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-   -   Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31125)

krisse 2009-08-30 14:34
Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
I've just done an editorial for Ovi Gaming on Maemo 5 and the N900, comparing them to Nokia's current Symbian devices from a gaming perspective:

http://www.ovigaming.com/news/item/1...emo_5_coul.php

The last sentence is very important, the presence of Maemo 5 is helping to make sure that everyone gets an upgrade, not just Maemo 5 users.

funpig 2009-08-30 15:13
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Agree! the price is bigest problem for Maemo phone. but N900 is good device for game app. other comments for your game development plan?

REMFwhoopitydo 2009-08-31 11:41
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
good article, my post from the comments:

"the n900 needs commercial apps/games to compete with the iphone, so the sooner nokia releases the Ovi store for its flagship mameo5 device the better.

there is also a fantastic synnergy to be exploited in that the new iphone, the Palm Pre, and the n900 all use the same Omap3 hardware platform, something which makes app/game porting far easier.

the n900 could literally reach for the stars by standing on the shoulders of the industry giant, after all, why would developers not port their wares provided there is a secure sales channel in which to increase their sales."

attila77 2009-08-31 12:39
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by REMFwhoopitydo (Post 318738)
there is also a fantastic synnergy to be exploited in that the new iphone, the Palm Pre, and the n900 all use the same Omap3 hardware platform, something which makes app/game porting far easier.
Actually, that's pretty much bogus. Hardware is just one aspect of the equation (and not even necessarily the most important). With the exception of OpenGL ES, it's actually easier to port something from a desktop x86 Linux to Maemo (or vice versa) than it is from the iPhone or Pre.

krisse 2009-08-31 13:00
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 318768)
Actually, that's pretty much bogus. Hardware is just one aspect of the equation (and not even necessarily the most important). With the exception of OpenGL ES, it's actually easier to port something from a desktop x86 Linux to Maemo (or vice versa) than it is from the iPhone or Pre.
That's interesting, in the early days people often talked about the CPU type being the key thing for porting to work but I suppose people used things like machine code a lot more back then.

Has programming become so removed from the hardware that the hardware type no longer makes that much difference?

attila77 2009-08-31 13:14
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisse (Post 318790)
That's interesting, in the early days people often talked about the CPU type being the key thing for porting to work but I suppose people used things like machine code a lot more back then.

Has programming become so removed from the hardware that the hardware type no longer makes that much difference?
Today, the OS has an increasingly important role and the applications are less-and-less kingdoms of their own that do as they please. Also, with the complexity of games and power of HW increasing, low level programming is used less and less, except for some very critical routines if at all. Hence the limits of OSes (and their SDKs) are a much larger factor than hardware, with a very few notable exceptions (like OpenGL (ES) version, floating point support).

krisse 2009-08-31 13:24
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 318805)
Today, the OS has an increasingly important role and the applications are less-and-less kingdoms of their own that do as they please.
...so in a way modern applications are more like extensions of the OS rather than self-contained programs?


Quote:
Also, with the complexity of games and power of HW increasing, low level programming is used less and less,
Yeah, that makes sense. Machine code seemed to be used the most on machines with the least resources, to squeeze every last drop of performance out.

attila77 2009-08-31 13:43
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisse (Post 318815)
...so in a way modern applications are more like extensions of the OS rather than self-contained programs?
Well, perhaps would be more correct to say they're more like regular apps. Meaning they make use of the libraries and functions present on a platform, and are not as keen on implementing everything from scratch themselves (as was pretty much necessary in the old days).

nowave7 2009-08-31 14:02
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 318830)
Well, perhaps would be more correct to say they're more like regular apps. Meaning they make use of the libraries and functions present on a platform, and are not as keen on implementing everything from scratch themselves (as was pretty much necessary in the old days).
But since both Maemo and Palm WebOS are Linux based, and that the hw -wise are the same, it is fair to presume the basic apps, should work on both devices (apps that don't rely on specifics of both devices). This could be extended to iPhone as well, since it also uses (if I'm not mistaken) ELF executable file format. The other issue of course are libraries, or specific pieces of hw. If an application depends on such things, it is of course still possible to execute it on different device, but it's not that straightforward.

EDIT: It seems that Mac OS X uses a specific executable file format, which is not ABI compatible to ELF, which is used by Linux, so no iPhone could not run even the most basic apps that Maemo or WebOS run.

GeneralAntilles 2009-08-31 14:32
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowave7 (Post 318844)
But since both Maemo and Palm WebOS are Linux based, and that the hw -wise are the same, it is fair to presume the basic apps, should work on both devices (apps that don't rely on specifics of both devices).
It's really not. The problem with both Android and webOS is that lock you into their respective userspaces since both Palm and Google decided to put together their own basically from scratch.

Nokia went the other direction and modified desktop libraries for use on a mobile device which is why it's reasonably straightforward to run regular Linux applications in Maemo and vice versa. The same is not true of either Android or webOS. For Android you need Davlik, for webOS you'd need a lot of hacking.

Texrat 2009-08-31 14:37
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Hardware abstraction layers have evolved into very powerful interfaces that have indeed pushed differentiation up into the OS layer. It was a natural consequence of the push toward hardware standardization (ie, plug and play) and Human Input Devices (HIDs) and USB-powered items in general would have struggled without that advent.

It's funny though to see Linux dragged into OS differentiation. Isn't that in opposition to the core goal? :D

attila77 2009-08-31 14:43
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowave7 (Post 318844)
But since both Maemo and Palm WebOS are Linux based, and that the hw -wise are the same, it is fair to presume the basic apps, should work on both devices (apps that don't rely on specifics of both devices).
Yes, but the point is the Pre officially does not support running native apps (can be hacked, but that's hardly a prospect a commercial developer can bulid a business on). E.g. if you are writing 'real' apps for Palm's store and WebOS, that application (game) will have no connection to Linux (and thus Maemo).

Quote:
EDIT: It seems that Mac OS X uses a specific executable file format, which is not ABI compatible to ELF, which is used by Linux, so no iPhone could not run even the most basic apps that Maemo or WebOS run.
The executable file format is not such a big problem, you can always recompile. However, this is the same as the point above - if you want to be part of official distribution channels, you must play along with the OS and it's development process.

nowave7 2009-08-31 15:22
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 318864)
It's really not. The problem with both Android and webOS is that lock you into their respective userspaces since both Palm and Google decided to put together their own basically from scratch.

Nokia went the other direction and modified desktop libraries for use on a mobile device which is why it's reasonably straightforward to run regular Linux applications in Maemo and vice versa. The same is not true of either Android or webOS. For Android you need Davlik, for webOS you'd need a lot of hacking.
Well that's what I meant when I said basic apps, such as hello world :D, that don't use anything fancy other than the libc/glibc, that is even if these libs are there in the first place (I honestly don't know), and that are binary compatible across all Linux distros. The major obstacle here are the libraries, which I presume are Android or WebOS specific. But in general one could make an app work in both Maemo and Android/WebOS, with a looot of work.

allnameswereout 2009-08-31 16:29
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 318873)
Yes, but the point is the Pre officially does not support running native apps (can be hacked, but that's hardly a prospect a commercial developer can bulid a business on). E.g. if you are writing 'real' apps for Palm's store and WebOS, that application (game) will have no connection to Linux (and thus Maemo).
Beign locked in is a relative state which one learns from experience. Its open (and unfortunately defacto) standards/protocols and integration which make the world go round.

Linux running on Android or WebOS or UNIX-like on iPhoneOS says little to nothing about compatibility with Maemo. However if you have a game on one mobile platform this could communicate with another using open standards supported in both devices (802.11a/b/g, TCP/IP, and a protocol used over TCP/IP). Ofcourse we haven't discussed the potential of Qt here yet, but that is long term. Will developers realize they could save a lot of time? Time will tell.

Also see it from other point of view. Linux on desktop has little market share. Open standards only used on Linux desktop have on the short term little to not relevance for most end users . Therefore it is difficult to help them understand the relevance.

In other words, if one is locked in and happy with that for one reason or another (work around it, don't even know it) one doesn't care about your stated point. Once the disadvantages of being locked in outbalance the advantages change of perception will occur. For that to realize the end user can be educated but thus far 'it is open source' has on short term not been a fruitful, convincing argument.

Futhermore compatibility layers are very important. WINE with DirectX compatibility layer running on Linux/X11/OpenGL is a great example IMO but its also for x86-32 only.

nowave7 2009-08-31 18:36
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 318868)
Hardware abstraction layers have evolved into very powerful interfaces that have indeed pushed differentiation up into the OS layer. It was a natural consequence of the push toward hardware standardization (ie, plug and play) and Human Input Devices (HIDs) and USB-powered items in general would have struggled without that advent.

It's funny though to see Linux dragged into OS differentiation. Isn't that in opposition to the core goal? :D
I've always wondered how did Palm managed to build a proprietary OS on Linux basis?! I mean, sure there can be some closed source portions, but the entire OS?! Or am I wrong here? According to wikipedia, the OS is based on Linux kernel, and is closed source with some open source components?! Really don't get how this is compliant with GPLv2?

lcuk 2009-08-31 18:47
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowave7 (Post 319018)
I've always wondered how did Palm managed to build a proprietary OS on Linux basis?! I mean, sure there can be some closed source portions, but the entire OS?! Or am I wrong here? According to wikipedia, the OS is based on Linux kernel, and is closed source with some open source components?! Really don't get how this is compliant with GPLv2?
they have named the presentation layer WebOS.

I have to say, ive heard many people ask the same thing about my system.
but it is as much an OS as liqbase (liqos) is.

nowave7 2009-08-31 23:16
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcuk (Post 319026)
they have named the presentation layer WebOS.

I have to say, ive heard many people ask the same thing about my system.
but it is as much an OS as liqbase (liqos) is.
No offense, but that by no means is an OS! It's just a wrapper at best! It would be like Samsung calling their TouchWiz UI an OS. Rubbish!

lcuk 2009-09-01 00:00
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowave7 (Post 319164)
No offense, but that by no means is an OS! It's just a wrapper at best! It would be like Samsung calling their TouchWiz UI an OS. Rubbish!
and that is what i said myself :)

the other thing, what OS does webOS run on?
its in exactly the same boat which was my point exactly.

REMFwhoopitydo 2009-09-01 08:59
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 318768)
Actually, that's pretty much bogus. Hardware is just one aspect of the equation (and not even necessarily the most important). With the exception of OpenGL ES, it's actually easier to port something from a desktop x86 Linux to Maemo (or vice versa) than it is from the iPhone or Pre.
sorry, badly phrased.

i do believe that a common baseline of hardware performance and a convergence around OpenGL 2.0 ES will make it far more appealing for commercial games/3Dapp developers to port their iphone products to other platforms.

nowave7 2009-09-01 09:34
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by REMFwhoopitydo (Post 319390)
sorry, badly phrased.

i do believe that a common baseline of hardware performance and a convergence around OpenGL 2.0 ES will make it far more appealing for commercial games/3Dapp developers to port their iphone products to other platforms.
If nothing else, it should me much easier than developing games for PC, PS3, and Xbox 360 in parallel. At least for the big names such as EA, or Gameloft.

nowave7 2009-09-01 09:53
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcuk (Post 319191)
the other thing, what OS does webOS run on?
its in exactly the same boat which was my point exactly.
But people still refer to WebOS as a real OS.
Still, it should not be that difficult to port some basic stuff on it, depending on the underlying blocks of course.

attila77 2009-09-01 10:21
Re: Ovi Gaming article on what Maemo 5 means for games on Nokia devices
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowave7 (Post 319409)
But people still refer to WebOS as a real OS.
Still, it should not be that difficult to port some basic stuff on it, depending on the underlying blocks of course.
Errr... WebOS applications are technically something like self-contained web pages. No glibc, sdl/gtk/qt or somesuch (that's supposed to be the appeal - you just have to know web technologies and you're good to go). Here's how a hello world 'app' looks in WebOS

Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN"
        "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<head>
        <title>Hello, world title!</title>
       
        <!-- Load the Mojo Framework -->
        <script src="/usr/palm/frameworks/mojo/mojo.js" type="text/javascript" x-mojo-version="1"></script>
</head>

<body>

        <!-- Make a fancy Pre-looking header -->
        <div class="palm-page-header">
                <div class="palm-page-header-wrapper">
                        <div class="title">
                                My First webOS App!
                        </div>
                </div>               
        </div>
       
        <!-- Make a fancy Pre-looking button -->
        <button class="palm-button" id="my-awesome-button">I'm an awesome button!</button>
       
        <!-- Just some text -->
        <div id="content">
                Hello, world!<br/>
                <img src="icon.png"/>
        </div>
       
        <!-- Footer -->
        <div id="app-footer">
                <hr/>
                © 2009 <a href="http://www.evan.pro/">Evan Coury</a>
        </div>
       
</body>
</html>


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