Closed Source Packages in Maemo, why?
 

Ok, it's decided, I will not buy the N900.
I am the only one who finds it outrageous that Nokia makes proprietary software into an operating system that they say it's Free?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Awww.. It's not so bad. We still retain the freedom of choice, remember?

}:^)~

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

There's no conflict at all between "closed source" and "free (as in beer)".

Nor is there anything wrong with hybrid/mixed-source platforms.

Unless you're Stallman, in which case, all things should be free (as in speech AND as in beer), and personal-hygiene should be optional and smell like bunny farts. But, for us normal people, there's nothing wrong with clearly defined hybrid platforms ... nor bathing.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

You are perfectly free not to buy it.

Nokia is not saying that the operating system is "Free". Open source does not equal "Free", and open source does not also mean 100% open code.

If you are waiting for a device that will be "100% Free", and something that will be of relatively high quality, my humble prediction is that you will need to wait A Really Long Time Indeed.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Nokia is like Canoncial: Free software to save money, and proprietary software to keep users in a certain form of submission. Hypocrites.

Nokia is a manufacturer of hardware and service provider they can therefore make a profit with 100% FOSS.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Depending on what you mean by "open code" (open source vs open standards), I disagree with that part.

open source == open source (100% of the source code is available). Otherwise, there's no point in calling it open source.

If some, but not 100%, of the code is available, then you've got a hybrid platform, not an open source platform.

For example, Google Android is open source (100% of the code is available and re-usable, as far as I know). But, HTC's version of Android is NOT open source; it's a hybrid open/closed source platform (the parts they took from Google are open, but their Sense UI code is not).

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

It is a coin with two sides - as the Capt'n (ironically) remarks, we still get to choose ;) More than others.

I can already see loosing parts of the functionaliy compared to my N97 with some limitations (like e.g. no portrait, issues with syncML, poor OVI integration, no turn by turn navigation). And yes, it will become complete over time.Until EOL the product will be perfect (like any NSeries with v30 FW).

Maybe I shouldn't have handed the E71 to the wife - but who's the geek, then? :rolleyes: Just kidding, of course it is a must have :)

BTW, did you already vote for Browser portrait mode?
http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...reen_rotation/

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Normal people? normal people?

They are people like RMS that created the Free Software and their communities. And now that big multinationals have seized upon the concept, we should be imposed proprietary software, continue to contribute, keep quiet and suffer?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

No one is imposting proprietary software upon you. Not even Microsoft.

And just as you are free to choose your platform, free to contribute to open projects, you are also free to contribute to non-open projects. That's what freedom really is: the freedom to choose. To choose whether or not you'll use open vs hybrid vs closed software; to choose whether or not you'll contribute/write open vs hybrid vs closed software. And just like you deserve those freedoms, so do other people. Including the people who run corporations of all sizes.

(and, really RMS is anything but normal, in both the good and bad implications of that statement)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Well.

Naturally there is a long answer that doesn't need to be written here, but naturally there is interest for Nokia so that we don't spend Much Time and Effort in creating something that then some company from Asia could just create a slightly cheaper device, put the same piece of software there (the "100% FOSS Maemo") and make a profit. A hybrid model gives much back to the open source, gives opportunities for developers to do what they want on the platform while also giving some reason for a company to start utilizing open source in their products. Everybody benefits. Even Linus T. understands and supports that. ;) (Recall the GPLv3 discussions.)

But anyway, I'll stop on commenting on this more on this thread - after all, this is about portrait mode support, not about fundamentals of open source.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I don't understand the surprise with the Media Player. It has been closed source since the first day of Maemo. In Fremantle the engine is oss generic (MAFW) and the player UI is closed, so there has been opening progress.

I will convert https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1235 in a brainstorm proposal so we can see the potential and preferred solutions.

Now, please move the topic back to portrait mode.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

While I understand that Maemo OS is billed as open source that may not mean that all other components and apps on top of Maemo will also be open sourced.

So the Music player not being open sourced is highly likely and does not conflict with the fact that Maemo is open sourced.

If I develop an application for Maemo, I can close it down and not have it to be totally open. The Music player just happens to be integrated and built in. It need not be also open as the OS underneath.

Google has built up its infrastructure and its search universe on open source too, but that doesn't mean Google's code is all open sourced. No way.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

@Ragnar
And now, yet this principle of **** that is that of "Open Source but not Free (af free Speech)"

And freedom of the user? And equality of users?

"Useless, they are only there to pay and be subject to the richest ..."

Grrrrrr. :mad:

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

As my personal opinion, Maemo is not some ideological struggle. We don't open source because of ideology but because of the pragmatic thought of it being the best method for us to make compelling experiences and products for our customers. That's how things should be, as far as I see. Open source is utilized because it is good, not because it is some holy crusade. For me that is the far more interesting angle in Maemo and open source: balancing openness with interests of a multinational corporation. Sticking to absolutes is easy but easily gets you nowhere, making compromises is hard but it can get you somewhere. Making something where everybody, including Nokia, wins.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

(someone please spin off this oss discussion since it is interesting but I don't feel like keeping it as OT)

korbe, releasing distributions that are completely free is good and accomplishes an important role in the free software community. However, in order to distribute free software someone has to develop it and contribute it.

From this point of view have no doubt that Nokia is one of the main contributors to the free desktop, and Maemo has played a big role on this. Ubuntu and others benefit from these contributions, just like Nokia benefits fom the work contributed by others. Measuring the "free software value" of Maemo based only on the percentage of open source code in the official releases misses a big and very important part of the picture.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

And democracy is a utopia also?

No, it's a necessity. Like Free Software, especially if it is related directly to our private life or private data.

In addition, Nokia has absolutely nothing to lose by doing 100% Free Software.

Except to keeping the user in a form of submission unhealthy oxploiting > exploited, or to hide things unmentionable, I see no reason to make proprietary software.

@ qgil : Yes, but I can not trust in a software whose operation is hidden.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

True.

It does actually:

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

I thought I already touched on that. Quoting my previous answer,

"but naturally there is interest for Nokia so that we don't spend Much Time and Effort in creating something that then some company from Asia could just create a slightly cheaper device, put the same piece of software there (the "100% FOSS Maemo") and make a profit."

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Ok, you are right. Sorry about my definitions of words. They weren't really good. I was trying to say that "an open source operating system does not also mean 100% open code". I am not trying to redefine the meaning of open source. :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Interesting. Do you have a business plan backing this assertion?

Fair enough, but Maemo and Nokia have been very clear since the begining saying that full open source is not the goal. It's your sudden surprise what is surprising.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Agreed. Ever since he's come to TMO, we've been telling him that while yes Nokia's been opening more and more, we already knew it wouldn't be 100% open source... so I think he's just trying to generate a negative reaction to try to pressure it into happening.

Seems that some people don't understand the economics of working within software development. "Open source" does not mean "free ride" for companies using it.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Eagerly waiting for your DTrace analysis... :p

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

@Ragnar: Nokia is a manufacturer of hardware: it is there that can create unique features and inimitable quality.

@qgil: A businessplan?
- Nokia creates a material with incomparable quality.
- Nokia creates innovative features with hardware that copyists Chinese fail to imitate before Nokia did so the following model.
- Nokia provides innovative services with open and documented protocols for all software to be compatible with these services (more customers).
- Nokia make Maemo 100% FOSS than other manufacturer can use and evolve it. Plus there will be a contributor to different horizon for Maemo, better it will be

So Nokia's customer loyalty through quality, freedom and opportunity to fully engage in Maemo to all levels to ensure revenue.

We therefore apply the same principle as Trent Reznor for his music band NIN:
- Establish links with the fans.
- Give a reason to buy.

I am not surprised, I'm just very disappointed.

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

What, in the millions of dollars a year Nokia pours into dozens of full-time open source developers?

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Canonical develops hardware? Canonical develops proprietary software? Nokia sells end-user products. A full, end-user ready package consisting of hardware, software, and service. Canonical only sell service. Btw, the hardware isn't open source either. There is a lot of proprietary firmware running. Isn't that a big deal for you?

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

No, just disappointed not to have a 100% FOSS mobile-PC/Smatphone with equipment capable of competing with the Palm Pre and the iPhone in my pocket. Especially for the price it costs.

But I am still waiting to see the list of proprietary software to determine if it is possible to create alternative Free Software and a script to "purify" the N900 (uninstall proprietary software and install alternatives FOSS) .

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Yes, as a consumer, before I spend my money, I always look for products that are 100% OSS and disregard its feature set totally. As long as it's fully OSS. :rolleyes:

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Keep your eagle eyes on development of Mer for N900... :)

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

Canonical make proprietary software:
- UbuntuOne (sever side).
- Landscape.
- Launchpad is remained longtime proprietary.

Proprietary firmware is a problem too, but the source code of firmware can understand how a device works internally and there is still no viable economic model for material "Free" (for this moment).
But project looking to this side: Hackable-Device

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Well. Nokia makes great hardware. I love my E71 for instance, it is a great piece of hardware.

But kind of polarizing, in 5 years the hardware designs will converge and every piece of touch screen hardware will look like the black monolith from 2001, or an advanced version of the smaller monolith from a fruit company: it's a big thin square with a screen as large as that what the device.

Ok, some might have a hardware keyboard, some not.

Then differentiating with hardware becomes very very hard. The Nokia black box might have better materials and might be one millimeter thinner, but our worthy competitors can do something nearly identical. OEM manufacturers already can do hardware that is virtually identical to brand name hardware.

Clearly, differentiating with hardware is not enough. The software is the thing that counts, not the hardware. People do not buy the iPhone for its hardware (not that there is nothing wrong with it), but for the software.

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

i don't like using this acronym, but LOL! in todays world your utopia is pretty much impossible.

and nokia does business, not charity. creating fully open source media player for maemo would be really huge donation (of money & resources) to every manufacturer using maemo in their devices. plain economics and pure competition. Usain Bolt doesn't do cartwheels during 100m sprint, does he?

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

It's noted. :)

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

-_-'

No need to create a media player from A to Z: if it is a FOSS, Nokia may use the source code to other FOSS.

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

And it's not only better hardware, but also 'worse'.

A buzz arises out of maemo5, and you get hardware coming out with a similar sized screen with half the resolution, a smaller processor, no FM, a mediochre camera, as someone making a '3g' mobile in china has stuck maemo5 on it instead of their normal OS.

But at half the price.

Suddenly many potential users start wondering if they can actually see the difference between 320dpi and 160dpi, and if they in fact need the shiny, if they can run all the apps that run on the 'proper' version.

Re: Portrait mode use cases
 

apt-get source ubuntuone-client
apt-get source landscape-client got me the source.
..yeah, but... not anymore. Linux kernel was also once proprietary. Same for Sun Java.

That server for Landscape and/or Ubuntuone are not open source means nothing. When I surf WWW I get HTML spewed by closed source PHP code. Doesn't mean my OS is suddenly running closed source software. I mean... do you use MSN? MSN server software is closed source. Does that make your Debian running only free software and a MSN client suddenly running closed source or proprietary software? No way. It does use a reverse engineered proprietary protocol, and the server software is indeed proprietary. But that doesn't make you run proprietary software.

So actually... your examples suck... :o

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Barring the ideologic reasoning is there any other reason why media player open source is in advantage of Maemo users?

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Being able to use codecs that nokia cannot legally distribute.
I have questions if this is a widespread draw though.

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Wouldn't this be a thing for the backend that it uses? I believe that (MAFW) is open source.

Tuomas Kulve did a good job with this (adding ogg-support to Diablo's media player) and he seems to have done it again.

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Yes, 'cause I'll want to change it. I don't want to brainstorm, I just want to change it.

Re: Closed Source Packages in Maemo
 

Not worth the financial investment and years of development, just to give away the software for other companies to use it from the day of the release.