Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Australia
 

An amendment to the Australian Road Rules to take effect soon will make it illegal to use a phone for any purpose while driving other than to make and receive telephone calls. (Of course the rule also requires that the phone be either mounted to the vehicle, or that you make or receive the call without touching the body of the device*). This is under Australian Road Rule 300.

The result is that using Maemo Mapper or that other maps application for driving directions will be illegal - even if the phone is affixed to the vehicle.

The limitation appears to have been directed at things like web browsing (email, text messages and video messages are explicitly listed as not being phone calls).

This is despite the fact that a navigator device ("driver's aid") is explicitly permitted even if it is affixed and used in the same way as the phone (rule 299). This is because the restriction on phones is a separate prohibition that does not take into account the permissive provision for navigators.

The same problem does not appear to affect the N810 (or the N800 and N770 with a bluetooth GPS receiver), although it is possible somebody might argue that the N810 counts as a phone if it is configured to make and receive SIP calls and has an active Internet connection.

This amendment was agreed by the various jurisdictions in February this year, although it has only just received media attention.

Hopefully not too many people have ordered the N900 in Australia hoping to use it for this purpose. Given that its retail price here appears to be something in the vicinity of $1,000, it may be that not many people have.

* - Usual disclaimers apply - this is a summary of the applicable division that does not cover all the details.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

yeah i heard it too in the whirlpool forum, but isn't it okay if we put it in the car stand? i mean we can't use it to call, sms, etc,, but it will be okay if we use it as GPS and put it on the car stander... just looking at it to give us direction just like a normal GPS device..

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

N900 = mobile computer.

:D

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I don't get it - as long as you don't touch the device there shouldn't be a problem right? - turn on the GPS and leave it while you drive - you're an idiot if you try re-routing mid-trip while trying to drive at the same time.

You aren't 'using' it, it is just there

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I don't live in Australia, but at least in the states no cop is going to be looking so close to differentiate between a GPS and a phone. I don't see the big deal at all...

Of course, if you are trying to browse the web (it multi-tasks after all!) at the same time... Also if you have a passenger, just let them "use" it.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

lets just get the bloody N900 down here. Going to Nokias AU website has no info on the N900 - but N800 info is still available.

I just relocated from Denmark - to find out that gadgets gets released even later than I'm used to!

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

No. I know the newspaper articles were a bit vague on this, but the provision actually prohibits the use of a phone outright, then makes a limited exception for telephone calls provided it is either in a cradle or you are using a hands-free arrangement of some kind (again, summary, don't rely on this etc). The drafting of the provision is less than ideal, but that's what it does - use the N900 (or any other phone) as a GPS navigator while you're driving, and you can be nailed. This is about the law - not common sense. The two rarely have anything to do with eachother.

I know this was a joke, but in case anybody takes it seriously, that distinction will not get far in a court - if it has a GSM transceiver and can make phone calls, a court will not have a second thought about calling it a phone. You might even have a problem with a laptop that has a GSM card, but then as a practical matter you wouldn't be able to use that as a navigator because it's rather difficult to mount it in a cradle on the dashboard.

As long as it's in the passenger's hands and the screen is not viewable by the driver (passenger relays directions), that may work, but if you have no passenger that is unhelpful.

"Use" means "use" - if you are taking advantage of its functionality, you are using it.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Seriously, that will be challenged sooner or later, and hopefully revised.

Who's first?

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

People actually care about un-enforceable laws? come on... :)

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

It's enforceable, just facing some difficulty. Odds are it will be a secondary offense, discovered after the driver is pulled over for some other reason. Like driving with a busted taillight and marijuana in the ash tray. :D

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Funny, given TomTom HD Traffic uses GSM. Hmm, and some cars even have GSM+GPS on-board against theft. I suppose if the car also has on-board navigation both the alarm with GSM and the on-board navigation could be considered 'part of the car'.

Oh, how pathetic. Just make it a rule that if someone was distracted during driving (because of reading a magazine, make up, sitting upside down, brushing teeth, changing clothes in car (starts at 4:00)) he is responsible for any inconvenience he may cause...

Because while in a traffic queue people do all kind of pathetic things here in NL. Whole newspapers are read. I'm sure the same is true in Oz. And why not. As long as you sometimes connect again with the good ol' long queue...

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

The former does not constitute a probable cause, so the driver would still need to give consent because a search warrant would be required. So there is actually protection from this kind of fishing expeditions. Most drivers don't know that though.

Now, if the cop looks in the car and sees 'NOKIA' on the device, yes then he can argue Nokia makes (smart)phones not standalone navigation systems... :D

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

In the US it does. We have the Supreme Court to thank for broadening the term. :rolleyes:

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Since when? Is this outdated?

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

They do make those too.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

There are quite a few laws that aren't exactly 100% accurate, they are more designed to be used with a little flexibility.

Don't know whether it is a myth or not, but I heard there is a local by-law in York (UK) that you can kill a Frenchman from the city walls with a crossbow.... Crazy I know, why would you use a crossbow and not a long bow ;-)

But my point is I'm not sure how enforceable that would be anyway, if the device didn't impair driving.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Tex, you wouldnt be speaking from experience about that marijuana in the ashtray would ya? LOL

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Nope. Never smoked it. No problem with those who do though.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I highly doubt that this is the case. The law is meant to stop people SMSing or taking photos with their phone (i.e. touch it). It is not meant to stop the phone sitting on your dash, effectively running a screensaver. By your definition of 'use', you are 'using' your phone whenever it is turned on - because it makes you available for others to call, therefore providing functionality. I agree that people should not interact with their phone when driving, for whatever reason. but following a preset GPS route does not require interaction.

Besides, how is the cop going to know? if you have your phone in a holder on the dash (which is legal). Its not like he's going to notice unless you start fiddling with it, rerouting while he's handing you your speeding ticket (which would be extremely stupid)

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Really, it comes down to what the definition of a phone is, and that will likely be written in the law. If someone wants to link to the actual text, our speculation might mean something, otherwise this is really just ranting.

IANAL (and certainly not an Australlian one!), but I also think there might be a case made for turning off the cell radio and then arguing in court that it was not a phone - that functionality was specifically disabled during the time in question. If you have a friendly magistrate, you hopefully get off scott free. If not, you can keep arguing your case and maybe you make some good law!

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I never have either. LOL I seriously couldnt keep a straight face on that one.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Soon you're in Amsterdam... :D

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Someone should open a White Castle in Amsterdam. lol

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

Actually I'd like to try some of that Rakia... :D

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I believe its currently only looking at being done by the state government of Victoria, I haven't heard of it being talked about with any other state or territory's here.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

You can doubt it all you like, but it doesn't matter what was intended unless there is an ambiguity in the law, and there isn't an ambiguity just because you don't agree with the effect

That really depends on what "taking advantage of" means doesn't it? While you do have to apply words as they are in the statute, taking a similar approach to other words used to help explain the statute is not a good idea. The real question is, leaving the law aside, would a person who saw somebody doing whatever they are doing with the device (including listening to it, looking at it, or following their directions) say that person was using the device?

If you are actively observing or listening to its output, you are fairly clearly using it by any ordinary use of the word. Having it sitting idle, not touching it, not observing its display, not listening to output from it, an ordinary person is not going to say it's being used.

The problem you seem to have here is you're trying to redefine "use" to get the outcome you want. At first by narrowing it down, then when you're told you can't do that, by stretching it. You can't do that. "use" is an ordinary word (although some things have been specifically *added in* in the statute, it still covers all things within its ordinary meaning) and is read in its ordinary way. You can't seriously be suggesting you wouldn't think you were "using" a standalone personal navigator if it was dishing out directions that you were following.

Incidentally, one of the specific inclusions in the word "use" in the new rule is "looking at anything that is in the phone."

It it not, although there is a specific exclusion for "a CB radio or any other two-way radio" which (to the extent that it can apply) is superfluous.

IAAL, and an Australian one. I would not advise doing that. My advice to a client would be "Don't use your phone as a navigator while driving."

It's an agreed amendment to the Australian Road Rules - Victoria's just (apparently) the first to implement it.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

@trollo - could you please paste the text/a link to the text of the amendment?

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

That is East European and generally not sold here :p alternative is grappa. Or ask Attila to bring a bottle you'll be hooked in no time :D don't forget to shop tax free!! :cool:

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I find your lack of faith disturbing *force choke*

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I'm not trying to redefine 'use' at all - it is a very vague term, that's my point.

If you want to get very technical and anal about it, which you apparently do...

"looking at anything that is in the phone."

Read that sentence again and tell me what 'in' means - I highly doubt that this is a direct quote, even though you happily presented it as one.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

I'm pretty sure the local governments can still ignore rules if they choose, hell the NT had unlimited speed limits on the Stuart Highway for years before being enforced by their local government.

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

This has spread to NZ?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/29...e-illegal-Govt

Bloody iPhones :p

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

At least in NZ they have an amendment to allow phones to be used as Satnav devices, courtesy of a clued up politician (I know, contradiction)

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

heres some questions you could pose to your transport minister...Common sense prevails - looks like the iphone crowd helped in its amendment

Re: Using mobile phones (like the N900) for in-car navigation to be illegal in Austra
 

You may not be aware of it, but you are definitely trying to do that. Any vagueness you see here is a product of your desire to exclude from the term "use" something that people would ordinarily understand to be "using" the device.

What you describe perjoratively as anal is me interpreting the law based on actually being a practicing lawyer in the country where the law was passed. It's not a matter of being anal, it's a matter of having the training to know how statutes are interpreted by the courts and applying that to the words in the statute.

Again, it's an ordinary word. Perhaps it will assist you if you read in the word "stored" in front (for illustration - don't assume the resulting sentence means exactly the same as that in the statute).

I would suggest you go and look at the amendment before you start throwing around accusations that I am being dishonest. Google will find it.