How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

This is a blind poll nobody can see how you voted, well maybe Reggie

I wanted to run a poll here at ITT to see how many people know what the Maemo Council does? What the are working on? How can you get involved?

Perhaps I see the roles of Maemo Council differently then they actually are. To me Maemo Council are community organizers, engaging the community. Sparking community involvment. Telling me what expertise, help, problems they are looking to solve, and telling me in what specific ways they can help me as a community member that they represent.

I am only looking for the Maemo Council to be better defined and have a Entrance point, or Engagement point what members can go and find current usefull infomation formatted for humans about exactly what they do, are doing, have done.

Along the same lines they need to do a better job at telling people council's accomplishments.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Apparently penguinbait doesn't know them well at all, since it's the Maemo Community Council, not the "Maemo Council".

Anyway, /me goes back to vacation.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

No wonder I don't know whats going on...

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Thats two...
:p

RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX0FXhWicEI

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Thanks for the laughs, I about fell out of my chair. Two is better than one :)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

I've just revamped the council's homepage. Comments/suggestions are, as ever, welcome:

http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

The highest profile project of the community whatever is to abuse people with questions or suggestions, as one can see by the treatment of PB.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Yes, it's in our founding charter and all members must be sworn into this secret rule by emailing blood oathes to each other on taking office...

...or...

...it could have actually been people getting their wires crossed.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Jaffa: Thanks for adding the FAQ section.

I went to post this in the Community Council: Talk page, but it has been locked.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

I'm confused by the negativity surrounding these discussions. We're all on the same side here, so there's hardly a need to be accusatory or nasty in your posting.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

I agree wholeheartedly. I only was pointing out a problem to the Maemo Community Council that they were apparently to close to it to see. I wanted nothing more that to help the council. To whoever added the apeshit tag on this thread, please remove it, as this is not cool. We are all trying to help in our own ways. Lets all try to set our emotions/ego's on the side, and look honestly at the work in front of us. viva la communidad

Thanks to Jaffa for taking initial steps to clarify the Council's roles and I am looking forward to further improvments.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

The two biggest problems (here, and as I see it) are incomplete documentation, and misconceptions about what the council is and what it does (which stems, in part, at least here, seemingly, from some people being unwilling to step foot outside of itT).

The documentation was something the first council had on our list for a very long time, but which was never completely finalized. Jaffa appears to have solved that to some sort of satisfaction, though and (hopefully) has largely addressed the second in the same step, but I'll add my part to it.

A lot of people seem to have the idea that the council is (or should be) the highly active administrative body of the community (and, far too often thanks to lingering trademark confusion, of Maemo*). My own vision of the council is of facilitation. Our job is not to administer all of the day-to-day goings on of maemo.org and the community, which would be a very visible and high-profile position indeed, but to help encourage community activity and make sure every element of the community (including Nokia) is aware of what's going on elsewhere (in this case, we've apparently failed).

Maemo's participation in GSoC is a good example of how this should work. VDVsx (get that man a t-shirt!) had a plan for getting Maemo involved as a mentoring organization for GSoC this Summer, so he went ahead a put it together. He asked the council for some input and help (a quick sanity check on the idea, some help in implementing the plan, a little copy-editing on the wiki, etc.), but the council's involvement was largely peripheral. The success of the plan wasn't dependent upon the council, but we helped it along a bit and made it a bit easier and just a bit more likely to succeed.

This is how I see the council's involvement working. Not the high-profile group that comes up with the GSoC plan and implements it, but the group that helps somebody else do so—facilitators. So, no, there isn't a huge amount of fanfare about what the council does, but there doesn't need to be. If the community is growing and improving (even if you don't know we're doing it), then we're doing our job right.

That said, there a few obvious things that the council has done that, perhaps, you've missed out on (which is why I recommend paying attention to the council blog). The debmaster hiring is probably the most high-profile of them.


*penguinbait, to address the correction earlier more helpfully, the reason why it's most certainly not the "Maemo Council" (which is the same reason why "Maemo.org" is inappropriate) is because when you say "Maemo", what you're actually saying is "Nokia". Although the community is involved with Maemo's development (Maemo the software platform, that is) the owner of the platform and the trademark and the holder of the final say-so is Nokia. So when you say "Maemo Council" you're implying that the council is of Nokia and has some real say in the development decisions about the platform. This leads to confusion and misconceptions and what the council is and what it does. Both of which we already have more than enough of (for instance, Linux Devices recently made the mistake of claiming that maemo.org was involved in the decision not to release Fremantle for OMAP2).

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

This is as good a thread to ask than any... Where is Nokia the corporation in all this with regard to anything maemo.org, the council, or this forum?

Are there links you can provide me to better explain this.

I mean, are paid employees of Nokia directing maemo.org? Can a paid employee of Nokia be a council member? Will paid employees of Nokia direct or administer this forum in the future?

Just wondering...

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Employees of Maemo SW and Nokia are members of the Maemo Community just like the rest us.

Um, well, there's something about it in the election page on the wiki, but no, I don't think anybody's done an in-depth analysis of this or anything.

No more than any other community member might "direct" maemo.org. Of course, the "maemo.org four" have a lot of influence in the direction of maemo.org, but they're employees of maemo.org, and not really employees of Nokia (although Nokia is paying their salaries).

Sure, as long as they make it apparent that they're affiliated with Nokia (this applies to contractors like Igalia and OpenHanded, too).

Well, Quim is a moderator now and the recent forum reorganization was largely his idea. So, yes, but it's not anything underhanded or subversive (which is where it seems these questions are headed).

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Why is "Maemo.org" inappropriate? Right on the front page it says "Copyright © 2002-2009 Nokia Corporation". So it IS Nokia. If it is not Nokia, then perhaps MaemoCommunity.org (maemocommunity.org) would be a better web address than Maemo.org (maemo.org), since I doubt a lot of people will catch that "maemo" is something different than "Maemo". I also doubt that changing the case of a letter holds much weight in Trademark law.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Because Maemo with a capital M is Nokia, and a lowercase m is a way to differentiate between it and the Nokia trademark.

Yes, I've filed lots of bugs about trademark and copyright usage on the website, so I know better than most. :) The footer will be changing when the new site goes live.

That's an artifact from when maemo.org was, in fact, the official maemo (with a lowercase m) website. Now we'll have maemo.nokia.com for the users and Maemo @ Forum Nokia for the commercial developers.

Aside from the fact that a lot of money and time has already been invested in maemo.org as the Maemo Community's official trademark and legal entity, and maemo.org is already an established domain with four years of history behind it, maemocommunity.org is long and (largely) pointless.

No, but this is why I've been correcting people when they make the mistake (it behooves both you, as a community member, and Nokia to have two strong, separate trademarks). Eventually enough people will catch on.

Right, which is why there's also a .org on the end there. Don't doubt that Nokia Legal has invested a lot of time in considering the current arrangement.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

GA, you seem to, as other council members, take offense of members not knowing what the council does or is for. All I was asking for is it to be defined in a location and give some information about what the councile is for. How to engage the council and what to expect from council. Its obvious people don't know, its not a bad reflection of council, but more an issue to be addressed by council. The reasons and example given are great, but put it all togerther in one location so people don't have to come here and ask.

You say:

"The two biggest problems (here, and as I see it) are incomplete documentation, and misconceptions about what the council is and what it does (which stems, in part, at least here, seemingly, from some people being unwilling to step foot outside of itT)."

Perhaps this is because the information is not easily found, so people end up coming back here asking questions. Or they are just confused from the "incomplete/old documentation" Which is exactly why I was requesting some clarification

Again people need to separate the feelings from the feedback. I was only pointing out it was unclear. If it was unclear to me, as a fairly resourceful member, perhaps it was confusing for others also.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

I'm not implying anything... Just wondering.

Um, the people who pay my salary have a huge influence in how I act. What role does the council have when, or even if it is felt that the direction maemo.org is going is in the best interest of Nokia... and not the Maemo community?

BTW, is this forum now part of Nokia marketing? Will there be a complaint department?

Will, for instance anybody be responsible for answering to the N800 people who felt ripped off by the Navicore application or is that stuff ancient history?

What will happen if, by an extremely small chance, Fremantle or the device that runs it has a fundamental flaw discovered only after it ships. Will this forum become a clearing house for customer complaints?

... again, just wondering. (and remembering the posts on this forum during RX-34_2007SE_3.2007.10-7)

Kudos BTW to Nokia for making this attempt and I hope they are successful in their efforts to help fund our community. I fear that no matter what they do though, a large percentage of the public (device users) will feel that Nokia is less than an arms length away from maemo.org. Many may use it incorrectly as a means to communicate with Nokia about all Nokia products, not just tablets.

I appreciate the subtlety between big M and little m but most spell checkers will change the lower case to an upper case. Some may become irritated because they only taught their checkers the word after having been corrected for transposing the dang "a" and the "e" on this board in the past. :)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Along these same lines, not necessarily and org chart but some type of chart showing players. For example, not necessarily every person at maemo but players that are development facing, helping community members. some roles and responsibilities

Just a thought

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

What offense? If you saw offense in my post, then you misinterpreted my tone.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Well, if you weren't, I'm sure other people will be. ;)

Why don't you ask the maemo.org team (X-Fade, dneary, andre, and jeremiah)?

If maemo.org were going in the best interests of Nokia instead of the community, then that direction would've been decided by the community. Besides, the assumption here seems to be that Nokia's interests and the community's interests go in the opposite direction, which is quite far from the truth.

We just made it clear that maemo.org is owned by the community and not Nokia, right?

As always, you want Nokia Care.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

1) maemo council or maemo community council, Maemo.org or maemo.org

Nothing is meant by my, case and there is no rhyme or reason as to when I type what. It's not my concern, I do not work for Nokia, nor am I a council member nor do I think anyone besides GA cares, but I could be wrong.

2) GA you gave a great example:

GA said:
This is exactly why I wanted you to inform the communty what roles you do play. I do not set out to define you, I am setting out for you to define yourselves and DOCUMENT it so we all know what is expected.

I honestly do not know why this was met with so much resistance.

Maemo Community Council represents the community, the community deserves to have transparency on what the Maemo Community Council does.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

You are wrong, but I've been the one to take up the banner on it so they've left it to me. :)

This is what maemo-community and the council blog are for (this point seems to be going ignored). :)

Because the tone when you first brought this up felt less positive than it did accusatory (and many of the people posting in the various threads have been openly hostile).

That's why we have the sprints, maemo-community and the blog.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Wow... um, actualy I may want a different forum.....


Bottom line dude... You have not made anything clear... you dance pretty good though.

Has (or will) this forum (be)en sold by the original owner? It has a value and I doubt it will be given away...

Now if the original owners recieve(d) something for something; who provided those funds. If it was maemo.org (< little freakin' m), where did they get the funds? If it was Nokia (Are they Maemo with a big freakin' M?) how can they keep an arms length away from that org and this forum.

(I have no knowledge of the sale or value of this forum. )


Standard Disclaimer: I do realize that my poor spelling, incorrect order or omission of words, and my incorrect use of punctuation and capitalization at times may indicate to some how incredibly stupid I am. However, please don't waste my time by re-stating this in a reply and in doing so avoid addressing the questions that have been raised.
Time is just as valuable to us stupid and ignorant people as it is to you pompous and well informed ones. :)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

No offense has been taken by me or GeneralAntilles.

Certainly, my explanations were an attempt to see if the information I was giving would satisfy your questions (which may well embody those of other people). If it did, then the information was suitable for wider publication (apart from the mass dissemination it already had here and maemo-community).

Don't assume people are getting upset or offended. It's offensive to me to have people think I might be so easily upset by what I read on the Internet ;-)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Communication is a two-way street: explaining and listening. Perhaps GeneralAntilles' explanation hasn't been clear enough for you, or you still have questions - but don't accuse him of being untruthful or evasive.

No (and this is for the bazillionth time): Reggie still owns it and runs this forum. Nokia are paying for it; it is coming under the community-owned maemo.org "brand", but nothing else.

If Reggie feels that his site has suffered from the move, I'm sure Nokia won't take offense if he re-instates the adverts; refuses their money and goes back to being "internettablettalk.com" instead of "talk.maemo.org".

There are countless examples in the Real World[TM] of people being independent from the entities which may otherwise fund them. The UK Government helps the BBC collect the licence fee - but the BBC is still fiercely independent.

To suggest that Andre, Niels, Dave and Jeremiah have a conflict of interest suggests that there is some kind of conflict between Nokia and the community. There is not.

If you have no idea, please ask questions in a less accusatory manner; and refer back to the original announcement and the numerous other threads where all the above questions have been asked (and answered) before.

It's certainly off-topic for a council thread.

It is ironic, then, that you insist on revisiting old ground with potentially-scare-mongering questions ;-)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

No transaction is done. Actually little changes are done: the URL and the theme. The rest stays just the same. Believe it or not.

The big change is actually happening in maemo.org, going from the one and only official website for Maemo to a purely community driven site. Believe it or not. Probably easier to believe when you see maemo.nokia.com popping up for end users and Forum Nokia gathering all the official deliveries for developers.

What I fail to see is the relation between your question and the Council, but since this thread is to clarify things I thought it would be worth answering. :)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

And, if you are interested in how the community operates, the April 2009 sprint meeting is being held tomorrow (Monday): 2009-04-06T13:30Z:

Full details here:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Spri...ril_09/Meeting

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Well, I would respond, but instead I'll refer you to the Thanks! at the bottom of Jaffa's post and the post I made earlier in the thread.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

No more excuses about the maemo mailing lists :P.
I took the liberty to create the "maemo mailing lists forum"

More info here: http://www.valeriovalerio.org/?p=223
Forum here: http://n2.nabble.com/maemo-community...-f2589537.html

HTH

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

You just invited EVIL in there. I'm sure all Nokians will unsubscribe as soon as they find out. :)

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

FWIW, there is similar work going on at maemo.org itself:

• maemo-community
• maemo-developers
• maemo-users

However, I don't think Midgard's "forum" module is anywhere near as advanced (or useful yet) as Nabble or vBulletin.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Thanks! Action is what we need.

By the way, I think the -announce list is deprecated. Better to post announcements in maemo.org.

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

No offense qgil my N800 has been successful for me in spite of Nokia's past support. Believe it or not. :)

In the past this forum and it's members are the only ones who seemed to care about your customers in North America so I am concerned about the future.

My forum sale question was used to help council members understand the crux of my concern. That is; how much influence does Nokia expect to have regarding the direction of this community? The answer I'm getting is "None at all... but BTW, they are buying this forum and paying some of the salaries at maemo.org." :confused:

My confusion and the questions raised by it are motivated by a desire to preserve what I truly see as the good in this community... not fear mongering.

BTW, some could care less about an ad supported site. I know I would actually pay for membership to a site that was a source for accurate and unbiased information. Maybe I'm different that way but that's what I thought forums were all about.

Please excuse me for going a little off topic in a thread that appeared to be summarily dismissed by a member of our community council in the 2nd post. My mistake.

(That last bit was not meant to provoke a response. It was/is only my perception... Enjoy your vacation GA. No topic here is important enough to interupt some scheduled R & R )

Re: How well do you know your Maemo Council??
 

Quite well - I know many from #maemo where the medium is more conversational and interactive. I know them by their actions which have been positive and constructive. I certainly feel that any people 'elected' to herd cats are braver than I. If you don't mind me asking: did you stand pb?

YoDude - I guess I know GA (certainly his communication style and general enthusiasm) a bit and I can see how in the plain text of a forum you interpreted his message with a negative bias - from my conversations I'd just say he's a geek with OCD tendencies (like many of us) and was correcting a possible bug that may have helped clarify things for you. I'm certain he wasn't being dismissive (but I guess you knew that).

(I'm not really a forum bod but this one caught my eye as I was checking on the Shopper thread).