the blue for no reason.

where should i send the beer? ;)


(if you wonder now what this comment is all about: i had quite a few arguments here about the fennec UI, saying that it is not intuitive, while a lot of others insisted it is. you're my real-life experiment. i was right. :p )

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Yes, those icons are atrocious and assume the user knows way too much about the app before they use it. Whatever happened to *text*? Swipe right for tabs, swipe left for controls. Done.

I still feel that Fennec's interface is trying to solve an interface problem that really doesn't exist. Asa should know better that visibility is a huge part of usability, and the reason this works in MobileSafari is because the controls are visible by default, and that the virtual space is uniformly constructed. Fennec introduces hidden panels that float over content that can be pulled in and out, sometimes in seemingly arbitrary ways. (E.g., in MobileSafari there's a uniform way to scroll to the top of any scrolling space, and the location bars and controls are always there. In Fennec, the location bar is attached to the top of the space, but there's no shortcut to get back to the top that I've found, and sometimes when simply scrolling up the location bar appears while in the middle of the page... and I can't find a consistent way to make it appear.)

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

I haven't felt it's that much faster than microB. I often get the "Warning: Unresponsive script" message. It's cooler though, assuming they fix the bugs. But I'd settle for faster.

Zooming was a mystery to me, but after reading this, I think I get it:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/UI/D...ng_and_Zooming
So, if I double-tap on the text of someone's post here, that text will fill the screen. Nice! That's different than any browser I've used, but I can see that will help them deal with a diversity of mobile devices.

Panning down these long ITT thread pages is a problem for me. There are no scroll bars and I can't get flicking to work, so I'm just dragging the page. But as I'm scrolling down it seems like it sometimes puts me back at the top of the page, causing me to grumble and drag, drag, drag back down to where I was.

Also, when I hit the swap button & switch to another app, sometimes Fennec pops up on its own.

In this forum, sometimes I had to tap on the links for page numbers multiple times before it did anything. I've had the same problem with buttons & links on other sites.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

that was a problem for me, too. you only realize how nice a scrollbar is after they took it away ;)

i'm at the bottom of a page in no time with the scrollbar. with fennec, i lose interest in whatever i came there for before i reach the end of the page eventually.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Oh yeah, as if we all understood how MicroB worked first time we fired it up. These gestures are Fennec specific gestures to allow the user to have full screen browsing. They are explained when you first start up the application. It comes with a manual/tutorial. I suggest one reads this before trying, or reads it when trying. In the only other finger-touch friendly web browser (MobileSafari) these gestures have different meaning. Mouse gestures exist too, for e.g. Opera, but these are not aimed for finger-touch friendly web browsing. Because the market is still young one cannot say that there is a standard for these gestures.

A positive example of the UI would be for example:

But ofcourse you will never mention that because it isn't what you are advocating...

This functionality is also in MobileSafari btw, but there you can also use multi-touch to zoom in more liberally.

The URL bar hiding, only at top, is a problem in MobileSafari and Fennec IMO but I don't know how to solve it.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

That's exactly what it is: People playing around re-inventing everything from the ground up for no real reason, making up excuses for it afterwards and trying to convince people that they have problems with their current browsers.

I read (a while ago) in Aza's Blog that "nothing shouts “sexy!” like pretty animations and a physics engine" and that this has "marketing appeal". So that's what it's all about. There was no UI problem to be solved. It was about "being sexy" and "appealing" to people in suit and tie who desperately try to copy&paste the success of the Apple brand. (Not the Apple UI, mind you, it's the brand that's successful.)

Function follows form here, not the other way round as it should be.

Well... I think the browsers on both of my mobile phones and on my N800 are really good. Better than Fennec. I don't have any problems Fennec would solve. And I'm sexy myself, FCS! :p

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

The lack of a scrollbar might be worth a bug report. However, a scrollbar is usually pretty small on the screen. There is little sacrifice for the rest of the UI. On a mobile device this is not the case; so you'd either have a thick scrollbar because of finger/touch UI or you'd have no scrollbar (we're not catering to stylus/touch users; we're optimizing for finger/touch UI). MobileSafari solves this with a semi-transparent, small scrollbar (horizontal and vertical; when required) which is by default not shown unless the user is scrolling and only if the user can scroll in that specific way. This is a nice, visual way to give the user feedback about where on the page they are, while it also doesn't look invasive. However, it has disadvantages too. On a NIT this scrollbar would quickly be so far drawn out (because of the height when compared to iPod/iPhone) that it'd be quickly far less informative while a vertical scrollbar would hardly be required. Still it'd be something to consider. Kinetic scrolling solves the issue of not being able to scroll quickly. Together with these bars the user knows where on the page they are.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Well, it is a beta application with a slightly different-than-normal UI paradigm for a market which is currently almost non-existant. The only competitor in this market as of now is MobileSafari by Apple.

Text has to be translated. Pictures/symbols you learn once and you're done with them. If you prefer a touch UI browser which uses a lot of text then you can use a different one, like MicroB. I can assure you however, that in my case, I'd love to have S60Browser give me more feedback in pictures/icons/symbols. Hmm, lets see...

Options on left button -> touch the button and the options are (translated):
* Subscription (on what? RSS feeds, a RSS symbol with a + would be a welcome substitution)
** "RSS feed name one"
** "RSS feed name two"
* Go to address (replacement for URI bar)
* Bookmarks
* Save as bookmark
* Navigation options
** Reload
** History
** Page oversight
* Full screen
* Zoom options
** 50%
** 75%
** 100%
** 125%
* Window
** Move between windows
** Close
** Allow pop-ups
* Clean privacy related data
** All
** Clean cache
** Delete cookies
** History
** Form.-/wachtwrdgeg. (???)
* Instruments
** Show workbox (not clear what this is)
** Change connection
** Disconnect
** Save page
** Send page
** Info about page
* Search
** Text
** Telnumber
** E-mail address
* Settings
* Printoptions
** Print page
** Page settings
** Example
** Printers (Not I do not even have a printer configured on the device...)
* Help
* Quit

The right button on the S60 device allows one to go a page back or close the window. Thank god. However all the above is there in text form and I keep searching my *** off. Had they used conventional symbols instead... and some words (maybe due to translation) make no sense whatsoever. They are not descriptive.

If you look at it from this angle text is not necessarily good. It takes up more page than symbols as well. When the EU was formed there was a goal to harmonize the traffic signs. Some countries had some really odd ones which were not conventional. Some differences were slight. Here, standards are to be set as well.

How? Is this for iPhoneOS applications in general? I surely haven't figured this out yet. I keep scrolling to the top.

I'm not sure about this. To me, this sounds like a sensibility issue of the touchscreen. The way the interface works in this regard (related to gestures) should be consistent. Even if you find a feature illogic, it should at least be consistenly illogic :D

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

definitely more usable than the last iteration. Fixed that annoying side bar issue as well.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

I'm going to set the performance issues aside and hopefully eventually see fennec as fast, if not faster than microb. Overall, I could work with fennec's interface and like having the full screen while only a stroke away from accessing bookmarks, settings or other open pages. My biggest complaint, and it's been mentioned above, comes from the lack of a scroll bar. I really find moving around on a webpage frustrating and even when the performance issues improve where we don't have to wait for a webpage to fully load before getting the page to move around, I'd still find it annoying trying to get to the bottom of an article. A virtual scroll bar that disappears would be my suggestion, but overall I can see the improvements in beta 1 being more usable. I hope there is lots more to come on performance improvements and interface tweaks.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

I uninstalled the alpha version to make way for this. When it started up it seemed obvious that either something is missing or else what is there doesn't work.

I assumed that this is because it is only a beta so I have given up to wait for the next release.

Based on what you say I shall go and find the manual and try again.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

From release notes:

Heres a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgj0J6CFes

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Here is a video for the V1.0 Beta
http://blog.pavlov.net/2009/03/17/fennec-1-beta-1/
I am getting there now.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

True, but that's just trying to make it easier for the developer, not the user. Not just that, but like you said, you have to *learn* the action. Once you've learned it, the icons are only reminders for something you already know what to do. The most important use here is teaching new users new interactions the first time using it, and these icons aren't doing the job.

Tap on the top-most bar (with the time/network/etc. on it). Works system-wide.

Funny enough, I JUST figured this out today and it has a lot to do with ergonomics. It's because when I am scrolling up, my swipes are not as straight as when they are going down.

Simultaneously, Fennec does NOT take into consideration that most people can't pefectly drag straight up and down -- you can see this when you try to flick-scroll when zoomed in: the page will slightly shift left or right at the same time (being right-handed, it's to the right for me). It's impossible to drag a page down without shifting it slightly.

Now the kicker: Try swiping the tabs open. You'll notice that the location bar appears almost immediately, while the tabs panel is animated open.

Add these together, and you'll see what was happening. As I was scrolling up, I would pull slightly to the right, causing the tabs to start revealing. This would cause the location bar to appear, as the tabs were slightly being pulled open, then disappear since I didn't drag right far enough. In the end, it looks like there was a weird gesture I wasn't doing correctly to make the location bar stick around, but in fact having the location bar attached to the page top *and* both the left and right panels just didn't make sense to me. And because I was so focused on the panel contents when I did intentionally open them, I never "saw" the location bar there as well. IOW, fairly unintuitive design.

BTW, the original Mac OS HIG has a lot to stay about how menu panels are triggered and kept open on a curve because users don't ever move on perfect vert/horiz paths. If you've ever had a hard time moving from menu panel A to menu sub-panel B, it's because someone was too strict about that movement and didn't allow room for error. There's definitely a lesson for Fennec to learn there if they want to make the flick-scrolling feel natural since they've added these left and right panels to dragging a page around.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Oh and don't get me wrong, I know it's beta... I criticize because this is the time for things to get fixed. :)

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Your argument fails. If people didn't attempt to reinvent the wheel or solve non-existent problems we wouldn't have progress or diversity. You may be happy with the tools available right now but in a few years you may find that you can't live without a minor detail that was introduced now.

Either way, rather than complain about what is being proposed, just use what you like and leave the trial and error to those of us interested in new tech.

Personally, I like the idea of gesture navigation. I'm happy to see the scrollbar as a nav device gone. However, I do agree that a visual cue for where you are on the page is needed. I don't own an iPhone but if I'm interpreting what I read above properly then there is a semi-transparent scrollbar for this purpose. I don't know if it is used as a nav device though.

I like the icons. They make sense to me. I agree that using icons over text is the most logical method for an internationally used application.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Yes, but there's a BIG difference between identification and instruction. Iconography is about identification.

Again, we're focusing too much on icons- or text-only, and not on whether these icons are instructional enough. The only way you'll find that out for sure is by user-testing with people who have **never used Fennec before**. We, by the very nature of being on this forum, are not valid test subjects.
I ran a mini-test with my wife, who is no dummy at computers (she is able to Screen Share into our Mac mini HTPC just fine, knows what SSH is, and does light admin of the computers at her office). I ran Fennec, handed her the tablet and stylus, and set it up as such: "Being a Firefox fan (which she is), you've just seen that Firefox Mobile is available and you've downloaded it. When you run it, this is the first screen you see. What do you do next?"

Ultimately the answer was "I don't know what I'm supposed to do." First, she thought the hand was representative of a link cursor, and thought the icons were clickable (they aren't). Then, as I suspected, she mistook the tabs icon to mean something about the Maemo environment, since (a) Maemo has a left-panel, right-content UI of its own and (b) the app doesn't start up in fullscreen mode, so you can still see Maemo's task space on the left. I kept reminding her that it was a browser, hoping that the controls icon might click with her, seeing the left and right triangles. But that's the problem as well -- they are triangles, not arrows, which is what you'd see in Firefox. Ironically, she actually dragged out the tabs panel about a quarter-way but not enough to open it up completely (so it quickly vanished), but didn't make the connection because it wasn't expected and she was too focused thinking it might do something else.

The most egregious part of all is that the location bar ISN'T IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE. This meant until she figured out the drag gestures, she couldn't even use the browser at all, not even to type in a URL.

BTW: Once I told her (and her mother who was observing as well) what the icons were, she said "Oh come on, who would figure out *that's* what they mean." :)

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

How did she learn this, and how long did it take her? You do realize these traits have nothing to do with touch UI paradigms? You did put it in fullscreen mode I hope? Thats the first thing I do... the rest of the stuff is distracting.

Have you told her the tips & tricks I quoted above? Its 3 of them. They should be very clearly in the first startup screen IMO. 2 of them are, but apparently the instructions are not clear enough.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

To interject re: scrolling again, I think usable flick-gesture rapid scrolling (which I still cannot get to work--am I missing something??) would be about as good as a scroll bar for web pages as long as these ITT forum pages. However, for very long pages (e.g., an entire manual or help system or FAQ or eBook) , no way. Maybe someone isn't going to pull up a long page like that on a smartphone, but I sure will on my n810.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

How do you mean? Either the developer has to arrange translations by the translation team or the developer has to arrange a graphics artist who makes the icon. You can translate bad, and you can pick a bad icon.

Exactly. A power button usually has the power symbol on it. My TV has that. My coffee machine has that. My laptop has that. My speakers have that. And so on. My old speakers do not have that btw:

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/...471771-330.jpg (click to view)

Now I ask you: what is more logic? And don't we now by now that if the button is pushed inwards, that it is on? Do you notice the colour of the button? All the other buttons and knobs are grey and black.

I'll keep you pondering what the right button 'automatic' does. :D

The power symbol is just like BlueTooth a symbol with wide brand recognition. RSS same. Back too. Forward too. Trash too.

Icons never do such job unless they already have brand recognition. Teaching this is the job of the documentation.

Doesn't work here with firmware 2.2.1.

This is very interesting.

True. This is also interesting, and not easy to solve. My first response would be that anything between a 315 and 45 radius from the starting point is a swipe to up. Anything between 45 and 135 is a swipe to right. Anything between 135 and 225 is a swipe to down. Anything between 225 and 315 is a swipe to left.

I understand your experience because I experienced it as well but because I know how the gestures work and because I know their meaning I am not surprised by it anymore.

Yes, like browsing the Start Menu in Windows :D

Maybe we can give feedback once we agree (or have weeded out) the arguments. What do you say about the compass description I gave? Does it make sense? Is it too limited?

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Pretty sure people do scroll long pages. I agree though; good point.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

More feedback:
* I think my problem with needing to sometimes tap on a link or button on a web page multiple times is because Fennec generally becomes unresponsive sometimes. In fact, it seems like Fennec can make the rest of my system temporarily unresponsive.

* Sometimes when Fennec is refreshing the screen it will reload the web page. This seems unnecessary, but it has other drawbacks. It is unexpected by the user, so it looks like there's something wrong with program ("Why is it doing that?"). It wastes time. It wastes money for those with cellular connections & certain data plans. And, if you loaded the page & disconnected from the Internet & this happens, then you can no longer read (or finish reading, as the case may be) the page.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

She's had a iPhone (1st gen) for over a year now, FWIW. So touch UIs are not foreign to her either.

But I didn't tell her anything or lead her into the functionality at all, that would have influenced the test obviously. I simply left Fennec in its default startup state and observed her from there.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Seriously, who reads manuals?

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

That is what I mean. Being used to an iPhone scews the experiment. Because there the gestures are to move up/down/left/right. There is no full screen browsing. You should put the screen full screen so nothing about Maemo is influencing her.

You should have explained her the 3 tips & tricks and let her try again. See if she understands it then. Or show the intro video. See if she understands it then. It is now explained visually, but not in a video. It is a motionless picture. Without text. If you'd show a small video instead of a static picture the user would probably get it. Potentially without sound or text.

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

Users who bought something and cannot figure out how the damn piece of **** works... :D

Re: Firefox Mobile BETA 1
 

The new Fennec beta has caught a lot of attention in news.

If you'd read the comments here it is pretty clear people do want this browser on their mobile phone. It has potention. The early Mozilla Seamonkey milestones also had potention... :)