Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Webkit is now powering quite a lot of browsers:

-Default browser on all Nokia Symbian S60 devices
-Just about to become default browser on all Nokia Series 40 devices
-Default browser on all Samsung Symbian S60 devices
-Default browser on all Sony Ericsson Symbian S60 devices
-Default browser on iPhone and iPod Touch
-Default browser on Macintosh computers
-Core of Google's Chrome browser

In the mobile world at least, it looks like Webkit is now unstoppable. The majority of phones (including high end, mid range and low end) will probably be using Webkit in one or two years time. If you factor in the ubiquity of mobile devices, Webkit could well become the most used browser in the world.

Obviously desktop computing is totally different, that's a race between Internet Explorer and Mozilla Firefox.

Should Maemo adopt Webkit for its default browser? I'm not sure what to think because Maemo is so in-between being a desktop computer and a mobile device.

But maybe we should have a discussion about the relative merits of Maemo switching to a default browser powered by Webkit?

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

No.

They've already got a browser team (getting a new one is big money), and they've got plans for XUL.

Really, though, the differences between the two engines are less than you think (and as a side note, I've discovered that the S60 browser sucks).

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Mobile is dominated by webkit and opera. Desktop is dominated by Firefox (XUL) and Internet Explorer. Really, they are basically all the same. It is just that webkit is lighter, so it runs better on phones (IMO). However, the new processors like the OMAP3 are so beastly, that it really won't make a difference like it does on the N810.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Well, what would be the relative merits of using Webkit and Mozilla assuming Maemo was starting from scratch?


I don't think it's that bad! :-) Browsing on my 5800 is pretty much like browsing on my N810, same sort of speed, same sort of page rendering abilities. Did you actually try the browser on a 5800? It's a lot faster and a lot easier to use than it was on previous S60 models.

But in any case, discussing S60 is all a red herring: I'm not suggesting that Maemo should use the S60 browser, I'm asking whether Maemo's default browser should use the Webkit engine.

Even if you hate Webkit, it looks like it will become the most commonly used browser engine in the mobile internet world, and possibly the most commonly used on the internet in general. If that happens a lot of sites may be written with Webkit-based browsers in mind. Surely that warrants at least a little bit of our attention when discussing Maemo's future?

It's not even a quality issue necessarily. Windows might suck but you'd be crazy to ignore it if you're a software publisher. :-)

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

(note: specuation based only on public knowledge follows)

I really hope the 'beastly' Cortex A8 can run Fennec well enough, and the Mozilla team (with the help of Nokia thru things like the upcoming Danish hackfest) can bang it into usable shape in short order. I can't help wondering if the browser is one of the hold-ups for Fremantle's final release...

My biggest beef with all the engines out there is that nobody's bothered to make an optimized ARM Javascript engine. All the optimization has happened on the x86 platform.

krisse: Do you think Opera isn't a contender for the mobile space any more?

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

As I've said it before: an update to FF engine and ARM JIT will do wonders. + The WebKitGtk is still some steps away from being a complete WebKit engine like its brother backends in Mac/Windows. Even the QT version is still not completely up to date, though much better. Of course all that can be fixed if a company wants to.

FF on the other hand is a complete engine with a lot of potential because of its easy extendability with XUL and Javascript.

So no from me.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

I think you're a little off on that one. Probably WebKit only sites will target only iPhone and S60. WM6.5 is coming out in some months and it features WebKit IE6 engine...

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

The sum of these is about how much compared to PC + WM?

I'm not against WebKit though. I'm for reality and sensibility.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Not a huge difference, really. WebKit is a cleaner and lighter codebase but recent releases of both engines perform very similarly, and WebKit lacks features that Nokia needs (XUL and such).

Either way, we aint starting from scratch and replacing the whole browser team is an expensive proposition. ;) Besides, think of the money Nokia is putting into MicroB as an investment in Mozilla's mobile side. Competition is good. Do you really think we'd be where we are with JS engines without it?


Yes, I own a 5800. It's slower and much less usable than MicroB (although some of this is attributable to the poor interface).

I don't hate WebKit (in fact, I'm a fan of it and really don't care all that much for FireFox), and as for most common, who cares? IE is the most commonly used browser, should we consider that one too? ;)

What's to write for for WebKit? CSS text shadows? This isn't the era of IE where the developer writes in a bunch of proprietary features to their rendering engine. We have standards (and browsers which largely comply with them), these days it really doesn't matter much which engine you use. The fatal assumption you're making is that anybody is going to overcome IE in the short term. ;)

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Agreed... XUL is a natural progression for those who are comfortable with XML and Dynamic HTML...
Besides, XBL seems like a wonderful thing. :)

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

How long until the new Webkit JIT makes it into real browsers? Bundyo? Is this new optimized ARM Javascript engine coming our way under the hood of Tear soon?

Is there anything like this happening in the gecko / xulrunner camp?

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

The ARM JIT support in WebKit is young. I'll probably try it when there's time, but from what I understand there's about 15% speedup which isn't that much.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Thanks!

I beg to differ! 15% is huge!

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

You seem to forget that this is not a rendering speedup. :)

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

its impossible to use more than one window in s60, on the older ones anyway.

i love browsing my 6120 on the go, and even used my n80 ahead of my PC. then i got the n800, which took over, a cross-over between mobile and PC, which is why its so great

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

I have been worried about fennec's performance since I tried the beta version, I hope they work them out. While I was very surprised at how well Tear beta worked.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

I don't know if this is a webkit feature, or if this Google-specific, but I totally fell in love with the fit-to-width feature on my G1. Compared to microb's crappy implementation, this one works really well for most websites.
I really hope Maemo 5 will have a better browser. :)

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Yes, as long it works with standard features, which means:

- support of cookies on local webpages (file:/// URL) which does NOT work on the beta webkit version of the N810 browser and not on the standard 5800 browser, but Safari (and all other browsers) does support this
- changeable user agent: the builtin browser of phones have a hardcoded mobile user agent which does not allow viewing some full webpages. Luckily the N810 MicroB can change it and opens even full websites by default.
That is why I hate browsers on phones: they are able to show full webpages, but the user agent cripples them.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Don't worry about that.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Offered without comment: http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/m...guys.enlighten

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

Best non-post this month. Thanks. This is a good read for anyone wondering why browser technology is still very much a bleeding-edge work-in-progress. It's some main players having a CISC vs. RISC kind of discussion.

Re: Should Maemo switch to Webkit as the default browser?
 

In my S60Browser (on Nokia E71) that is possible.

The experience is, at least for me, that it Just Works and is good and fast enough while providing an adequate experience. I especially love the RSS integration in my Bookmarks. Knowing the shortcuts is very important to a quick experience. This counts for S60 itself as well, it isn't directly WebKit related.

That said, I believe WebKit will be able as option in Extras, and

1) I'd be happy if I would have the choice between both rendering engines unless either one together with a browser is Good Enough. Then you can have that default without the user bothering about rendering engine.

2) for that you need performance (stability, reliability, speed) and the UI very much optimized for the software and hardware (screen size, input options). Personally, I believe Fennec fill that role, but maybe not in time for Maemo 5.0-RELEASE.