What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

I'm digesting this blog post and comments about the community promoted préDevCamp and its clash with Palm and the Pre official launch: http://blog.gallucci.net/2009/05/pal...nt-get-it.html

And the continuation: http://predevcamp.org/2009/05/29/big...om-predevcamp/

Every company and every community has its own story and I'm not interested in nailing this one around the Pre launch. But it's worth looking at the elements exposed in this blog post (and other related you might have, please share) to see what we (the Maemo community and Nokia) are doing right or wrong, and what could or should be improved.

We have some elements in common to compare, and some differences that make the comparisons not 100% translatable: there is a Maemo 5 launch without a date announced, there is a Maemo Summit with a date decided but not necessarely linked to the launch, there is a possibility to involve some community developers and representatives in the launch but that would involve an NDA at least to keep the date confidential...

Opinions? Ideas? Not only for now this case of Maemo 5, generic ideas on how to collaborate more and better around public launches and developer camps are also very much appreciated.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Thanks for the post Quim. Just to add, I've been actively following what is happening on the Pre scene and this post from Palm sort of stabilizes the situation: http://pdnblog.palm.com/2009/05/a-predevcamp-update/

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

No. Please don't fragment the community by forcing some of us to keep secrets from everyone else.

To the extent that Nokia is prepared to be open about Maemo, please be open. To the extent that Nokia can't be open, just be silent.

Regards,
Roger

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

I don't see it as being a big problem for some people to be involved, if they want to be, and sign an NDA for Nokia's benefit.

E.g. developers of the Fremantle Stars apps being able to do some more on-device hacking and getting everything polished up for release at the same time as the new hw.

I should add that I'm not one of these people, so this isn't a self-serving comment! ;)

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Hehe, now you linked 'em :) Let the speculation begin!

Personally, I have nothing against NDAs. I think the problem with Palm Pre site was that its owners had definition of non-disclosurable materials somewhat different from Palm's. On the other hand, Palm's legal department overreacted: a stern warning would be enough in that particular case.

My suggestion is to collaborate extensively with software developers in the community who have proven that they are worth their word. I have no personal opinion on collaboration with bloggers. Also, NDAs should concisely enumerate types of information that cannot be disclosed. And, of course, I would strongly suggest to listen to hardware design suggestions from the community and implement the most wanted ones. No, Quim, seriously, how many times and how many people have to ask for that goddamn dpad, to make your hw engineers finally listen?

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Thank you.

The first thing that is different here may be Nokia’s acknowledgment through you that a public grass roots community is of value and participant motivation can be altruistic.

I say “may be different” because it is not always clear if you are posting as a member of this community or an employee of Nokia. *

From what I understand of the Palm situation is that Palm initially may have taken the stance that the “community” was attempting to compromise marketing decisions regarding release dates. The community’s initial motivation was to coordinate their events with the release of, at the very least, the SDK. Unfortunately this then provided the environment for both party’s worse fears as fanbois did try to extrapolate release dates from Palm’s responses, and Palm employees publicly questioned the motivation of volunteer community organizers. (I’m thinking at least one Palm employee is now looking for a job :) )

These things will happen. There will always be people trying to game the system. However just because they can, doesn’t mean the system is at fault or it needs to be abandoned, it just means both sides must be aware and vigilant.

Of course Palms newest response may be calculated to simply quell the disturbance until after the launch.

* Edit:
This is relevant as members of our own community may attempt to redirect this thread in order to find answers to unrelated questions that are important too them.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

I think involving trusted developers* and community leaders** in Maemo 5's launch is the right thing to do. The presence of a NDA on these individuals will not fragment the community - these people are already at the forefront of Maemo/maemo.org representation. They are the most passionate in their areas of interest, and have demonstrated time and again their professionalism and ability to represent developer/community interests.

If Nokia is considering being this open in a launch as strategic as Maemo and its devices, then I think those of us in the bowels of the ship will understand the need for NDA's.


* - Fremantle Stars, for instance
** - not limited to the Council

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Disclosing that you have an NDA can sometimes be seen as sufficient to be in breach of said NDA. The law is an ***.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

There is no specific law governing NDAs. When signing NDA, you promise not to disclose information explicitly listed in the NDA you are signing. Anything not explicitly listed in the NDA you can disclose, including the fact of signing the NDA or your relationship with the company.

PS: In fact, NDAs are usually mutual, so the company can't disclose your sensitive information too. This includes the amount of your pay, the cost of goods you intend to sell to the company, your API specifics, etc.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

After I read the links I was not so concerened about NDA's; however, what I saw was a missed opportunity by Palm to partner with the community.

From what I have been hearing about this it seems that the "lessons learned" could be that Nokia should have a "focal point of contact" with the community and standardized, well communicated expectations.

I think there was a communication failure as result of not having a proper partnership and the required trust, which was needed for such an undertaking...

Anyway... all those Devs want to go somewhere right?...perhaps this lost opportunity is someone elses gain....

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

I'm all for NDAs. I especially like NDAs that are very clear in their scope. An NDA is a legal document, and it establishes a contract between the people signing the document.

And I understand when employees must watch what they say about their employer (even beyond the scope of any NDAs they sign); they are being payed to be on a team, and they should be good team members by displaying solidarity with the team.

But, I think it stinks when community members, not bound by any such document, not on anyone's payroll, and completely unrelated to a corporation in any formal way (not appointed by the corporation, etc), are told by a corporation to limit their discussion and speculation because they are perceived to know more than the rest of the community. You either sign an NDA with someone that details what they can and cannot say, or you don't tell them sensitive information. Creating a perception that someone has inside knowledge, without providing any actual knowledge, puts a person in a really uncomfortable, unpleasant spot.

Not that I know anyone like this. Just thinking out loud. Speculating.

Talking about speculation, I hope Nokia releases the lead device at least several weeks before the Summit. If they don't, then any agenda involving anything other than the new device (for instance, Quim mentioned a desire to talk about Harmattan) will be lost in the buzz.

An announcement just before or during the Summit would really reduce the value of the event, and it would completely hijack the purpose.

On the other hand, waiting until after the Summit to release the lead device will make for a very dull and lackluster event.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Excellent post. My thoughts exactly.

I also believe the community should be involved, as much as Nokia will allow, in the launch of the Maemo device. This is an open source device, and open source is all about community.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

What isn't mentioned is what influence, if any did Palm's agreement with Sprint have in this.

Will exclusive agreements with network service providers limit or otherwise restrict Nokia's involvement with the community?

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

What kind of limitations or restrictions come to your mind for a scenario where those agreements would exist?

For us its clear that the success and probably even the basic existence of Maemo depends on our good relationship with the Maemo and the open source communities. Better relationships = better chances of success.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Go on, you can tell us - what do you know? ;)

Dave.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Well, I heard that the new Maemo 5 device will...

Wait, what's that sound? Sounds like a helicopter!

Hey, who are you guys? Get out of my house! Let go of

--
It's never what you know, it's who you know.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

Thanks again.



And to answer your question...





Because of the types of contracts most cell phone service providers have with their customers in the US, certain transition periods occur where customers can change providers without incurring an early termination fee or are able to upgrade their handsets and benefit from new subsidy discounts.



Starting about the time of the Motorola Razor and then reinforced by the timed release of Apples iPhone, a large chunk of the US customer base are affected by these cycles.

An important transition period is about to occur beginning in mid June of this year. Any ideas that a marketer can plant in a consumers mind regarding the future availability of newer features, improved benefits, or more importantly, exclusive deals with the manufacturer could delay a consumer’s upgrade decision and affect the timing of the next transition period.



In this case it seems to me that Sprint may have had more to gain or loose than Palm. Palms reaction may have been influenced by an agreement with Sprint.



I would think that an NDA between companies that each has many millions of dollars worth of assets would be a tad more effective and also might trump any agreement between one of those companies and a dude whose total net worth can be found in the basement of his parent’s house.

(Reposted because for some reason color tags have been added to my posts. The colors make the text unreadable from a dark theme. I can not edit out these tags, I will delete or minimize the first post instead...)

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

If true, this would be a good example of this kind of influence exerted on a manufacturer to control user communities by a network provider...

>> HERE <<

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

I never noticed all the difficulties Palm seems to be having with a community (or the other way round), probably because the Pre is too far away from what I want a phone to be to ever enter my radar.

Reading the blog posts you guys linked to makes me smile. We did have our fights with Nokia, yes, but it was never that bad, was it? More important, as somebody who came here in 2006 I really have to say that it got a lot, really a lot better since then. We should all bookmark those Palm-articles as reminders. - Somebody at Nokia is doing a good job working with the community. Right?

Oh, about NDAs:
I'm not sure. Really. I'm not sure how NDAs and "community" go together. I can live with (or maybe would support) single developers signing NDAs so they can have a new release in time with a product launch or play with unknown hardware features. Yes I know, developers are members of the community, but still it's a different thing for me. You'd have to be very carful not to lose all the openness we have because, with NDAs in place and enough people signing them, you don't need it any longer. (Nokia could have chosen not to make Maemo5 SDKs public but have all current Maemo developers sign NDAs. Would have been easier.)

So I just advise to be very careful about this... It's not a bad thing as such, but it could have unwanted consequences.

Re: What can we learn from préDevCamp vs Palm?
 

What can be learned?

In short, and something that both parties didn't realize:

1) Keep a cool head (i.e. don't go Hulk on something you don't fully understand).
2) Realize you are treating with a entity with different rules than your own, and be patient, avoid being dismissive/contemptous/assume too much in a negative light and again, keep your head cool.