Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Not sure I should be posting this, as I'm about to cancel my (delayed again) pre-order. so I really shouldn't care what happens here. But I do, and I've been reflecting.

Even in the short time I've been here, I've noticed a change in the ethos of the forum. There's a higher proportion of posts I understand - and one or two of them are less than contributory.

I fear this is inevitable. Some of you might wish that t.m.o could go on just being a quiet corner for developers only, where everyone speaks the same language. There were disagreements, sure, but they tended to be technical or about specifications and the like. Or the karma system.

Now the reality is that a whole bunch of us non-techs have shown up, and we've changed the place. Some of us have (hopefully) brought something useful if not technical to the forum. Others have brought things that seem to fit less well.

I don't think t.m.o. was expecting this - or at least, I don't get the impression you were prepared. The fact that you are the first place that shows up on google may be great, but it means you will also attract less desirable posters. Even eventually, dare I whisper it, trolls who have no interest in maemo.

Right now, what we have is a whole bunch of people who're interested in the subject, but very frustrated at the repeated delays and date changes. They want to talk maemo, but they don't have a device to play with. Which probably increases the tendency to talk off topic.

The question is, how to respond. I don't think the 'fun stuff' is a problem (and I doubt you can make it go away completely even if you wanted) but I do think it needs to be kept in its place.

Fluff threads belong in Off Topic. A bit more rigor in moving or merging them wouldn't hurt. Less serious threads which become serious also may need moving: though that's been pretty efficient, I think.

Non-fluff threads need to be kept non-fluff, at least until they've fulfilled their purpose. A bit more nudging onto topic by all concerned would also help. (Once a serious question has been asked and answered, it matter less if the thread attracts spam). It is also possible in vBulletin to extract posts from one thread and put them into another. That can be useful for pulling unhelpful stuff out of a serious thread and into a fluff dump. Somehow, we need to make sure that those of us who are not developers have somewhere we can operate, share, ask questions and contribute without causing nuisance to those who are.

Finally, a word about karma and thanks: is it possible to rescind someone's ability to thank? Because that might be a useful abilty. ;) With 'thanks' actually counting for something, you might also look at your tools for ensuring no-one is registering several accounts and going round thanking themselves. (Yes, I know the limitations of I.P. blocking.... but you could rule 'no giving thanks from a proxy', for example)

I suspect that the suggestion of removing the Off Topic threads from the sidebar was related to this concern about the 'noise', though it might also have come from the removal (since my arrival) of the 'profanity filter', resulting in profanity in the side bar, where it can't be avoided and doesn't look good to newcomers. Other places I have worked/played have ruled simply "No profanity in thread titles" and admins have edited accordingly. VBulletin also has an extremely complex infraction system, should you choose to use it.

Not sure what else to suggest. I should probably start a 'brainstorm' about this - but to be honest I still lack confidence in that facility!

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I registered 2006. We had quite a few changes to the culture and tone in this forum. I don't like what's going on here right now either, but my reasons are different. In fact, they're the exact opposite of some of your points. I feel there's too many people atm who run around in uniforms, yelling and whistling and telling people to step off the lawn. (My rant about this is elswhere and not worth searching for.)

i'm and old man and my memory may play tricks on me, but this was a more fun and relaxed place years ago.

Now you are concerned about the signal:noise ratio and suggest even "a bit more rigor in moving or merging", which is what I've had enough of. - Maybe then what they're doing right now is the perfect balance to keep both of us happy? :)

About karma and thanks: karma is highly overrated. It's nothing new, it was established years ago and it needs a little tweaking every now and then, but overall, it works fine and means little. Now that for the first time (IIRC) karma can equal real money (=discount), everybody gets obsessed with it. This is good in a way, because in makes some members finally link their profiles or register at maemo.org at all, but in the end.... It's just a number. The algorithm to calculate it can change, give more or less weight to "Thanks", who knows? Thanks in this forum should not be restricted because of karma considerations. If anythying, karma calculations could be changed on how thanks are being handled in practice.

And finally: Ordering an N900 isn't a requirement for being active in this forum. Stay. We'd miss you. You make me think of my holidays in Cornwall... :)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Thanks for the response.

I take your point about moderation. My experience suggests that moderation tends to happen reactively when a community changes, and rules are found to be necessary. If one is not careful, the board rule-book can look worse than the EU constitution, when all it really needs to say is 'post with common sense'.

My concern was not with my experience, so much as a feeling I get in several places that some long time users are a bit hacked off at all us newbies. I'd hate to see this place become somewhere that you had to be a developer to belong.

Again with karma - I don't expect as a non-developer that I shall ever get into the 'discount' category, but I have seen long-time users grouch at the fact that people are being thanked for 'pointless' posts. Which since they've spent a long time building up credit with hard work is entirely understandable.

I also do suspect that the next few weeks may well attract even more problems as people twiddle their thumbs (instead of doing a twirly-zoom) waiting for thir devices.

And finally, thanks. I like it here. The community is one of the major reasons for telling myself to wait in patience and not buy something else (along with the resistive screen, carl zeiss lens and sheer... differentness of the n900). Cornwall is good for holidays. Though not in November.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Cornwall in November? Ouch. Probably almost as bad as Finland. :)
I used to be in Carbis Bay near St. Ives. That was July/August, though.

I see t.m.o as a place for interested end users. It does have a high number of developers compared to any average user forum, but they do their dirty talking on the mailing list usually. t.m.o. is just a place where they talk to users. Maybe we'll see other, even more end user related places in the future.

About karma again: Don't forget karma measures community involvement, not your skills at a developer. You can easily collect more karma by writing wiki articles, blogging and filing bugs than a developer who writes brilliant code, but otherwise stays away from maemo.org. That's the purpose of karma: involvement. Not coding. Recieving thanks is an indicator for involvement. You can be thanked for pointless posts, yes, but you can also write nonsensical articles in the wiki or publish useless applications. - In the end, very few people do, and you can't make the karma calculator understand what it counts.

If for some future purpose you would need to measure the amount of development work somebody contributed, you wouldn't use karma for that in the first place. You'd simply count the apps he uploaded and the garage projects he's active in. So again, no reason to change the "thanks". ;)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Interesting point about 'not being a developer' - Planet Maemo blog aggregation specifically says "Writers specializing on end user topics are only accepted exceptionally: maemo.org is for developers and power users." (Hence my blog reflection on the newbie's experience doesn't qualify - which neither surprises nor concerns me). And yeah, my contribution to wiki so far has been literally more questions than answers. But I still see people very unhappy with 'thanks' going to fluffly posts.

T.m.o. is rather different, though. But I think some of the developers wish we weren't here - or at least there were fewer of us. The prospect of more end-users doesn't appeal. I think my aim with the thread was about addressing that a little more pro-actively: there are already skirmishes breaking out over how people behave and what content they post.

(And no, I don't want to read the dirty talk on the mailing list. I prefer my dirty talk to be on topics I understand. ;) )

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Leaving so soon? Come on, wait until Christmas, at least! :)

Well, it is Internet. Trolls, mental patients, and idiots have long been significant part of it. The best way to deal with them, as far as I am concerned, is first by trying to convert them to relative sanity, and, if that does not work, by repeatedly dipping them in tar and feathers until they exit the stage. Notice that moderation is not involved in any of these solutions, although I am all for selective banning of people on technical grounds (flood, threats, etc).

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

That blurb on blog aggregation should be removed, IMO. There are a lot of non-developer oriented blogs on the Planet nowadays. If you feel your blog has something to contribute to our community, I encourage you to get it aggregated.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

if this is the impression you get, it should be addressed. - get a different one! :p

no, seriously, that should never happen on tmo. whenever you see this kind of behaviour, tell the developer on the other end of the line that this isn't what you expected. it may well be that he or she isn't even aware of the issue.

i have to say that personally, i never felt the devs didn't want me here. quite on the contrary, most of them are very nice when explaining problems and reacting to feedback. but this may of course depend on the threads and topics that attract your attention. tmo is quite a big place. there may well be different cultures here meanwhile, depending on which kind of content you follow.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Oh, I don't feel the devs don't want me here! ;) They've all been polite and welcoming in every situation. More a sort of 'not too many non-devs, please' feeling. Hence the concept of 'ratio'.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

@Kathy: it's also a time of changes. I remember similar issues when major OS version (chinook, diablo) were released, and also when the n800 and n810 were out.

Give the new device in the hand of all of us geeky children, and we'll stay quiet toying with it for some time :) and posting useful things like hacks, ports and bug reports for everybody's pleasure.
In December, or in January 2010, these forums will turn into a nice place again :)

@Benny: I also remind a time of much greater militarization of these forums, at the point that one could be intimidated for merely posting a question, in case the answer was to be found embedded in a 20-pages thread with different words. Now, for heaven's sake, this Efrafa is over :D

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I feel by your comment that you’re more than a common future user. One of the things that I like about community developing is that even if your not a programmer you can always propose ideas, report bugs, create wallpapers, whatever…

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I'm still here. Been here all morning. ;)
Like an addict with my fix.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Is that what you old timers called it back in the day? H'mmm. "A Holiday in Cornwall"... I'll have to remember that. :p

***

As far as S/N ratios go, you are pro'ly right Kat. A lot of that will go away once there is a purpose (device in hand) again. Gaming the karma system is going to happen but I don't think it is sustainable over a long period of time. Some of the objections or "sour grapes" voiced over this system may have been because some newer people may at first assumed (mistakenly) that karma and thanks had a 1 to 1 relationship. Also, linking givers as well as receivers to a profile page that uses a real name and a real e-mail addy may reduce what BS there is even more.

Now as far as: I agree... and nothing brings them out faster and in greater numbers than giving something away for free. It's the American way. :p
Today is Halloween here in the states and I am reminded that we start conditioning our youth to expect this from an early age. :D

...Unfortunately the real nut cases are there on Holloween too, and they will use the opportunity to advance their own twisted agenda.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I modded in a forum where the concept of 'troll' went to the level of hacking people's email accounts, posting their social security number online, and photoshopping the admin's head onto necro porn. Maybe I'm a little hypersensitive to atmosphere.

As you say, with any luck, things will settle when the devices actually start shipping (*sigh*). I just don't like the feeling that we've bounced in here and made the folk who've slogged on this project for years feel uncomfortable.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

None of the activities you listed can be called "trolling". They are abusive hacking activities. Well, the necro porn is actually not a punishable offense in my book, but the rest deserves an immediate ban ("compromising other users' privacy, invading their lives outside of the forum"), case closed.

Thankfully, we are not seeing any of these on t.m.o.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I don't think you should do that, and also I'd rather you didn't do that. Firstly, I don't know how often you change devices, but I'd expect my N900 to have a lifetime of a few years at least, and it seems rather self-defeating to cancel and spend the next couple of years N900-less because you're upset at spending this few weeks N900-less. The delays are indeed annoying, and the standards of communication from Nokia have been lamentable, but cancelling the order's going to have more impact on you than it is on them.

Secondly, if you don't get an N900 I imagine you'll stop hanging around the forum so much, and I think that would be worse for everyone. I've only been here a fairly brief time too, and clearly there's a bit of a culture clash occurring (actually, I think, several overlapping ones all happening simultaneously), but I think your calm and good-humoured posting style helps in getting useful discussions to happen, and judging by your 'thanks' counter I'm not alone in valuing your contributions.

So, yeah, don't do that; it'd be sad.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

We go through these expansion periods every time a new release rolls around. Usually it's bad for a month or two but eventually people either get bored and move on or become productive citizens. This one happens to be more severe than the others, but I expect the process will follow the same timeline.

We were definitely expecting it, but, unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can really do to prepare for it. We organized the forums as best we could, agreed on some more structured administration guidelines and bunkered up. I'm of the opinion that we probably should've been more active in the moderation process (at least for the first few weeks).

benny's idea of peaceful anarchy is, quite simply, deluded. It works when you have a group of people who are comfortable with a community and its guidelines, it doesn't work when you get massive influxes of new people who are unfamiliar with what is deemed generally acceptable by a community and will run rampant over the unspoken rules. You need structure to handle that.

I recall a different situation myself, but perhaps that just because I was one of the people investing so much time trying to help folks. It's very easy to condem others from up there in the peanut gallery.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Kathy, not to discredit your experience, but...

Seriously, any decent statistician will tell you there's just no way such a brief period can tell you anything. True, you could not have timed it better-- the N900 is indeed opening us up to some (ahem) interesting characters and I'm sure the other moderators are having a fun time with some of them. We expected that.

But it will even out. There's a high level of tolerance here but even that has limits. ;)

And don't think this forum is "all about developers". Yes, they are certainly well-represented, especially since the old talk forum merged with maemo.org, but we've always had a steady influx of casual users-- many of whom have gone on to become heavy testers, superusuers, bloggers, brainstormers, etc.

And even if they don't, you've seen for yourself the high interest in accomodating regular users who just need a decent introduction to Maemo devices. We've not been idle in that regard.

I would hope you'd give the N900 another chance. The delay is not a bad thing overall-- it will ensure product quality. And yours has been a very welcome signal amongst the noise.

So please: stick around. We need you.

:)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I realise that my experience has been very limited in this community. My point was that if even I've noticed a change, it must be more acute for someone who's been in a Nice Quiet Forum for months or years. It doesn't scare me - I've lived with far worse. ;)

No, you haven't. I think that's part of why I'm concerned. The Clever People have been incredibly welcoming and patient with me, and with some others. But as the goofball and 'noise' ratio rises, I can see patience starting to fail. And that worries me. GA's post that it was expected is reassuring.

I've said all along that the most I will do is cancel my preorder and look at alternatives. I find the pre-order date-change stuff (for which nokia is notorious) very stressful. So far three hours researching have failed to turn up any device that as nearly matches my needs as the n900 - and that's without considering the huge value I find in a good, supportive user/developer community.

And thanks ;)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

And my point is your stay here has been so brief that you can't really consider any event or series of events to be a change. Too small a statistical sample to be of any significance. A spike at most, and again to be expected.

But anyway hopefully most if not all of your concerns have been allayed.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I think Kathy's evaluation of her experience here is pertinent and insightful, but I also agree with debernardis and the Captain : we have been through these growing pains before.

InternetTabletTalk got started in 2005 as a tribe of like-minded diehards hunkering around a mountain campfire, fascinated by that strange new beast, the 770, fighting incredibly beta software, united in their belief that this new idea of Nokia's should be made to work, despite a mostly uncomprehending outside world.

When the N800 and later N810 came out to more fanfare and achieved better notoriety, we already saw waves of people from the city arriving in their shiny SUVs, designer shades and sneakers, behaving like nothing had ever happened before them. That, and inducing resentment from grouchy old-timers in the process, are probably the two most common symptoms in the life of any community, online or not.

Twice, the forum adapted and survived, some of us have even been here from the start and stayed.

This latest tsunami has been largely predicted and anticipated. Quim, Reggie, the Council(s) and many other community members have been at work for the better part of a year to prepare for it, making changes to dampen the shock, including the move from ITT to TMO.

Yes, it's something of an unruly brawl right now, as it was then, and it's always at its worst between the announcement of a new model and its actual availability, with people spinning their wheels in expectation.

I guess things will settle down again when committed users actually have the gizmo in their hands, and most observers and passers-by have left for greener pastures. The new equilibrium will be different from the previous ones, but that's only normal.

So just stay with us through the brawl until we inaugurate the brand new saloon :-)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Can I be the dancer in the fancy frock?

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Of course ! I'm sure Texrat, if duly pressured, could whip out a convincing French cancan for the occasion :-)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

That would be a no. :p

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

That would be because I haven't started applying the pressure yet...

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Just edited http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/aggregate_your_blog/

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

as someone who also has a zaurus and been watching that community fade away, I can say it's better to have "too many" people join (even if they ask the same old questions and don't know how to search) than it is for everyone to be old, jaded and bored and the community slowly wither away.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Honestly, I don't see the big problem. Before it was easier to just follow the New Posts list and pick the interesting topics (for you). Now even that becomes complicated.

In practice I'm sticking more to whatever comes to Community, Brainstorm, Development and Harmattan, with some look at Maemo 5 if there is extra time. Others will find their own preferred subforums. Most of the not-very-productive posts actually are concentrated in General, N900 and Off-Topic.

It is also expected that more signal activity will move to Brainstorm once it's in good shape.

Some months ago it was clear that people needed an announcement, now it's clear that people need a sales start, then at some point people probably will need a software update, then perhaps will be the time for missing Harmattan announcements... That's fine, and it's part of the own growth and maturity process. Nothing we were not expecting and nothing we shouldn't be really happy about!

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I'm sticking to New Posts. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, but he can learn to filter better himself :-)

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Kathy i'd really appreciate it if you stayed, cause you ask the questons that i don't.

Cheers ears

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

The one person I argue the most with is my Wife. But we have been together now for nearly 20 years. We argue because we care. God help the day when we go to silence.

Mike C

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Yes, but if she started babbling incoherently for days on end, you might start to feel differently.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

You mean some of them don't??

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I'm with Quim here, the "noise" really isn't exactly unexpected, and if you avoid the (obviously) noisy threads, you find that most of the forum remains civilised.

Honestly, if I was waiting for an N900 like the most of the "noisy" posters, I'd probably be a lot noisier too, or I'd just be avoiding the forums completely.

Just a little point on the "delayed again" comment. There has been only one official delay -- the N900 was coming out in October, and now it is coming out in November. All the rest is pure speculation by bored and frustrated posters hassling people who really have no idea about any of this stuff and taking the random things they say like gospel.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Kathy,

its been a month since this post.
Have you got anything to add in what you have seen, would there be anything you want to bring up in Barcelona and perhaps have a real brainstorming session over beers etc whilst there?

i'm up for a drink if it helps improve the experience for all.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

one additional thing.
I just spoke about this in irc
we have currently posts throughout the forum with Thanks attributed to them
now of course, some might just be w000t yeah calls and silly things, but what if we did something like slashdot.
the normal view of tmo forums was in a moderated mode and only showed thanked postings in the threads.

nice and simple (theoretically) it should just be changing the sql from all posts to all posts with thanks.

it would be a really easy way to see if the forum would work with moderation and could be done without ny new data structures being added (initially) or changes to the normal way we work.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Slashdot balances it with "negative thanks" too, and normal browsing shows the articles with 0 moderation.

If you show only those with +1 or greater moderation, a dilemma arises: How do new posts ever get thanked, if most don't see them?

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

jjx, i'm only considering it an easy test.
to see if it can work or looks right etc.
can deal with the -ve stuff later
and just like slashdot, logged in users can show all/show default
in this place it can be as simple as a single toggle

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

Indeed, it might be worth a try. The impression I got from when Slashdot were introducing, refining and talking about their system was that there are subtleties in making it create the community / discussion environment that you want.

In particular, most people browse with filtering on and the highest ratings first, to cut out the noise, but that means people tend to give +1 ratings to posts which already have high ratings, creating a sort of bandwagon effect, and additional insightful posts to a thread tend to get missed if they aren't early on.

Slashdot recommends (or at least they used to - I haven't been there for ages) that people browse with filtering off from time to time for that reason - to make sure that good posts are found and picked up. I don't know if people bother, though.

I've no objection to trying things out and seeing how it goes.

Re: Talk Maemo: noise to signal ratio
 

I for one would love to see the Slashdot comment system here. I would love to have complex, branching, threaded replies, where you can only pay attention to sub-threads that interest you, and a fine-grained democratic "crowdsourced" moderation system.

But I don't see how we can make that work for the reason that jjx mentioned (I've got to stop agreeing with jjx, people might start to wonder), and also we're not set up to moderate comments properly here ("Thanks" is much too blunt an instrument).