Symbianites/Symbianation
 

I'm seeing a lot of posts lately from new members with a Symbian background. First of all, welcome aboard!

I then realized that if Maemo devices are being positioned in Nokia's upgrade path ahead of Symbian devices, we may soon be seeing even more new members with a Symbian background. Again, welcome.

I also realized that if in fact Nokia is positioning future devices this way, Maemo5 must perform tasks as well, if not better than any Symbian device...

The N800 and then the N810 are the first Nokia devices that I've owned so I have no first hand knowledge living day to day with S60 . This now leads to the purpose of this thread, a question for first hand users of Symbian devices. (all other healthy and productive posts are also alway welcome :) )

What is it that you can do (specific tasks) with an S60 device that you don't see how, or were not able to do with a current Maemo device?

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

sync my sms, email and schedule. :p

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

N-Gage (games)
Ovi Maps
Quick Office

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

i have e71 and n810.

Symbian is better at real world scenario although i love maemo and also n810 screen.

Symbian has quickoffice, even with free upgrade to new version now, i get emailed lots of excel sheets and need to check the numbers for sanity at least and quickoffice makes it possible

Integrated syncml client

Way bettter camera.

Printing support.



Sms, mms





Universal search app(emails, calendar' docs' sms' etc)Also, the pim suite on s60 is way better than the non-existant suite for maemo, although th

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Syncing contacts, calendar and notes easily via SyncML.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Things like:

• Easy phone calls
• Easy contacts and dates management (no syncml)
• OVI integration
• Games
• Easy photo or media sharing

For me, the main problem nowadays, is that the phone is always with me (the three things I always carry with me: keys, wallet and phone), so the question, is what can I do with my current Maemo device that can't be done with my phone? Since the answer keeps being nothing, I use more my phone than my N810...

But, the Maemo platform keeps being one of the most promising platforms for mobile development, so I hope that my phone gets replaced for a Maemo device soon.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Like quipper8, I have a N810 and an E71 which I tether it to for mobile Internet access.

What the phone has over the tablet (both software- and hardware-wise) :

• it connects much, much faster to Wifi networks (both open and WPA-protected)
  
• the predictive text entry function is way ahead and above maemo's (and the keyboard is better too :-)
  
• useful apps actually take advantage of the camera ! (barcode scanner, magnifying glass, OCR...)
  
• GPS actually works...
  
• has proper applets for things like Google Mail, Maps, Youtube...
  
• SyncML and a decent, syncable PIM suite !
  
• no-fuss, natural SIP calls
  
• Calcium (the best, quickest phone calculator in the world :-)

What the tablet has over the phone :

• 4" 800*480 touch screen...
  
• Web browsing experience (with Tear :-)
  
• community apps (Maemo Mapper, Canola, Tear...)
  
• games
  
• maemo repositories for apps distribution (S60 = total mess)
  
• open platform for hacking, existing skills (Linux, Python) reusable, community projects like Mer etc.

I'll update this post if more comes to mind either way :-)

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Syncing is easier
Finding applications that aren't beta-(still) is easier
Web browsing on the N97 is better, not so much so on my N95 or Surge, than my N800/N810 (including Tear).

...oh, and I can run my website off my S60 device, no-can-do with the same ease on Maemo (really hope to see that change though).

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Why can't you install a webserver in your maemo device? I think there are some options available...

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Hey, texr4t! Still remember ya from the Symbian Meetup. Good guy, he is. ;) I'm indoctrinating myself to Maemo from a blind perspective. From the looks of things, I'll be hanging around. I'm an avid Symbian lover, and look forward to how that experience relates to Maemo.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Dead easy indeed : just install Python !

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Sports Tracker and Nokia Maps.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

I see a lot of people comparing the two OSs namely application wise. That is not entirely up to the OS. A lot of good apps can be written for any OS.
The main thing here is to provide the ease of use. Maemo on N8x0 is still quite Linux guru oriented, and if Nokia wants it to replace Symbian, they need to make it much more user friendly, even if they upset the Maemo purists in the process. For a lot of things, one still needs to open terminal and do things manually, which is something not acceptable for an ordinary user.
The other important issue is of course OS stability. I had a few situations when I needed to reflash my N810, without any apparent reason. This is something that must not happen to ordinary users. The system needs to be bulletproof, as Symbian OS is today.
Thirdly, seamless application installation, since Symbian is quite good at this, and I guess apt based package manager will be able to provide this. I haven't been that informed on application manager in Fremantle, I'm geussing it's still apt based.
Those are in my opinion three key points where Maemo needs to be improved, as it is now on N8x0 devices.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

The trouble is that apps don't run isolated from the OS. This makes things easier (as this is how stuff works on desktops, too) and more efficient (no middleware overheads), but at the same time exposes the OS to more unpredictable situations (bad packages will always be a problem), and the fact that the users get root is not helping in this regard either. As long as we don't have at least a chroot separated environment for apps, stability will always suffer.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

No they don't of course. But Linux kernel has a nice way of dealing with apps that misbehave, using POSIX signals. This is enough on desktops, and should be enough for handhelds as well. Also, the device drivers need to be written in a way that a misbehaving app cannot crash the entire system.
The other thing is that apps should not be able to change system files. For instance, a while ago I had installed a vpn client on my N810, and tried connecting to work server just for fun, but it ended in changing the /etc/resolv.conf file, thus disabling any internet access. Imaging something like this happening to someone who's used to things just simply working!

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

One more thing that bothers me is that, when you install a lot of apps, system tends to become sluggish, and unresponsive, and quite slow. A restart helps, but after a while, it becomes slow again.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

If its that simple, then I need to see that my entire MWS install can be reproduced on the tablet. If so, Maemo 5 just got really interesting.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Yes, I was thinking about it too.. and perhaps webpy would help.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Do yourself a favour and add one character :

http://www.web2py.com/

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Same here; I pretty much agree with your compare, and find it complete.

What I like about Nokia E71 with S60 (SymbianOS 9.2) is that the default applications are solid and well integrated, and its compatible with the big evil world (example: Quick Office). An example which proves it isn't is the lack of OpenVPN support, and applications which assume a numerical keypad only for optimized usage. You can also install 3rd party applications many of which integrate well with simple configuration, but there is no such thing as a solid Application Manager. I also like the capability-based security of a microkernel-based OS such as S60, the fact it has J2ME, and that is has a large enough install base that corporations such as Google port their applications such as Google Maps to the OS. What they both don't have is good media management and usage like Apple products.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Something I'm shocked no one has mentioned is one handed and portrait orientation operation. Its what makes having such powerful hardware in your pocket at all times useful on the go. Smartphones rule NITs in that respect. The NIT isn't much different than a laptop, since you still have to stop everything and use both hands when on the go. Imagine a spirited SMS conversation while you're walking the dog or feeding the baby...

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Again about this subject?!?!?! You make it seem as if portrait mode is the holy grail, while landscape mode is useless.

I suggest 2 things:

1) Learn Linux desktop so you'll be easier comfortable with Maemo 5. Its more useful than ranting here. :D
2) Try Nokia Communicator / Nokia E90 for a while so you learn to appreciate the advantages of using landscape mode.

The difference between a laptop in a backpack or a phone (e.g. Nokia E71 or Nokia N900) in pocket is quite huge. These 2 compared to a laptop: laptop much bigger size, laptop much more horsepower (bloated for SMS and such), much more weight, much longer to take out of backpack, cannot walk with it in hands or stand with it in hands. Supposedly, you can walk and SMS with a Nokia E71 while letting out the dog. Well, I can too, but my definition of comfort is different. Meanwhile having such a nice big screen in landscape mode is perfect for remote administration e.g. via SSH.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

as much as I love maemo and appreciate the new n900, in the small office of about 20 people that I run tech for, we are going to be using e71/e63/e72 and not N900, although I WILL personally have a n900 for sure.

N900 is still an experimental super-toy IMO while e-series has everything needed for work out of the box. Also, there is no t-mobile 3g anywhere near us and t-mobile coverage is far inferior to AT&T in our area anyway.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Only in the baby scenario I could see using any device in portrait mode. Heck even with the n800 with rotation enabled so I read RSS feeds in portrait mode it's not that useful. I can't use it when walking outside because I will either bump into someone, walk into an object or the street, or trip due to the uneven pavement here. The only time I would see portrait mode useful would be on the Metro when I'm trying to use it standing up (while holding onto some railing). Not saying portrait mode isn't useful (see my Metro example) but I find the whole use the device in portrait mode while walking kind of exaggerated at times.

@nowave7

"For a lot of things, one still needs to open terminal and do things manually, which is something not acceptable for an ordinary user."

Hmm.. I might be wrong but I don't remember having to open up a terminal to use the n800 as Nokia had intended. Now if I wanted to install applications that developers didn't put in extras or needed to pull a dependency. Or to turn on swap or clone my disk then yes I would need the terminal. But again that's not within what Nokia originally intended the device to do.

You are going to have that problem no matter what Nokia does however. Because the people pushing the device to the limits don't care if you can easily follow them or not. If you want to follow them, then you will learn. If not, then just use the device as Nokia intended. And yes that's not user friendly, but not every developer cares to take out the time to make their installation or port user friendly for people.

But things like the user interface of say the n900 I do agree could be more user friendly.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Ask a better question.
what can maemo do that symbian can't?

maemo is based on linux, and has a strong history of openness and collaboration and barn building.

our principle strengths include

we are open by default, it is the norm, not the exception to find open source applications.
we have strong free applications written by members of the thriving community
we can share code with desktop apps - this makes a difference in how development commences
we can ssh in and understand the console and run standard tools and apps
we have the ability to replace anything we don't like and mould this device to our tastes, upto and including replacing the operating system.
our community is large and varied, from app specific stuff like canola or conboy to entire frameworks like qt, we have emulators and games and a whole cosmos of applications built for you.
we are not exclusionary - its entirely possible for a user to have 4 different toolkits on their device for different usage cases and app requirements.
we do tend to listen to feedback.

the platform openness extends to the symbian crowd who have the freedom to create/maintain/discuss apps which do as they like, and whilst they can say a lot in many threads, actions speak louder than words - get stuck in and do some coding.
open up and port your apps and show us how it should be done!

I, for one have been creating my liqbase apps and trying to sculpture my dream, I could not do it in WinMo, I could not do it in iphone, I could not do it in Android, and I certainly could not do it in Symbian.

the whole device has been assembled based in part on the communities goals and wishes - most of the developers of the system have been or still are active as users in the community and the maemo stack uses an impressive array of upstream components.

that some folks now at the final hour hear "nokia phone" and expect it to behave exactly like their existing devices is wrong, we understand its different and we will try to being some of your suggestions on board.

help the community developers - test, suggest, encourage and most importantly donate.
a lot of the guys here do things based on the good will that exists and an awful lot of the great apps which exist here simply would not exist without that.


we are maemo.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Its a relevant response to htis thead, especially from a Symbian perspective. 50% of the world's phones can't be wrong. One handed usage and the technologies that enable them can put Maemo in rare air that you may have overlooked.

I'm in the process of doing the first one, and I've had an E90 and every flagship Nseries and Eseries device ever made, not to mention countless midrange models. I appreciate landscape mode, and loved the E90, but didn't the E90 also support portrait and T9. I preferred the E71's one handed usage model much better, and the E90 was left on the wayside. And the E71 went on to be the third best selling Nokia smartphone of all time.

So please don't assume I'm inexperienced in research on these matters. I'm a longtime Nokia/Symbian promoter and S60 Ambassador. And guess what? I just attended an invitation only online conference a few days ago with Jussi Makinen, Maemo Marketing Manager (I think was his title) and several bloggers and media types, and guess what the biggest topic of conversation was? ASR and portrait mode support. So I'm just a prelude of things to come. It WILL be an issue for millions wanting to move from S60 to Maemo. It gets old, but having to use two hands to respond to an SMS does too.

But I guess you're just tired of hearing about it. I can understand that. Just remember it when reviews come out. I'll be one of the first there too.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

sorry double post. not sure how that happened...

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

i agree with you on this. imagine being at a meeting and your boss talking about the usual crap that doesnt involve a pay increase. having to use 2 hands to use to hands to the message t he girl you met at the club. not exceptable. lol

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

This boils down to personal preference. I would like ASR to be implemented but as a feature you can turn off if you want to. Never liked ASR on phone screen on the N97 expecially when you are about to receive a call and the screen keeps on rotating, wished I could turn it off.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

If they didn't intend the users to use the terminal, they should have left it out, like Android did, right?
On the other hand, it is true that most users are quite happy with the way things are now, and have no need to do anything with the terminal.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

This is a very important question for the future of the Maemo platform.

I'm somehow unhappy with it, though.

Here's why:

• You restrict it to current Maemo devices. It's obvious what's missing in current Maemo devices: voice telephony and everything that comes with it (SMS/MMS/video/...). I see no use in stating the obvious in this thread. Why not ask for Maemo in general, with a focus on the new version 5?
• Given the nature of Maemo, there's hardly anything that's not possible software-wise. So whenever somebody names a feature on S60 that he thinks is missing on Maemo, chances are that we know a way to work around that by installing 3rd party apps. I think a comparison should be done within clearly defined boundaries, and "what comes out of the box" would be good starting point IMHO... because this is what counts for the average consumer.

Anyway, here's things I do regularly on my current S60 phone that I think are of some relevance as "gaps" for current or future Maemo releases. I tried not to include things that a do only twice a year or so...

• Voice telephony (several times a week)
• Video telephony over UMTS (not via internet) with other 3G handsets (several times a month)
• SMS (daily)
• MMS (several times a week)
• Sync contacts and calendar with online service (both http://scheduleworld.com and my carriers own SyncML-server) (roughly once a month)
• One thumb usage for each and every function on the device, like being able to surf/chat/mail while I'm holding onto poles or overhead straps in the bus/subway. (I spend ~90mins each working day in this position, my device'd better be good at that.) (daily)
• Run various Java MIDlets (run: several times a week; install new: roughly once a month)
• Bluetooth tethering, being able to work with a BT keyboard (tethering: several times a week; keyboard: several times a month)

Another thing that I want to list extra (because it's not really a question of the operationg system alone... but the OS plays a big part) is the overall robustness of the device. How safe does it feel to carry the device in a pocket with keys and coins? Having to use some sort of extra protection is a no-no for something that should be a phone, so it better pass this test. Current S60 devices up to S60v3 do. S60v5-devices don't, and current Maemo-devices don't, either.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

My N97 never had a screen protector, and was scratch free. The materials should be similar. I'd still get a protector just in case for the screen, and if you can find one of those NIkon lens shield protectors, put a small piece on the lens to avoid scratches.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Good points...

I think at the time that I posted this thread Nokia had yet to confirm the full specs of the N900 and I didn't want the thread to get bogged down or hi-jacked with arguments that could not be supported. I also wanted to get a snap shot if you will, of what might be expected from this new device.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Is there a Wiki page on this kind of info at all?

Might be worth while to get a page setup so Maemo can duplicate some of these functions with decent OSS solutions in the future.
Sort of like a rough road map, or at least to highlight the differences in OS so everyone is aware instead of patching info together from forum posts.

And please don't mention how ASR needs to be the first thing on the list :p

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

I don't understand the responses from some of the community in regards to this. Do you deny that there is a use case for portrait mode? One handed operation is key to productivity when one wants to check quick status of calendar, email, etc. and quickly respond to a message or reminder. Learning Linux isn't going to let me be able to manipulate the device any easier in landscape mode. And landscape mode is great for web browsing, gaming, typing email, remote admin, etc. but you can't deny that there's a portrait use case.

I'm an E71/N810 user as well. Being able to pull the device out to check messages, calendar events and to answer calls one handed is part of what makes the device great. Walking around having to use two hands all the time in landscape mode is not efficient or productive for short tasks.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

I think if there is enough community push it will come in a firmware update, I don't think seeing it constantly in several posts along with heated views will speed this up. Patience is key in this area, I see this as a way to relax the tension that has been created from this topic.

Again me bringing this up doesn't help either ;)

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

Maybe we can make a "RANT: Maemo 5 Lacks Portrait Mode OOTB" thread, so we know which thread to ignore ;)

<shrink mode>I mean, seriously, I think it's okay to acknowledge the issue and to have a proper channel to release the frustration somewhere.. </shrink mode>

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

I don't really care about automatic screen rotation inn every app, but will really want it at least inn sms and email with an OSK

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

first they denied it, and now everyone's talking about it, not just me. surprised? Even I'm sick of it, only because the haters are getting annoyed, and I feel responsible. (Shrinks behind wall...)

Gorgon, we don't all agree, but its in the works. We just have to cross our fingers. We all use the devices differently, so its no surprise anymore.

I don't even want ASR now. Everyone else wants it. I want to be different.

Where's our LASER CATARACT REMOVER?? It'd be great for improving vision while on the train or the bus.

Re: Symbianites/Symbianation
 

I didn't know this was such the hot button when I responded to this post and haven't read the big threads. I got this from the "indifferent" thread and I'll take the discussion elsewhere.