why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I'm finding myself surrounded by people who are enthusiast to say the least; but they are not driven by Maemo, they are enthusiast about Android and the Jesus phone, despite a significant share of them being Linux developers. I've been trying to preach Maemo and "computer-on-your hand" concept to them, they are more interested to get SSH and VNC working on HTC Hero than contribuing to Maemo.

If you take a quick look on the web, see how many application spring up for Android, despite being just a year old. Maemo is now about 3 years old, and not getting a fraction of the attention Android does.

So my problems are::
- Why can't we get developers (in the "companies" sense) to get to create applications for Maemo ?
- Why isn't this program every's Linux developers wet dream ?
- Why aren't we projecting an interesting image like Android ? I don't want to be "hip and cool" as the iPhone users, but getting significant innovation under Maemo name is critical.
- Why are we so few ? I estimate the size of this community to about 2000 people, about which only 200 are really active.
- What can we do to ensure that the future is Nokia and not HTC :) ?

Let's find out why we're still sitting in a darkish corner and what do we need to do to get our heads above anyone else !

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

One thing which is kind of important to note is that Maemo was previously confined to internet tablets, which, while being a cool device in their own right - had kind of limited penetration.

I'm a good example of this.

I've got (or had, I'm waiting on my N900 now) a phone which did internet access, I have an MP3 player, I have a tablet PC. I don't want yet another gadget which has a single purpose and provides yet more bulk for me to carry and worry about it being stolen.

This is why, for me, and I think for a lot of other people, the N900 and future devices are going to be changing things quite a bit.

I think that with the release of the N900, we'll see an influx of new people, and once more and more regular applications get ported - as well as normal applications being made - the publicity for the Maemo platform will rise quite a bit.

Of course, publicity helps, and that's something that we need to be pushing on more and more.

I do understand the frustration that you're in, but let me share a story:

I experienced this same frustration with a colleague of mine a few months ago. He wanted a cool device/phone. He bought an iPhone because the N900 wasn't out. Now he's really regretting it because of the locked down nature of the phone.

We have something which all of those platforms don't (really) have quite so much (especially with the Android C&D nonsense): an open platform, and open software.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I think a main factor is that only with the N900 Maemo will acquire phone functionality, which makes Maemo a mainstream interest capable OS, thus, tempting developers (companies).
In this sense, the N900 still has to be released, while Android is already a year old, and is based on Linux too (so, attracting many linux fans).

I would say, lets pose these questions in a year from now... ;)

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

digia@web?!?!

e: and one major n800 user for proto apps: http://www.vtt.fi/

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Just to confirm... if you are developing on QT you are able to easily port applications to multiple platforms. If my assumption is correct it would be "better" to encourage development on QT rather than any specific platform, as this would allow them to have access to the broadest market.

i apologize in advance if i am off-base.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I think that the challenge is that we are currently a very small market, relative to android or osx. if /when there is a larger market and clear channels to deliver software then we have an opportunity to attract developers.

Nokia has the hardware and a great os with even greater potential. In the US it will be how they approach the carriers, in other markets it is how they approach the consumers that will decide what happens.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I'd rather pose them now, and be proactive instead of waiting for a year after which all effort may be a bit late. Because the battle is ongoing now, and we just can't sit behind knowing Maemo is a superior platform, but getting no adoption because of .... what ?

About the openness, Android is as open as Maemo, even more. Anyone with a bit of Java knowledge (low barrier to entry) can strike up an app and push it to the market place.
Even the iPhone will be getting liberated a bit Adobe will release the Flash for iPhone: tons of web developers with minimal skill will be able to hack up applications and distribute them to a incredible user base: 32 milion iPhone customers, of which a majority will gladly install every piece of software they can get their hands on.

I'm afraid we'll see Maemo relegated to the status of a niche platform, unless:
- There is a simple enough SDK. Ovi SDK seems like a step in a good direction, I'd militate for advanced Javascript/Actionscript support in the browser, or possible porting Adobe AIR to this device.
- The devices are user-friendly and reliable in operation. Joe Average will not use this platform if it takes more than 4 clicks to do anything interesting.
- Develop a killer application for this platform which is not present elsewhere - we should brainstorm on this; I'd personally start supporting liqbase as a tool for presentations: run it on video out, allow to nice interactions based on screen with live addnotations, make it default tool for a presentation in the corporate world instead of laptop + powerpoint.
- Make it easy to run application developed for other devices on this one. This is a tough one, but running J2ME and Android apps on the Maemo 5 and above out of box would be incredible.

We should not battle the iPhone on the image, and Android on portability, we should battle on openness, ease of use, and versatility.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

People are excited about getting things done, the iPhone and to a lesser extent Android makes lots of cool functionality available to them.

Maemo has a lot of potential to do this but it currently lacks applications and a strong development community with a track record of delivering on applications. Hopefully it'll develop one because I don't really like the closed nature of current platforms.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Well my opinion is that NOKIA has missed a lot at this point.
For me there is no big difference ranging from the n800 to the n900
but in hardware. But i do not wanted a n800 because of its hardware
but of its software just like ddalex mentions.

One main reason for me wanting to won a n800 was the Skype
function where i am still sick by the fact that until today there has
been no software updates so that i can use the "send video" option.
Realizing that this still does not work for me is a joke.

my opinion: it's not about the hardware, it's about the software.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Moin,

comparing the complexity of the N900 (Exchange support, Calendar, Sharing services, integrated Conversations view, etc) to an N810 I think there's quite some difference in software.

Since when is Skype video support on Linux available? Not that long I think.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I'm not sure if the observation is right in the first place. If the question is about software for Maemo and getting developers to write for Maemo, I think it's a pretty impressive success story.

Don't forget that Maemo hasn't been available on mass market devices so far. Also, there's no "app store" where you could make money from applications. So what you could realistically hope for is that those who own a Maemo device may eventually develop/port what they need for themselves and make it available for the public.

We have ~500 applications now. That's plenty. Really. If I go to the Ovi Store with my S60v3 device, I get ~1000 Applications (including games). Now compare the number of S30v3 devices sold to that of Maemo devices... And add to that the fact that people who publish @ovi.com can make money from their applications...

My impression is we have a much broader range of software available than one should expect in this niche market. Don't forget that when application stores for other platforms list 10.000 apps, you can safely assume there's always 500 of them that do the same thing with a different UI. We may have only one or two apps for a specific task, but that's better than having 500 applications that make your N810 fart in stereo.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Because no one has heard of Maemo and they don't understand the concept?

Because the masterful PR campaign for the term "Maemo" has yet to be launched from the bold, resourceful, media-savvy developers here, who have launched so many erratically capitalized terms and their experience is about to sweep the world? In two weeks Maemo will be on the front page of every newspaper in the galaxy and you will have to chase developers away with a stick. People will be naming their first-born Maemo, especially useful for people named John Brown who used to differentiate themselves with the middle name of Heironymus -- now it wll be John Maemo Brown!

Sorry...

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I actually like the idea that I am not 'stuck' with one app to do something. I agree that I would like to not have 500 fart apps, but I won't complain about having 5 media players to choose from or 10 im clients.

I hate that we talk about the n900 as a niche product, If you consider "smart phone" a niche then sure. BUT software will determine what sub smart device niche this device can fall into.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

For the record, there are well over 5 media players for Maemo. You won't (and shouldn't) see 10 IM clients as the N900 conceptually doesn't deal with 'clients', it's all sort of plugin-ish. You don't even have Skype as a separate application, and I think it's a fantastic approach compared to the million-apps-for-a-million-sites approach of the iPhone.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Why do the fart apps always need to be mentioned? If there's silly and outright stupid apps among the tens of thousands of apps available for a platform, it doesn't mean that there wouldn't be plenty of useful ones too.

Nonsense. So what, Android has 20 unique apps? :) There's plenty of apps for the same thing, yes. But there's also plenty of apps for things not available on Maemo.

There's more apps for these other platforms, period. Also, why would it be bad to have lots of choice about what type of application for use X to install? When I got my Android phone, I looked at the available RSS feed readers (plenty, as you can imagine. No, not quite 500), installed 3 or 4 of them and kept the one I liked the best. Does that sound a bad thing? I was actually very happy about this since I've never liked the N810 RSS reader and I'm actually quite picky about how I want it to look, etc. I found a nice one.

Admitting the facts (as in, Maemo does NOT have as good a selection in apps as the other platform) might be a good starting point for improving the situation. It really doesn't accomplish anything to claim that the other platforms don't have any good ones available and to claim that the other app stores / markets are not any better. They are, admit it. The selection of apps (both unique apps and apps that do the same thing) is better on those other platforms at the moment. Looking forward to the day when the situation is more equal.

Also: code a fart app. Please. That'd be fun.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

And as for the commercial app developer draw people talked about - it won't happen, not in the way you visualize. A lot of people want the SAME developers who are devoted to a business model NOT present on Maemo to come over and develop for it. That won't happen. Many draw the conclusion that this means niche devices and markets, but this is not necessarily true. The point is you have to spread ALTERNATIVE BUSINESS CONCEPTS of how to monetize on Maemo, which DO exist. Currently users are mindblocked on the Almighty Appstore and see that as the only possible way of commercial development (and the developers there the only mindshare to capture).

Maemo CAN do something revolutionary with regard how business is done on mobile app development. But lock it in a Appstore lookalike and you are suddenly no different than any other manufacturer trying to make it's own App-me-too-store.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/multimedia/
count the media players. I think you'll have 5.

In my post I referred to the pre-N900 devices. You shouldn't seriously expect any development for the N900, a device that's not even released. (The fact that, in spite of this, we do have an impressive number of applications ready and waiting to be installed by end users shows how far ahaed Maemo actually is.)

Pre-N900 devices certainly were niche products. (And I think a niche product is something positive. The masses aren't too bright, niche products are for those who are able and willing to deal with more power and complexity than the average consumer.)

It will depend on the marketing, but I believe the N900 will not be a mass market product, either. It's still too weak on the phone side, it cannot compete with smartphones like Nokia's own S60 models. Not a lot of customers will replace their current expensive smartphone with an even more expensive device that can do less. The niche may not be quite as small as it was for the N8x0, but it'll probably still be a niche.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Well, let's look at the most succesfull aplications for Maemo 4, and we'll see nothing ground breaking, but apps that are considered "must have" system enhancements on a smartphone or Linux computer and that come already embedded in the most cases on Android. Specifically, top apps are: Personal Menu, Power Monitor, Weather widget, Media Player, Mapper, SSH, Mplayer, Instant messaging, More Media Player, System Monitor, WifiInfo, Sound Recorder, More media players.... I don't know how to emphasize this, but there are NO applications that let you DO nice things on Maemo apart from monitoring the system and consume media.

We don't have groundbreaking work as Layar because... what exactly ? Why students with reseach projects don't embrace Maemo and publish software on it ? What other great software apart from liqbase do we have on Maemo ? What is that the Maemo is missing to enhance its appeal to innovators, and how can we ammend that ?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Reading a post before wring a reply like that might be a good starting point, too.

I didn't say Maemo has as much applications as other platforms.

I said that given the fact that Maemo lives in a niche market (whereas Android is a mass market thing), the selection of applications is surprisingly good. You just cannot compare the two and expect to find as many apps in Maemo Extras as in the Android store.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Because they don't own a Maemo device and have no motivation whatsoever to develop for a platform they never heard of?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Oh, please:

So:

Maemo: 1 or 2 apps per task
Others: 500 applications that make your device fart in stereo

What did I misunderstand again?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

This is a case of can't see the forest for the trees. A media player will be very popular as it appeals to everybody, same goes for the other stuff you mention. This doesn't mean there are no interesting apps, but that they simply won't be shown on the top of the pile (mentioned liqbase being a good example of this). Take a look on the AppStore top 100, it's the same situation. Just how many revolutionary things do you see there ? Very, very little. I mean, really, Tetris ? Frogger ? Solitaire ? Bejeweled ? Scrabble ?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

You don't understand that it's completly unrealistic to expect more than 1-2 apps per task for a niche OS like Maemo. (Maemo <=4, that is.)
That, in fact, it exceeds expectations to have these 1-2 applications per task at all. (I mean: eCoach, Carman, a bible reader (!!!), easyChem,... who would have expected things like these when the 770 was introduced?)

(Or maybe you do understand and just keep it going...)

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I think it's you who doesn't seem to understand what I was talking about, go back and read the messages. Take it easy. It's your point about what the other platforms have available that I have an issue with, quite conveniently you seem to NOT comment on that. Go on, tell me about the 500 fart apps now. I'm listening.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

It's not as much a question of a niche as in difference in philosophy. With Maemo, as most OSS, it's about an itch being scratched. With Apple/Android, it's about a developer believing that HIS implementation will the the next best thing and not the other 499 developers who attempted to address the same issue. In more economy-oriented terms, on Maemo development is driven by DEMAND, while in appstore oriented OSes, as awkward it may seem at a first glance, development is driven by SUPPLY.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

See? And suddenly we agree.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Right, that's the second factor I wrote about in my post:

This is expected to change, of course, with M6.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Highly interesting point of view. But I believe true innovation cannot occur based on DEMAND, because the user doesn't know what may lay around next corner - innovation is driven by SUPPLY because of the need to supress one's competitor in the market place.

Laugh as you want at the fart / I am rich apps on the store, but I believe they are highly innovative in terms of user experience - nobody before the iPhone conceived Joe User might want his expensive smart phone to fart, but it seems the user wants this !

Now, I don't want fart apps on the phone, I want innovation in both technological and user experience sense; but we must ask ourselves: when photoshop.com releases a highly succesfull free app for the iPhone, what would take to have it released for the Maemo too ?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Don't forget that in the OSS world (unlike the AppStore equvalent), developers/hackers play a huge, if not determining factor in DEMAND, and that's where most of the innovation stems from.

It would take X millions of people willing to pay for it. Nothing to do with technology or distribution channels, appstores, etc.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

But is there a reason why the community couldn't create an OS 'photo-shop' equivalent, which would do graphics editing beyond the pre-installed photo tolls and call it 'maemo-shop'?

Would this be impossible? Would the very idea pf a graphics editing tool imping on Adobe's licence?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an easy way for Windows developers (ever heard of them? it seem's there are quite a few of them... :rolleyes: ) to do exactly that for Maemo.

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...t_for_maemo_5/

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

The "Maemo-shop" name might be dodgy but you can of course create a photo editing tool and there are many out there. The issue is whether people really want to edit photos extensively on their phone.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

The iPhone version is free as in beer, because the iPhone platform and market is seen as a valuable asset in itself, and everybody wants a piece of that.
The problem isn't making a free maemo-shop with the same capabilities (there's a thread for that in the forum), is driving the Maemo platform to the same "value in itself" status, so much that everybody couldn't afford not playing in Maemo. This would drive innovation !

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Kathy,
the *idea* of image editing on the device is not impeding on anything.
I suggest you look at the results of the cocreation workshop we took part in at the summit, part of those were related to media editing and shaking up what is possible on the go.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32619

these sorts of applications are possible, but would require a much more deliberate and planned collaborative effort to get underway in any substantial manner.

taking those ideas beyond the paper stage is hard though and without solid hard work proving the case, they will remain exactly that - ideas.

just look at what I'm starting with liqbase, I could not have expected support in coding or monetary terms 18 months ago had I came and said I have some ideas.
Now, after coding it and proving the concept, its becoming feasible to gather momentum to actually make a business out of them and bring those ideas to the community at large.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I think what you are describing is flawed logic for the path forward, historically it may have been true.

in app store oriented OSes, development is driven by market and pride.

• Market driver is there are "enough: people who are willing to buy your stuff to make it worth your effort
• Pride driver is the want to make the best of something and share/sell it to th

e world.

Historically, it appears, Maemo development is driven by DEMAND most often by the user/developer and pride in community

I think the maemo many of you know is changing or evolving.

There will be an app store attached to the n900 and i assume future instances of maemo devices... Ovi as a service and distribution platform will be pervasive across all Nokia products. You will have the ability to not use it, as a developer or a user. That will be the decision you have to make. Since this phone is being picked up by carriers and is a powerful (normal sized pocket) device that is cool, it will get picked up by a majority of people who prefer the app store route.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

That's because Linux developers probably see their desktop/laptop computers and their handhelds as two different *beasts* entirely. Any developer worth his/her salt is going to know how to ssh into a remote machine, and, for most, that's all they need in a handheld. The real work gets done on a proper keyboard. The phone is just for communication and entertainment.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Just to hook into this. It is not entirely clear it IS worth the effort. All we have is marketing talk like 'surely developing for an X million market pays !', but in fact, there is very little data about just how many applications (and thus companies) in the ecosystem are actually profitable.

I referred to this as the Fire and Water problem. I really don't see how the two (the current Extras-style OSS and the commercial Ovi route) can coexist without one impeding the other (except for very specific cases like high-budget games). Could be just my shortsightedness and the fact that there is no historical precedent for such a case :)

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Have you had one in your hands?

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

Maemo is pretty important for Nokia. Nokia has simply nothing comparable to Iphone/Android. If Maemo doesnt rock - Nokia will have a problem!
Hopefully Nokia can deliver the phone soon. As for me its critical to have something soon. And I think there are a lot of Nokia Users having some E Series or N Series phones awaiting something to replace their old gadgets but were disappointed by the N97 (as I). If Nokia can bring these users to there N900 there will be a critical mass of users that will make maemo attractive for developers.
In my opinion linux users that use linux because of its openess and possibilities will come to maemo sooner or later.
The question is how to attract dissappointed IPhonees and Androidees? Its all about the weaknesses of others Phone OSs as the convinced ones will not have a reason to come to N900/maemo as they spent a lot for a new phone in the last two years.

Re: why doesn't maemo get traction in the market
 

I'm not sure about this, in terms that it would/should be a much higher priority to convert (the numerous) mid-to-high-end Symbian folks to Maemoites than fight for iPhone/Android dropouts. :)