Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Now that we have hundreds of N900 testers it's a good time to settle on something that we have discussed many time in the past: the big majority of users should rely on the maemo.org Extras repository and the official Nokia repos only.

Anybody installing extras-testing, extras-devel, a third party repository, a single deb package or any combination requiring openng xterm is not a pure end user anymore but a tester. At least s/he should know! So please think it twice before posting, forwarding, reposting and recommending anything out of the stable repositories at nokia.com and maemo.org.

Two very concrete examples that current N900 users can suffer already today:

- Full memory because of apps ignoring the recommendation of installing big files in the internal memory.

- Significantly shorter use times because of widgets and apps not paying much attention to power management.

The Maemo community has put a big effort creating a quality assurance process in order to guarantee certain standards. Advanced users aware of the risks of unstable software are helping evaluating whether apps are ready for end users or not. Don't bypass all this hard work by making popular buggy software. At least not without a big warning.

End users might be happy in the short term with your links and tricks but the risk of making their Maemo life miserable are high if they are unaware of the possible consequences. Instead, giving feedback to the generally goodwilling developers will help them fixing the problems and offering the software end users want without hacks, tricks and dirt under the carpet.

BIG THANK YOU for reading this, propagating the message and helping out.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

should similar warning be put into apps-section and make it sticky? And in general one or two sticky threads to essential sections wouldn't hurt when people start getting their n900s

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Agree. I think this is a VERY important point and should be written all over the Extras repository. Even though maemo has been available for years, now is the time for the "firsth impression" for it.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

This is a very important point but I'd say the most of the applications in Extras right now aren't using the internal memory.
Sould it be a MUST in the QA list? IMHO it should be (applications and specially dependences).

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I agree and ( although not yet aimed at the N900 ) to that end I have just added the following to the top of the first post of my announce thread:-

WARNING

Feel free to play with this software, but be aware that this is software under development. Do not install software from either Extras-Devel or Extras-Testing unless you know exactly what you are doing.

Unless you are a developer or an experienced tester you should not have these repositories configured.

Until informed otherwise all software refered to in this thread is suspect and may seriously effect the utility of your device. Although not dangerous to it physically it may seriously affect the utility or battery life of your device in lots of as yet, unknown ways.

It may be worth mandating something like this for all.

Rick

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

On behalf of Teddy Bear Users everywhere, thanks for this. I am not (yet) at a place where I'd know what to do if I installed something beta and it went err... belly up. ;) If I volunteer to test something, I want to now that's what I'm doing - and have fairly quick access to the developer in case the whole thing hangs and I don't know what to do!

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Nothing here sounds unreasonable, but I hope that developers won't shy away from introducing adventurous users to less stable programs/unapproved-but-useful-hackery. By all means, put up disclaimers that a solution for extras-testing isn't yet perfect, and may even have unwanted side-effects, but if you think half a solution from testing is better then no solution at all, please share.

One of the (many) things that I think makes the N900 better than the iPhone is that there's a community that treats users like adults. Users don't need to be nannied and told "oh you can't install that, it's much too untested". From time to time users do need to be told "that's probably a dumb idea since it will drain your battery in 2 hours" and speaking for users, I'm always greatful for the warning, but in the end, I'm going to make my own decisions about what packages/repositories/debs/etc. to install or enable.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

In German:

Warnung


Dieses Programm befindet sich noch in der Entwicklung. Installieren Sie bitte keine Programme aus den Quellen Extras-Devel oder Extras-Testing, solange Sie sich nicht genau über die möglichen Auswirkungen informiert haben.

Diese beiden Quellen sollten nur von Entwicklern oder erfahrenen Benutzern eingetragen werden.

Sofern nicht anders angegeben, kann nicht ausgeschlossen werden, dass alle in diesem Thread erwähnten Programme die Funktionsweise Ihres Gerätes ernsthaft beeinträchtigen könnten.
Obwohl die Gefahr eines Hardware-Defekts äußerst gering ist, könnten die Funktionsweise oder die Lebensdauer des Akkus auf unvorhergesehene Weise Schaden erleiden.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Personally, I hate those kind of warnings. They are addressing the issue from the wrong (=negative) angle.
Suppose I'm not a developer, I'm not an experienced tester and I really don't know what I'm doing. How is that ever going to change if I follow warnings like this? The only way to learn what is going on is to ignore warning like this and try it anyway. The only way to become an experienced tester is to test software which actually has bugs, etc.

The warning should really be phrased positive, e.g. "Feel free to play with this software, but be aware that..." And add the 'Restore factory image' instructions in there, doing so will scare more people away then any warning will. ;)

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

You have been warned! :)

Isn't it ..and may seriously affect the utility of your device.? Or ...and may have serious effect on the utility of your device.? Or impact?

Is such notice not shown in Application Manager already?

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Well, I kind of agree, as noone really reads the full text of these warnings when they install things. Have a short, simple text in plain English / French / German / etc. would probably be sufficient.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

That invites curious, innocent users. If they are curious they may want to play in SDK/VM, get a second device, ... and these options they can ask and/or read about here.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

This notifications should NOT be seen every time you INSTALL a program (I really hate all the notification windows which tell me nothing but legal stuff). This is a message that should be clear BEFORE you can START to install a program. Ie. if you activate extras repository (or are all the activated repositories mixed together, and you can't see the source?) on your phone or come to the Extras -page.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Hmm, any non-Nokia source showed a disclaimer warning in previous Maemo versions.

I think you're confusing Extras with Extras-Devel. The subject title is talking about innocent people replacing Extras with Extras-Devel.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

And this disclaimer I would not like to see ;)

Yes, I ment the Extras-Devel aca "Maemo.org extras-testing" -repository. This is explained very well by Peter Schneider in this video (7:37):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxjfRE7GLno

I understand the concept but the terminology is still new to me ;)

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Well, it is now shown when you want to enable repository but its legal disclaimer. Not quite informative like the one suggested in this thread.

Good morning :p

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Original post edited with suggestions by allnameswereout and AVee.

I am by no means suggesting that this warning be displayed anywhere other than on the first post of a thread advertising new-unfinished software.

I would rather frighten off a prospective user of my app(s) than risk users installing and then regretting it and putting them off using my software for life :) These apps will after all ( hopefully ) end up in Extras and be visible to all.

Rick

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but which repositories are enabled by default in N900? And which ones are "typed in", but need enabling?

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I made the "mistake" yesterday, I enabled the dev repo and started installing programs, this, that, that, this.... The memory information tool says I have 2GB of memory, so who cares?
Until the moment that my phone froze.. 0 bytes free in root.. Package manager not working anymore (couldn't remove applications).. Now what?

For a customer that pays hard money for its phone this would be a nightmare, wouldn't it?

Luckyly I had installed SSH and Midnight Commander, so I could starting cleaning up the mess.

Resume: this would really happen, warnings or not... The question is, how can we as developers/testers prevent this from happening? If Maemo gets mainstream in a few years this simply may not happen.

The question I have is: why is the package manager not smart enough to refuse to install applications in the wrong location? (with a special developers mode that you need to enable by shell or something) Or simply correcting the install path.. It would force the developer to think about and install in the correct location.

I personally hate the fact that Linux puts all applciations in the same few directories... But that's another story.

Fair?

Wkr,
Joep

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I only know what the experience is with the SDK, and from the SDK experience i'd say there is also a huge lack of polish and quality in the presentation of apps that are in the repository. For example, many are missing sufficient descriptions.

I realize that's a separate issue, but it's also part of the user experience that isn't going to impress the new crowd.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

If one is determined to install unstable software, he will do that no matter what disclaimers there are. I bet that even when disclaimer is negative, there will be enough testers (at least guys who now own n8x0s and are part of community and somewhat familiar about maemo).

Positive warning sounds like sleazy car salesman that sells you $2000 car for $5000 and gives wrong contact info so warranty is void before your taillights disappear. ("this is just formality to sign here, the text doesn't matter, not worth reading it through. Just sign! ... I promise there will be no problems.")

It totally is the wrong way to get testers. Luring innocent fools to get their shiny new devices to a point that a reflash is needed is not the publicity maemo community needs...

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I'd like to add:

You've only one chance to get users convinced that it doesn't matter that their phone runs Linux.
I have experience with a lot of Linux based devices in the past. First thinking: wow you can write your own software blabla.. But really, there was no one that was really open, always changing APIs, not stable... Bottom line: I'm not an average customer, but even I sold all these devices almost directly because they were totally un-customer-friendly.

This is not what an average customer want. Customers ARE NO BETA TESTERS, they pay hard money.

If we want to make (money with) nice applications in the future, based on Linux, then we need to remember this I think.

Remember: we're Maemo, we're the (Linux) future :-)
If we do it well we can beat Microsoft and all propriatary OSes in the market, if we fail then..... Then we fail (forever?).

Joep

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Because in a Debian GNU/Linux system the root partition is not a "wrong location" at all, and if we would put a tiger policy probably many developers would be quite upset.

This is why we decided not to enforce but to recommend developers to use /opt and /home/MyDocs (in the eMMC) as much as possible.

The idea of having a common warning header in the threads discussing an unstable application is very good. Most of the "innocent users" jumping to unstable software will do so after reading a Talk thread or whatever someone wrote elsewhere after seeing a Talk thread.

I agree with the tone: it's much better to have something short and positive encouraging testing & feedback BUT acknowledging the risks. A "If you break something don't blame us since you've been just warned" ;) or something should be enough.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Perhaps it would make sense to make the App Manager more "aware" of certain repositories. Extras-devel and -test shouldn't have .install files in my opinion, so that they would neeed to be added manually. And installing from these could also show an even more impressive disclaimer.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Although this strays a bit away from the original meaning, I think this should be written as:

Software aus diesen beiden Quellen sollte nur von Entwicklern oder erfahrenen Benutzern installiert werden.

(Software from these two repositories should only be installed by developers and "seasoned" users).

Doesn't sound as awkward to me.

Es kann nicht ausgeschlossen werden, dass Programme aus diesen Quellen die Funktionsweise ihres Gerätes ernsthaft beeinträchten können.

The part before the first "," probably isn't needed - and "alle in diesem Thread erwähnten" (all software mentioned in this thread) is a factual mistake - how should anyone know *which* thread *where* is meant by that?

My 2 Eurocents ...

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I completely agree with this in principle. "Real" developers and testers will have no worries about manually typing in such repositories. On the other hand, although I think we should take down the .install links from, for example, http://repository.maemo.org/, I think it would be over the top to ban them completely from existing on other websites, or to stop h-a-m from processing them.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Aren't the .install files a relic of the old days with lots of different repositories anyway?

The idea behind an .install file (to install application from webbrowser) is good but it should not modify the list of repositories anymore. The system should only accept .install files for repositories that the user has already configured, IMHO.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I think that's too strict. It should IMO allow it, but with a pop-up about the fact that it's going to add a repo to the repo list, yes/no?

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Agreed... a warning of sorts is triggered on the device when a new repository or catalog needs to be installed. Can this dialogue be changed or can selected dialog be produced if triggered by the catalogs title or source?


No matter what the warning, imho something should be posted here, in a highly visable place, soon... it can always be edited later.

The real danger is if a popular blog posts a link, or copies one of these install files to their site with out regard.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Someone should sticky this sucka, ideally in apps. :)

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

The problem now is, correct me if I'm wrong, that you can't easily see out of which repo the package in the package manager comes. You have "extras" but are these the safe or the unsafe extras..
A colour will probably help a lot! Don't know if it's possible to modify the package manager though.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

The package manager shows it in the details summary.
But you shouldn't configure extras-devel on your device at all. :)
It's mostly stuff for N8x0 that was just uploaded to the Fremantle autobuilder.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

You raise a good point: we want to encourage testing but warn of possible consequences, so the overall tone should indeed be positive but with very clear caveats. In addition, paths to bug/suggestion reporting should be clearly included.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

I was reflecting on this today, having volunteered my not-yet-arrived n900 for a few bits of testing already, and wondering how to say what we want to say to people about the test programme without being overly alarming, with a proper disclaimer but also a reassurance.

I came up with something like this (Please note the tech in here is mostly guess!)

This comes with suitable warnings, advice if you have problems, and an invitation to be part of the testing, without the 'You shouldn't be here' bit. I think it might result in more volunteers, yet it still gives due notice of possible problems.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

And the other applications can be?

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

This is a real issue - unless maemo intends to limit the number of applications available for download to under 233MB space in root, it is a design problem, as far as I can see.

Since other things besides installed applications can fill up the root tree (though they should not) perhaps the device could watch the filesystem and give a chance to abort writes when near end of space.

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

So this brings up a question, if root, or rootfs is running as is expected by Maemo architects, how much space is enough? I've got a new n900 that i've installed a few apps, mainly from the 'approved' repositories, and when I run df it shows over 70% in use for 'rootfs'. Is this expected and how much free space is needed before things start to fall apart?

thx

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

Just to clear up a few things - as much as I hate the /opt problem, we're talking about dev repos here. There is no guarantee about anything there - it's the wild west. So yeah, stuff should gravitate to optification, but the chief rule is still caveat emptor.

Since it's a compressed FS this is a bit tricky. There was the idea of the autobuilder inserting a helper field in the debs about the 'real' disk usage of a package (to prevent even considering packages that can't fit), but I don't know what happened to that train of though...

Re: Seriously: don't send users out of Extras without a big warning
 

On a related note, also see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5450