Harmattan?
 

Re: Harmattan?
 

Is this what we are all doing here?

I truly hope someone from Maemo addresses this allegation.

Re: Harmattan?
 

I'm never sure what to make of these kinds of "leaks".

Even if it was genuine, it doesn't really tell you anything about Harmattan because it's basically just a multi-screen calendar application. It would be like having just the tyres of a new car model: important components but not exactly saying much about the car as a whole.

If it is real, I'm going to guess this is an in-house mockup and not really a screenshot.

It looks very nice, and I like the idea of moving around the application the same way you'd move around a website.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Looks interesting.... I am not liking the Q4 2010 release date mentioned. Did anyone happen to see the carrier "Adverts" that the writeup mentioned?

edit:
Ouch, I really need sleep... For some reason I read this as refering to the NEXT tablet , not the next plus 1.

Re: Harmattan?
 

I really wouldn't read too much into that, it looks like it's just a concept screen and most leaked Nokia concept stuff never makes it off the drawing board. (For example a few years ago there was a huge spate of leaks of a "Nokia Neo" device with no keypad or touchscreen, just a circular dial, but it was never actually released. And there must have been two or three leaked "N96"s which bore no resemblance to any released phones.)

On top of that, Q4 2010 is such a long way away that no one could possibly make a decision on such a project right now anyway.

Also, the people writing the article aren't exactly researching things properly - they refer to "Symbian S40 and S60"... S40 isn't Symbian and anyone serious about phone OSes should know that. It would be like writing an article about desktop OSes and talking about Microsoft Linux.

EDIT: Just to give a further example of being cautious about taking leaks too seriously, I once got a scoop by obtaining a genuine internal Nokia document which contained all their plans for the new N-Gage platform. A lot of the stuff in the document simply never happened, it was stuff that was planned and some of it even announced at some point but never actually carried through.

Closer to home, the Nokia 7700 was supposed to be their first touchscreen device and that too never actually went into production despite prototypes being sent to reviewers.

I'm not saying anything about this leak is wrong, I've got no idea whether it's correct or not. I'm just saying that all leaks have to be taken with a very very large pinch of salt as it's impossible to be certain which concepts and products actually make it into the shops.

Re: Harmattan?
 

the most i can get from it is that someone at nokia is playing around with extending the screen area virtually...

Re: Harmattan?
 

...if you took it to an extreme by assuming an always-on connection, you could even have the interface made up entirely of web pages. :-)

I don't think that's the case here, obviously, but web-based content is starting to creep into mobile apps here and there already.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Wow guys... So critical...

I just wanted to say:

LOOKS SO COOL!!!!

Re: Harmattan?
 

Silence from both peter@maemomarketing and Ragnar, proves that this in fact is remotely true..... or is it not?

Re: Harmattan?
 

... we can only hopy this creepy fashion will be gone again soon. ;)

Re: Harmattan?
 

@sachin
Or maybe their timezone isn't awake yet ;)

Re: Harmattan?
 

While I don't like the idea of anything on my Maemo device (phone or not) making it irreversably dependent on an "always on"-connection, I don't really have a problem with the idea of ads.

See, right now, to get a cheap phone, I have to pay the carrier; renew my new contract for another year or two, sign up to a data plan, whatever. It's money. I can refuse the deal and pay the full price.
If I get an option for the same cheap phone by simply having part of my home screen reserved for an ad - why not? As long as there's still the possibility to get the ads-free version at full price.


The other thing that sounds bad is that the ad isn't removable, which somehow feels wrong in the context of a "free" operating system. You expect to be able to hack your device, don't you, and even more you expect to have full control over the home screen.
I don't know how they'd implement it code-wise, but I remember Nokia saying that free code may end at the level of the user interface. That's not news to us. We knew they'd probably build a proprietary UI on top of the free components... and an ad module being hardwired into this proprietary UI doesn't taint the free components or make them less hackable.

So if these rumours are true, as long as it's an option you can choose to keep the price down I'm happy with it.

And in general... I'm too busy getting my old brain to love Fremantle, I'm not inclined to worry about unconfirmed rumours that may or may not affect a device that may or may not be released 2010/2011. ;)

Re: Harmattan?
 

Actually i saw them online on the forum for quite sometime, haven't seen qgil yet.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Oh come on, do you really expect them to go around confirming or denying every little rumour that gets posted on some blog?

Personal opinion: I don't buy it, and even if it was an actual idea at some point the advertising bubble is bursting as we speak and 2010-11 would be a very bad time for an ad-subsidised revenue model. Not to mention the legal minefield of data protection and privacy legislation, just look at all the (very legitimate IMHO) hassle Google is getting from the EU for a lot less.

Also, the "screenshot" does look vaguely Fremantle-ish but contains nothing to support the allegation either and looks suspect in other ways (630 pixels is a very odd screen width, and seriously, "Lastest"?!).

Re: Harmattan?
 

Well the last Thursday the 22nd was in January (2009), and the one before that was in May 2008. Unless they're from the future, in which case October 2009 it is ;)

I was just wondering about when the software was being worked on/leaked.

Re: Harmattan?
 

It is most likely a mockup. Nevertheless, as mockups go, it looks pretty realistic. Most UI elements shown in this image can be found in previous Nokia UIs. The title bar follows the style of S60e5 menu overlays and the icons are familiar too. The vertically scrolled display can be found in the Sports Tracker. Similar widgets have been shown in the upcoming N97 UI snapshots. So, yes, that may well be a Harmattan or even Freemantle app, from the look of it.

Re: Harmattan?
 

And if they come and deny it, it'll be clearly that they want to hide something! :D
They are trapped! We have them now! :D

Re: Harmattan?
 

If pages are stored locally, the only need for a connection would be to update data.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Quite frankly, the grip network operators have over American phone hardware is the fault of Americans themselves. Americans who are worried about network operators crippling hardware should put their money where their mouth is instead of playing the helpless victim.

Innovation has been stifled in America more than elsewhere because Americans have this weird idea that phones MUST be bought from network operators, that phones MUST be "activated". Neither of those things is even remotely true. Americans have got into the habit of always going to their network operator to buy a phone, and they are willing to buy phones that cannot be moved to other networks. Aren't there alarm bells ringing at that point? Would you buy a computer that only works with one ISP?

If you don't want to have any network operator involvement, don't buy your phones from network operators. You don't buy PCs from ISPs, you don't buy cars from fuel stations, so why the heck are you buying phones from network operators?

I have never ever bought anything from a network operator. All of my phones have been purchased from electrical retailers, just like computers or televisions or cameras. No activation, no network-locking, just pure hardware which can work on any network (or even without a network if I choose to use it entirely through wi-fi).

Nokia offers practically all its devices in unlocked form in every region, including North America, so it's up to the customer to buy unlocked devices if they want to avoid getting operator-crippled hardware.

Vote with your wallet, it's the only way to stop network operators crippling hardware.

To those who say unlocked phones are expensive: they're not. If you buy a phone from a network operator you're buying it in installments on credit, which is financially the same thing as buying an unlocked phone on a credit card. Quite often the unlocked phone turns out cheaper than the locked one once you add up all the payments, especially as unlocked phones are a lot easier to sell on ebay etc when you upgrade to a new model.

Re: Harmattan?
 

...perhaps your notion that "Carrier Subsidized" is just a weird idea of North American consumers could be argued best in another thread. :)

Re: Harmattan?
 

"Carrier subsidized" means different things to different people in different markets... it's not necessarily as bad as it seems to be in North America

For me, a carrier subsidized phone is the same phone I'd get from the manufacturers store, except its a lot cheaper (mostly: free), it doesn't work with another carriers SIM-card and it may have some applications pre-installed (or settings pre-configured).

I still can use it the same way as the original model. I am not forced to keep the applications and settings the carrier put on the phone. And I can even unlock it if I want to change the carrier (although this is usually done in dingy small stores in dark and narrow streets :D ).

So when I read "carrier subsidized", I just go "Wow, nice! My carrier will offer it for free!". Nothing more.

Re: Harmattan?
 

There are people in other regions who buy network-locked phones, but America is probably the only western country where people think they MUST buy network-locked phones.

It's not just locking that's dubious, the American market has had all kinds of things like "activation" and charging for received calls which simply wouldn't be acceptable to phone users in other markets.

And like I said in previous threads, only in America was Nokia forced to remove wi-fi from some of its phones at the behest of the network operators.

There is something really rotten about the US phone market, there's no proper competition and anti-competitive measures are just waved through by legislators and consumers alike. There's just total indifference and acceptance by people who really should know better.

Did you see the thread on the iPhone 3G with the title "$199 iPhone"? That shows a total lack of understanding what that price really means, it's actually just an initial payment in a long term agreement. If you buy an iPhone 3G without making an agreement, you're looking at a price closer to $500 - $600.

The one thing that's really hopeful has been Google's insistance that the auction on certain new frequencies should only take place on condition that all devices (even unlocked non-operator ones) should be allowed to use the network.

Re: Harmattan?
 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is NOT cheaper to buy from a carrier. You are fooling yourself if you think it is. As long as Americans (Edit: or Austrians!) continue to believe that carrier phones are cheaper or free, they will continue to support the carrier-dominated hardware market. They have to break free from this delusion if they want to stop carriers crippling hardware.

When you buy something on a credit card, do you think it's free?

No, because you have to pay it back in installments.

So why the heck do you think a carrier-subsidised phone is free?

You realise all you're doing is buying it at full price but in installments?

Re: Harmattan?
 

Forgive me for seeming obvious, but doesn't that look an awful lot like a KDE 4.2 desktop?? Or at the very least the widgets?

Re: Harmattan?
 

Provided that you are eligible for an upgrade.
Agree not to be "eligible" for newer upgrades for the next two years, and realize that any deviation from these terms is a violation of your "contract" with your "carrier". Requests to terminate your contract early will be honored provided you pay a $200 early termination fee. Your carrier reserves the right to blah, blah ...first born child... blah, blah...

Again, this is a side argument best served by a new thread. :)

Re: Harmattan?
 

I think the point about carrier subsidised phones (at least in the UK) is that on a 'pay as you go' phone you pay for the phone and then pay for your calls. If you have to buy X amount of credit a month every month for 12 months and buy a phone you end up paying 12X+Y. If however there is a contract that costs X per month, including the phone, it totals 12X per year. It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Why buy a PAYG phone instead of an unlocked phone though?

PAYG phones usually cost about the same as the same model unlocked, unlocked phones do everything a PAYG phone can do, but unlocked phones can also be used with all other SIM cards from all other networks on all other tariffs.

PAYG handsets are a total con, really. The only reason people buy them is because they think they have to buy them.


You're not getting the phone any cheaper on contract, all it's doing is spreading the cost of the phone across a year or two in monthly installments.

You can achieve exactly the same price by buying an unlocked phone on credit or bank loan, but the unlocked phone is a heck of a lot more flexible and easier to sell at the end of it.

Re: Harmattan?
 

yes and no. i signed my contract in 1998 or so IIRC. i can choose to buy a new subsidized phone every xx months (depending on how much my monthly bills are). i don't use my mobile very often, so my bills are low and it's every 1,5-2 years or so for me.

yes, of course i pay for it indirectly. on the other hand: my contract doesn't change whether or not i go and get a new phone. it's not that i want a new phone, find it subsidized model somewhere and then sign a contract to get it free. it's the other way round: i pay for it anyway, and i can choose to take one or not. (usually i don't, it's too much of a hassle to switch to a new phone. i only took 2 phones so far.)

you could of course argue that i could instead have a contract with lower rates that does not include this upgrade program. yes i could, but there's other things in my contract i'd lose then, too, and those are more important for me.


OTOH, none of this is relevant when discussing subsidized phones as such in this market. the point i was trying to make was that the subsidized version of the phone here is no different (or even worse) than the non-subsidized original, which, as far as i understand, is different from the situation in north america.

Re: Harmattan?
 

I'm thinkin' this is more on point...



Community developed?

>> http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/05/...-ad-supported/

Re: Harmattan?
 

i cant make head nor tail of that stuff...

Re: Harmattan?
 

Man, I wish I had the energy to get into this discussion last night, but my tablets don't work well as a salsa partner :P

The mockup is a bit on the weak side in some respects, but follows what we've already seen from S60v5 in terms of some of the layout and button arrangement.

The idea that all data will be linked is nothing new, and is as much as what Palm is doing with the webOS, and Android is doing (but is allowing carrier control of those linkages). The key here will be if Maemo will stay something of a community-led effort, or if Nokia will shift the effort towards carriers, allowing communities such as this to tweak and do with how they need. And if you think about it, making the OS a battle ground for carriers and users is a pretty nasty strategy to play both sides of the fence for.

In terms of widgets that talk right into the OS, and then link over those links - nice idea. S60v3 could have done it; v5 should be doing it. Maemo should have been done this as well. Ironically enough, the Sony Mylo does this already - its just not as open as Maemo.

I like the idea, but the screenshot has me thinking that form factors are going ot be toyed with heavily. Something like dual and folding screens (Nokia Morph Concept, OLPC 2, etc.) being the driver for making the OS as transparent as possible, and at the same time as ready for the user as possible without as much intervention. Its going to cause Nokia to piss off some developers because there will need to be some tight rules around "best practices" for certain types of software.

Don't be surprised if the idea of not having a browser comes up ;) It just seems too plausable when you are dealing with linked data like this that a browser (in the traditional sense) is just not needed.

EDIT: Oh yea, I doubt that anyone from Nokia will talk in this thread; at least for the time being. There is way too much that could go wrong in terms of efforts towards M5 if Hamarratan is spoken off too soon - even in an unofficial capacity. If anything, let's just let the Nokia employees and stakeholders be for this one, and enjoy the fact that Maemo is getting some of the Silicon Valley attention that will be needed for M5's devices and Nokia's efforts in the more mainstream techie audiences.

EDIT #2: Any developers looking at making a suitable calendar app that does more than just tell events, should really take this screenshot and go to town.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Quim you listening...

Take out anything related to ad-supported, location based advertising.

Re: Harmattan?
 

Ad subsidy? No thanks! I have to deal with ads and banners on my computer all the time which I understand are needed to subsidize the hosting of the web site. But there's no way I want to give up bandwidth or processing power to get bombarded with ads on my mobile device to subsidize what exactly? The OS? The cost of the device? I see banners and billboards and here ads on the radio and TV and it's a little over the top. Not on my device!

Re: Harmattan?
 

If a particular phone was ad-supported, then it makes sense that the ad widgets would be proprietary and non-removable, because otherwise who would pay for the hardware? Advertisers aren't going to sign up to a widget that the user can remove, and without advertisers the hardware couldn't be ad-subsidised.

If people don't want an ad-subsidised phone they would buy the non-ad version instead.

But this really isn't worth worrying about at all for many reasons:

First of all, like I said before, leaked proposals usually don't happen. We know that from previous leaks which mostly came to nothing, or were greatly altered. I don't think we should be worrying now about something that might not (and might never) exist.

Secondly, even if there was an ad-subsidised device, it would be released alongside non-ad devices. You can watch an ad-subsidised programme on television, or you can watch it without adverts on DVD. It would probably be the same sort of choice but for hardware.

Thirdly, Q4 2010 is a very very very long time away. Given the current severe economic instability, it's virtually impossible to say whether ad-supported hardware would even be viable by then. The costs of hardware are relatively predictable, but the revenue from advertising is extremely unpredictable, so no one knows whether such an ad-supported plaform would actually pay for itself because no one knows what the ad market will be like in 1.5 years time. Even before the credit crunch the advertising market was going down the toilet, and there is no way that any company would make hard and fast plans about ad-supported hardware so far in advance, especially in the middle of a recession.

Fourthly, the whole point of OSS is that anyone can use the software as they see fit within the terms of the licence. If the licence allows them to add proprietary stuff on top of that (such as ad banners), then it's okay for them to do that. A lot of commercial websites use OSS content systems with proprietary banner code pasted on top of it, how would this be any different?

Fifthly, it's not like Nokia is just sitting there doing nothing, sucking up all the work that other people are doing like some corporate vampire. The Maemo community includes Nokia, so far they've put a lot more resources into Maemo than they have taken out (it's not like the tablets sell in huge numbers). They've dished out hundreds of heavily subsidised tablets to developers, put full-time employees to work on Maemo and recruited more during a recession. There are even some Nokia employees who come onto Talk in their own spare time, and at least one ex-employee who comes to Talk despite not even working for the company any more. There are clearly passionate people working for Nokia's Maemo department, and Maemo wouldn't exist in its current form without Nokia's support (it wouldn't exist without the community's support either of course). Beyond just the legal licence terms, IMHO they have earned the moral right to use Maemo in conjunction with proprietary non-Maemo stuff if they want to, as long as they don't force proprietary stuff on people who don't want it.

I've criticised Nokia for a lot of things when writing on All About Symbian and elsewhere (especially some of their deceptive and restrictive licence terms for purchased content), but I think they've been pretty good to Maemo and stuck with it for years despite Maemo devices not selling too well. Nokia possibly wanting to use Maemo alongside proprietary software in commercial products doesn't negate the work they've done on the platform.

Re: Harmattan?
 

hmmm maybe I should sell ad space on liqbase :)

http://liqbase.net/liq.20090519_002913.lib.scr.png

nice zoomable spot in the bottom right :)

Re: Harmattan?
 

Not only this community, but Nokia has poured tons of money and time into open source projects like Linux (the kernel), Mozilla, BlueZ, DBus, GTK, and a dozen other FreeDesktop.org technologies. Maemo was not created with off-the-shelf parts. Nokia put an amazing amount of time into those parts to get them where they needed them and the whole open source community has reaped the benefits.

"Maemo Software" ;)

Make that: "Maemo wouldn't exist." Maemo is a Nokia product and without Nokia, Nokia products don't exist (saying it wouldn't exist in its current form without them is like saying Mac OS X wouldn't without Apple ;))<

Compared to what exactly? You keep making this assertion but I honestly don't think you're getting Maemo's position within Nokia's lineup. As far as I've been able to divine, the tablets are selling quite a bit better than Nokia planned (10x the initial estimate for the 770 from what I've heard) and Nokia's set to really begin pushing the platform with this generation. All this "aren't selling well" talk is silly both because it's highly subjective. Nokia's clearly happy, we're happing, so what's the problem?

(Been writting this post for the past four hours so appologies if it's a bit disjointed.)

Re: Harmattan?
 

GA, you do the long-compose posts too, hehehe...

Honestly, I can see Maemo being my phone/mobile OS in the near future. Even with Freemantle, I just don't really see much in the way of anything except webOS that excites me. Go figure, I'm becoming an OSS guy.

Where's texrat with his "hehehe" - isn't it time for one of those and a skillfully placed statement along the lines of "all the pieces for what Nokia is doing is already there."

These are exciting times :D

Re: Harmattan?
 

More like one of Qt experiments. Below screenshot was linked.

Although whole idea sounds (and looks) very, very similar to "social desktop" announced by KDE developers:

http://dot.kde.org/2009/05/01/social...-starts-arrive

I only wonder which way ideas are flowing KDE -> Qt/Nokia or the other way :)

Re: Harmattan?
 

At first when I saw statements like "ad widgets would not be user removable or customizable" I could not come to terms with one of the community profiting from using community developed FOSS as a billboard to sell products to others in the very same community.
Granted that one member may be responsible for creating the community in the first place.

Then I realized (while daydreaming during a work related meeting) that none of this has been verified yet. Even if it was all true and the intent is to distribute software to more people and and as a result promote safe systems that I feel comfortable using, why not?

After all, isn't that what Google did? ...and everyone knows that their ad content is not user removable or their web apps customizable. ;)

***

Still, I wish I found out via Nokia first. Perhaps these "leaks" should be made through this forum somehow. :p

Re: Harmattan?
 

Sorry, I only see two possibilities here:

Either this will be hacked or worked around. [See Apple]

or

This hardware will be so locked down that most of us wouldn't touch it with a ten foot (meter) pole. [See Archos]

Because of what I said above, this wouldn't be a different "version" of a device, this would be a completely different product. Regardless, it would most likely be from a company that I wouldn't be buying from.