[Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

Writing a good post worth a Thanks! costs more effort than thanking someone for a post. I assume you don't surf the forum to search for posts to Thanks!, but that you stumble upon them and respond by thanking.

There has to be a mechanism so that little johnny can't t(h)ank 1000 random posts to karma whore and screw the worthiness of the Thanks shown & search feature. I suggest, only let one thanking count to karma if there is an equal Thanks! given to the thanking user. So if you Thanks! and make good posts you eventually receive karma from both Thanks! as well as thanking others. This creates a healthy synergy between the 2 IMO.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I agree with what you say in your first paragraph, which is why I proposed a fractional metric. And I don't see that giving/getting thanks balances out necessarily. Anyway, the proposal may have no merit after all, which is what the Thumbs Down is for. ;)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

No, I think giving "Thanks!" is an action which shows some participation in the community but is of such little value, and so easy to do, that it's effectively worthless.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

It's not a bad idea but what's to stop someone from thanking every single last post? Maybe users should be limited by the number of thanks they can give out in a day so that they actually mean something, much like Bugzilla votes.

...now where's that handy FINISH HIM! button gone to? ;)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

What stops abuse NOW? ;)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

It is a bad idea.

Giving "Thanks" shouldn't have any influence on karma.
If everything you do is going to be ranked then this forum will be turned into some kind of childish game.
Making an indicator of "Healthy account" and link it with giving thanks might be a good idea. (Many people don't like to post, but giving thanks will reflect a good healthy account in their profile[in future there might be a use for this])


Just think of this:
@Texrat ,zerojay and others: Wanna swap "Thanks"? (We all are going to get double Karma)

For those who are interested, you can easily pm me. ;)


Anyway, this might be the worst example to give however, if someone is going to suggest an idea to rank a bad post (Some thing that shows how ungrateful or being thankless). You will get my vote for it (This will get me to change my signature into something more useful). ;]

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

FYI, disagreement is fine, but do you have to label an idea as "bad"?

Anyway, as I seem to keep having to mention over and over again, everything is subject to abuse. The potential of abuse is not enough to discredit an idea. If it were, we'd still be planting crops with sticks and harvesting by hand. ;)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

Well, I didn't... I even said so at the start. Just trying to make sure that these kinds of problems are being thought of, that's all. :)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I wasn't referring to any of your comments, Jay, but the post above mine by f(x).

And of course cons need to be thrown at ideas. I'm just saying the "abuse" flag is being waved a bit too cavalierly IMO (in general). We can't let potential for abuse stump brainstorming. I challenge anyone who quickly and easily falls into the "I'll just respond with the abuse argument" category to think a step or 2 further. ;)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I know it was your idea ,but still my opinion is valid. I am free to explain the world around me in the way I see it either good or bad in respect to my logic. Building my concepts doesn't state it is correct and shouldn't be considered right into others point of view. This also doesn't mean my opinion is less valuable than others.

To show & illustrate why I think this is bad here some of them:

1- This will get users into rewarding every single posts they can find by "Thanks" ,even if there is limits here. All of this is in order to get some karma.
2- There won't be any point to post any thing useful if you are going to get thanked anyway, and why you should? (old users might , but think about new users)
3- This will destroy the community we know by increasing the useless topics/posts which its goal is to get as much intention as it could in order to receive the highest "thanks" possible.
4- This will make the people more lazy.
5- We aren't talking about the only abusing it can be done, but also with the potential of determining which member is more valuable to the community more than others (See what n900 discount thing did)


The way it is now is good and more than good. I think it should be left as it is. When an important need would be required for such improvement then at that time it would be necessary to think about.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I respect your right to an opinion, and I think you're missing my point there but I won't belabor it.

Suffice to say I highly doubt your extreme scenarios will come to pass, and if they did, would be a small and very rare exception... just like Thanks abuse now.

But I do appreciate your input, regardless of my opinion. ;)

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

My biggest issue with this idea is that Thanking! isn't a content generating activity. The only two other non-content activities that we count karma for are application ratings and news ratings. Both of which serve useful purposes beyond acknowledging another user's contribution (helping to sort the useful from the not in News and Downloads).

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

karma is gained from participation in the community.

in the same way that the giving thanks could be abused, so could any of the other mechanisms.
I could just as easilu setup an automailer or spambot to send fake bug reports or community discussions or threads here on tmo.
the community will act within themselves to cure abuses - usually with a quiet word to someone who appears to be abusing it.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

getting karma for thanking people is like rewarding youself for work done by others IMO

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I am new to the community and have to say that I find the "Thanks" option useful as a heuristic which replies in a thread are worthwhile to read if I don't want to go through every single post of long winded topics. If you are new to a community and don't know the reputation of individual posters it is of help.

@GeneralAntilles
It actually could be a content generating activity. The sidebar could not only show the most active topics but also the most useful posts (threads) of the last week e.g. calculated based on the number of thanks.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

hahaha

i just did a little experiment!
I gave thanks to GeneralAntilles for a comment - then took it away again!
its the perfect "No Thanks!" button from the other thread :D

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

@Texrat:
It's ok, I know I was kinda rude with my comments.

@lcuk: This is a nice feature, you can temporary increase someone's karma and in one day you takes his dreams away (Actually I had this idea, but I though it was a waste of time ,still good one) :D

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I think the whole thing should be revamped and replaced with an academy award-like system, with people affected being the people voting the rewards. Rather than thanks, people identified as users rather than developers should vote for those they find most helpful.

Developers should vote for those THEY find most helpful; obviously they would know better who is helping them than users who never talk to those people would.

So criteria for what deserves rewarding should be drawn up and the people giving the rewards should be chosen.

No amount of manipulation of sh.t data will give other than sh.t results.

Thanks should remain as a time-saving, personal step, but should not be ground up and used as compost for the reward system.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I'm thankful to be seeing some useful feedback. ;)

On a side note, this dialog has made me realize I need to create a general brainstorming tutorial. The activity requires a different sort of participation than, say, bug reporting or political debate.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I fear such idea would bring karma inflation in exchange of no much community value.

And there is an ethical virtue in the fact of not being rewarded whenever you thank the work of someone. In real life, would you like a rule like this: every time someone tells you Thanks! he is getting a lollypop for free.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I think some of the concerns that may be tied to this brainstorm (noobs unaware of Thank buttons, people lazy engaging in thanking activities) can and should be addressed in a different manner... like a better introduction\orientation program for new members and maybe a some visual changes to the thank button to improve its visibility (change the color or make it bold, but something subtle).

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

Even if the Thanks button design is not inspired in Las Vegas city lights, the effects of using it couldn't be more visible to all Talk users:

"The Following n Users Say Thank You to xxxx For This Useful Post:"

I personally the whole Thanks thing works well, fits the purpose and I wouldn't touch it.

In fact, as one of the persons that pushed the idea of maemo.org karma a couple of years ago I feel we are investing too much time discussing it.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

Alright, I wasn't too invested in this one anyway (the visitor routing one is much more important to me). :D I'll withdraw it.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

take a look at solution i made second ago. tell me what you think about it.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I, for one, am feeling very generous. Feel free to give me thanks and I will, in return, offer you much karma. :p

Tim

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

My girlfriend is doing a research on how data management programs influence on the actual work getting done. Because the data defines the efficiency of the worker, the workers start to do tasks that give them more "efficiency points" - no matter if these tasks are the most important ones or not. And some important task are neglected, because the program doesn't value them (ie. "invisible work").

Just saying, that while this Karma exits, it can't be neclected. It will have an influence on peoples behavior. It's purpose just has to be clear: to indicate the activity (and usefulness) of the member to the community. If giving thanks to someone can be considered as a meaningful activity and therefore something we want to substain, then it should be rewarded with karma. But the amount oh the karma should be in pair with the importance and effort.

But I agree with qgil: the importance of Karma should not be emphasized - you should not start doing things that give you karma, you should be doing useful things and GET Karma. IMHO the amount of thanks on the site is now quite good (they are given, but not for every post), and giving thanks should remain sincere: "I thank you for writing this" and not "I thank myself for reading this".

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

Sorry, but I do not see why it is needed. Also, it pretty much encourages people to cheat.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

It'll be just too easy to open a long thread and click 'Thank' on every posting.

You can of course try to introduce some metrics to restrict, this, e.g. that you can't thank someone else until such-and-such etc. But that has been tried before, elsewhere: Brighthand used to have a complex 'reputation' system, where you at all times had a certain amount of 'reputation points' that you could handle out to someone. This resource could increase and wax after certain rules.

It was very difficult to artificially increase someone's reputation, and you could only hand out a certain amount at any time. In many ways a person's reputation on Brighthand seemed to be a more accurate 'karma' measure (a kind of Thanks+Karma integrated into one) than our system here (except that our Karma also takes into account more than Thanks), but in the end it was disbanded anyway. It was explained why here: http://forum.brighthand.com/showpost...55&postcount=1

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

This is an explanation of the Reputation system that can be implemented on vBulletin boards (just like this one)

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

At first glance, I like the idea of gaining a little karma by thanking someone, but I definitely think we need to study what other similar communities (like brighthand mentioned above) have done in the past, as other people will have been through this before us.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

anyone who vists or searches the forum regularly for a few months knows who their favorite developers and the really important and most helpful forum contributors are. i would guess none or very few of them do what they do for forum karma. i'm not sure we would lose all that much by abolishing karma altogether or by only giving it to developers. it might save us from a lot of forum fluff, and thereby make it more pleasant for the people mentioned above to hang out here. but to me, leaving the karma system the way it is would still be preferable to enlarging or complicating it.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

What about mailing list + correctly configured spambot with your email as sender?

And what if amount of thanked -karma is max 10% of your existing karma? that would be imo better valuation: thanking is important but it cant get you karma alone. And more you do something else, more you can get by thanking.

Re: Brainstorm: Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk (Under consideration)
 

I have been a Skin(n)arian all my life. Everything has influence on peoples behavior. :eek:

Receiving thanks is unexpected reinforcement. Giving thanks is in itself reinforcing. Hell, I think we should be able to plant little BS flags on some posts but it is pro'ly not a very productive idea. :p

What may have to happen (and I realize this is off Texrat's original topic) is that as membership levels change the amount or rate of karma earned for thanks should change.
That is, for example: The karma earned for a post that 10% of the membership thanks should always be the same regardless of how many members we have. The earning ratio should be tied to a key volume indicator :)

Another regulator could be limiting one thanks to a member per thread. You can still thank everyone in the thread, but you can only do it once.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

I've decided I will withdraw this submission, BUT I am highly encouraged by the discussion that erupted in the past few days. Maybe this is an "it ain't broke so don't fix it" sort of thing but it never hurts to explore possibilities.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

I really liked this system when I've seen it in use in certain forums I go to. Good idea.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

I'm agreeing with the former now, but I continue to believe that the latter thought is in error.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

Of course, you can come up with all kinds of elaborate karma-harvesting schemes, but there is absolutely no reason to make it easier than it already is.

Re: [Under consideration] Karma for GIVING thanks in Talk
 

Okay, I don't actually want to delete this idea, because even though it's flawed there was some good dialog around it-- but now I definitely see Quim's point about a "WONTFIX".

What I would like to see:

-Option for creator to Withdraw proposal (I don't see that)
-Option for moderator to Retire a proposal (perhaps with originator approval required)
-Feature to support Hibernation/Expiration of an idea if it receives no activity for a certain length of time

I will repeat these in the Brainstorm discussion on this subject.