talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

... or "fora", as you wish.

What is your feeling about the proliferation of Maemo related community sites in several languages?

Do you think it's worth considering the creation of subforums or paralel forums for languages other than English within the maemo.org domain?

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

No.

While I believe having places for people to be able to discuss Maemo in their native language is a great thing, the real problem is that a lot of the people with the real information just don't speak those languages... so those forums will end up with a lot of crap that isn't correct/isn't true... and I don't think that having that sort of misinformation going on in the official Maemo forums does anything to help our reputation.

People speaking other languages most likely already have a place they like to go to talk about their phones anyways... so unless there's a native speaker that knows what he's talking about is moderating or contributing to it... I just don't see what we can bring to the table by having it under the Maemo.org banner.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

i think subforums is the way to go as it will make it all easier to manage and it will make it easier to cross communicate with other languages for getting things done

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

My opinion is there are enough user forums already (déjà vu :) )

Most of them are either spinoffs of Symbian user forums, and thus the posts there mostly consist in spreading lies (as zerojay said) or asking when is it released.

I'm missing more interesting/hacking/development forums though.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

if i was a Chinese speaking symbian user i'd be feeling pissed off right now,
in your two's own words non English speakers and symbian users dont know crap and spread incorrect stuff.
do you even have a idea how offensive you sound

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Um... no. You need to reread what I said above. If you really think I said "all non-English speakers and Symbian users don't know crap and spread incorrect stuff", then you really need to learn how to read.

What I did say is that the most engaged community members with the most information generally will NOT be on those forums to correct anyone saying incorrect stuff.

You're just attempting to find something offensive to complain about, apparently. I know, why not make stuff up?

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

the people with the real information don't even speak english as there first language so your point is truly not valid.
if the subforums or whatever are moderated well then misinformation will get recognised and corrected.
this is a English speaking forum and I've seen just as much bs misinformation on it what people correct so i don't see how language as anything to do with wrong info
its not that i'm trying to pick a fight just the way the two posts came across is like you think people who can speak english or use maemo instead of symbian are superior in knowledge to others, which i found offensive

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

About "a lot of the people with the real information just don't speak those languages"... if you go through threads with 'real information' you will find easily people whose native langauge is German, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian...

To me the question is whether those guys would be happy following more or less those forums in their language.

What if there would be a light process e.g. needs to be requested by nn maemo.org users, with n of them having at least nnn posts/karma.

I mean, "being open to normal users" also has an implicit multilingual approach. Expecting that developers manage some English is OK-ish (even if this is more true for reading than writing) but making the same assumption about users...

Another way will to look at it is: forums elsewhere will happen anyway so breeding them will help more or less the Maemo community?

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I'm Spanish, and I use just this website (maemo.org, talk, downloads, wiki) and mailing lists to know about Maemo. All this amount of info is in English, and, for me, it works as a first barrier, by separating those Spanish users who can write/understand/both English, from those who rather can't.

While this has some advantages (the Spanish users capable of participating are quite skilled), it also has a major drawback: most average users (what I read you call Joe-average user) aren't good enough at English to get the best from this website.

Creating subforums (sub-fora) may lead to separate, and we may lose accuracy. Maybe there should be some way to provide translations for the more important info (official news, announcements, etc).

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

its a choice between
1.people who don't speak English not participating at all
or
2.participating in there own language in sub forums

I go for two as its best to compromise than lose talented people we never knew
As long as the mods can speak fluent English who will moderate a certain language and are pretty knowledgeable anything lost in translation can easily be corrected

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I said nothing at all about Symbian, so please, don't paint me with the same brush. Second, do you go to many phone forums? If you do, you'd know and understand the misinformation that happens in them. Yes, sometimes that same thing happens here too... it's not always avoidable, but it pales compared to what you see in those other places.

If you find that offensive, don't complain about those of us pointing it out. Go complain about the people spreading that misinformation instead.

-

Major announcements can and should be translated into as many languages as possible. We clearly have a very multilingual user base that seems to enjoy helping out wherever possible so getting them to translate that shouldn't be too hard.

-

I honestly wouldn't really mind if we had subforums for other languages except for the fact that - completely ignoring the misinformation thread - maemo.org, as a whole, is having enough trouble staying alive and usable. Yes, so far Talk has avoided that issue... but will we have the infrastructure available to handle having... say... another 5000 Spanish users, 5000 French and so on.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

i never said you said anything about symbian, i've made it clear i've been talking about two posts by two different people all along.
i'm quitting the bs here as we started to argue over something that may or may not happen which is pointless lets try and be productive instead

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

The infrastructure is funded by Nokia and if it's slow it's not because of lack of funds. Increasing those funds based on evident activity increase is totally fine with us. We want to help maemo.org being a successful 'home of the Maemo community'.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I agree on that.

From reading qgil, I think the technical issues are a different subject: we should discuss first if we should go this way or not.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

(Sorry, my previous post could be confusing too).

Why not just keep a few threads with links to "proper" in-your-language forums?

As said, I don't believe just having a in-your-language forum here will be that helpful. Unless it's a "kinda-pro-user" forum (and I would like that -- in fact, I've been considering setting one of those up).

EDIT: IMHO I don't think there will be any load problems. I don't expect this to get filled with international users from day 1. More like a measly 1% of the number of English users.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Last I saw a large percentage (20 something % I believe) of iTT's hits were from German speakers. ITT did pretty well with out additional sub-forums.

It has been my experience that the wider your "store front" (sub-forums) the smaller your "inventory" per store (depth of information). More sub-forums also make the forum harder to manage.

I agree that "another way will to look at it is: forums elsewhere will happen anyway so breeding them" will have an effect on the Maemo community. However, that effect can also be negative.

The thing that most makes me cringe when reading misleading or false Maemo information elsewhere is a preceding statement of "I read on maemo.org., blah, blah, blah".
Spreading the maemo.org fora footprint to wide may make managing the "message" more difficult. We could eventually find pockets or sub-forums in disagreement or posting contrary information than other sub-forums... and not even know it. :eek:

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

NvyUs and zerojay, please step outside and solve your dispute.
Personally, i'm against. English is the language of the internet, just like http is what you use if you want to see a webpage. Because generally PR people are required to speak at least english, i think there are really few people that could add more information but can't because of the language barrier. Keep in mind that normal developer employees are barred by NDAs from revealing anything important (right, nokia people?).
Sure, maybe some independent devs would have it easier if they could chat in their own languages. There's nothing stopping them from creating their own unofficial communities. But i don't think they will get very far without basic grasp of english (because, let's face it, we're not writing shakespeare here, so no one really needs advanced skills)
So, bottom line: everything official in english only. This would create a "master" message to compare against. Since there are certainly more than 2 english speakers in any other language community, distortions are easy to fix by using the english original. And sub-communities (preferably not affiliated to maemo.org to avoid confusion) all you want

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Just for sanity, do you mind disclosing your native language(s) when posting here. It can be that people mostly in favour tend to be mostly non-native English speakers and viceversa.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

@MrGrim English is no longer the language of the internet last weeks announcement is proof of that http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8333194.stm

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

<Native Language = Canadian English eh ;)>

I think I speak for many here when I say that maemo.org would be receptive to accomodating non-English speaking users. We all want Maemo to be successful in as many hands as possible.

With respect to the sub-fora for other languages. I would much rather see something like a translation built into the site. Then users can specify their preferred language. All their interactions with the site are then in their own language. This makes the whole thing flow as one unit, rather than creating further layers and divisions. I do not know if this is technically possible, and obviously the quality of the translation would be a key factor in the success of this approach.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_...n_the_Internet

Check that list against the list of countries where the N900 will be sold and you will get a quite accurate list of languages that already have Maemo forums or a looking for having one.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Why not do a trial run of maybe 1 or 2 subforums then decide after the period to expand or drop the idea.
maybe during the trial choose a language what we know we already have many natives of on here and one that seems not so poplar then we can see how good it would be at attracting new members of that language

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Dear Friends,

I personally support the idea of native speaker, maemo.org censored, fora. Since I am only a power user, I do not have much to add in the english section. But I could prove useful in condensing/translating useful materials in french and italian (where I am native speaker) and performing general moderator task.

In fact, the target of non English fora could be the end users rather than developers. These fora could be a first step toward a multilingual maemo.org, containing the most relevant infos and tutorials. I know there is already a user forum at nokia.com (only in English). Here instead, we could focus more on advanced support (à la MER or ssh, not talking about "how do I turn on the device").

All the Best
Matyas (real name: Mattia)

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I wonder if there might be a way of doing both and neither.

Right now, as qgil has said, there's a proliferation of maemo related communities. It's a hot topic.

On the other hand, this place is the 'Official', nokia sponsored place not only for fora but both all things maemo.

I'm hearing concern that Other Places might spread misinformation (which would be bad for maemo generally) and concern that multi-lingual subfora would drain much needed resources from maemo.org (which would be bad for this place).

What about inviting them to some sort of 'link exchange'? If we have speakers of most languages around, they might do a once over now and again of a 'non-nokia' site to check for obvious garbage? The other site would gain the kudos of an official link to the 'nokia funded' site. We would gain a nice collection of foreign language companions - who will most likely be end-user orientated. And enough leverage to ***** at them if they pass something as gospel that is pure apochrypha (like, say, a release date...)

Would that help the problem?

(My first language is gibberish)

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Well .. my opinion about this Idea is that will not be a good Idea !!

I will try to explain as much as I could and I hope that my English vocabulary will help me :D

1. The more customization & specialization the more better . When you focus on a lot of things you will lost your focusing . Lots of forums at the same place will make the users and the visitors unconvertible .

2. It will make more pressure to the administrators

3. It will give the Non-English Speakers less area to discuss all aspects of the Maemo OS .

I think this is the major causes to not agree with the Idea .

But the good thing on the Idea that it will make some people feels good that Maemo community care about them :cool:


When every language has its separated website , the problems above will be resolved . so , they will have there own main forums and blog as well as the Programs Download Center :D


qgil شكرا جزيلا

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I think sub-fora in other languages is a good idea. I see other fora springing up, for example where I live in Sweden there is now http://maemosverige.com "Maemo Sweden"

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I think that there should be some way to fit non-English speaking users in talk.maemo.org. How can someone complain that non-english users have wrong information when one of the main sources of info is in a language they don't understand?

Of course that another language may be outside of the comfort zone of many people here, but I think there is going to be always a couple of guys willing to bridge the gap. I would help: my native language is Spanish, and I would love to do my part spreading more of the official word, instead of having to fight daily rumors and misinformation from third sources (like I already do).

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I am new to that sub-fora places spread misleading and bad information so much as you say. What type of misinfo is this usually? I personally will try to backup everything I write with a link to a credible site and I am a fanboy of Maemo and open-source so I would not try to write bad things about Maemo or Nokia.. and if someone report that I got some facts wrong I would apologize and correct it public..

What goes on in the forums is harder to control but that is the right for free speech.

I think this maemo.org site might spread misleading info about the iphone however ;)

French, spanish, chinese and other huge languages would probably benefit from subforums here I think..

If Nokia decides MaemoSverige and other unofficial webistes is a less good thing for Nokia/Maemo please tell me..

Maybe a legal notice of some sort in the footer would be good. Saying MaemoSverige has nothing to do with official Nokia..... ?

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I'd rather have a subforum here in my native language [spanish] than go out there hunting for other forums of dubious quality, which I don't since one forum is enough for me and I'm comfortable enough in english.
To those of you who defend only-english, I say that you are forcing out a whole lot of people who don't know english, and no, internet is far from only-english nowadays.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Well, it is complicated to say whether other language forums are needed.

Since I understand only two languages - Bulgarian and English, forums with different languages than these above wouldn't be understandable to me.

If there is a valuable to me content in these other forums I will miss it. This option sounds like a separation and I am definitely against it.

If the content is just translated and people discuss it in their most convenient language it is OK. This will bring additional people to the table and make it more accessible.

Still the way things are now is ok. I am pretty sure I won't see a Bulgarian sub-forum. The problems is that you have to read my crappy English. :D

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

It's not about not wanting other people to speak whatever language they want in subforums. If there's a German subforum, I don't care... I just know that I won't go there and there's going to be a lot of people who are trusted within the Maemo community who won't. Native German speakers who aren't comfortable with English won't go to the main forums very often.

The problem is when User X goes into the German subforum and says "the N920 has an 8 inch screen". Maybe someone's around that knows better, maybe there's not. Suddenly it becomes accepted knowledge that the N920 has an 8 inch screen in the German subforum. N920 is announced... and suddenly there's nothing but complaining. "They said it was 8 inch! What a dealbreaker!"

If we can't guarantee that the information given on maemo.org is correct... what makes a language subforum here any better than anywhere else? Of course, we can't even really do that on the English forum either.

Just a thought... go ahead and start the other language subforums though because in the end, it won't affect me all that much anyways... hopefully.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

What did I say about comfort zone?

Of course an extra effort will be needed. People knowledgeable that know more than one language will have to help a lot.

But I think it is worth it.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I think the complimentary Maemo communities will have their own solutions, like Symbian Freak has a Croatian forum. There will be language centric sites that will fill the void. Please keep this English only, like most developer sites. I'd be afraid if the administration had to add more on its plate. Its tough enough as it is managing what is already here in one language...

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

On other sites, I have seen a few Americans become very hostile to people who speak foreign languages. Their attitude is, "this is America, speak English!" Of course, this is not America, this is cyberspace; we know this, because this is a very international group.

Even here, I have seen people become angry at someone's turn of phrase or tone in English that made it clear to me that the angry people didn't really get that they were dealing with someone whose command of English was imperfect.

So I think it would be great for there to be forums for non-English speakers here. I'm confident that there are plenty of competent techs in all major languages, and when it becomes known that language-specific forums exist here, they will come, if they aren't here already.

I'm a native English-speaker.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I am also against this idea.

Rather then deciding of making a new forum , I suggest making maemo/wiki in different langs.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

I disagree, and for this reason. If you keep this forum English only, everyone can work together. The bigots and insensitive folks not used to people that don't speak English as a primary language will figure it out over time, just as they did on Symbian Freak. If you seperate the languages, different locales will become splinter groups, and will not always work with other groups as much.

Leave that to the specialty and local sites. There are already multiple Maemo communities based in various countries. Let them decide if they want a seperate forum for their own languages. We should remain focused on the global language of tech, which is English (hope I'm not overstepping here, but many tech guys feel this is the way to go.).

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Chris, while I don't agree fully with your ideas, I thank you as your objection is the first I read that is well explained and as such enriches the discussion.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Chciałbym zauważyć iż maemo.org powinno również stanowić miejsce w którym ludzie nie mówiący po angielsku mogą znaleźć pomoc. Nie możemy ich dyskryminować ze względu na język. N900 stanie się (mam nadzieje) bardziej popularnym urządzeniem niż N8x0 i powinniśmy zapewnić wsparcie co najmniej dla oficjalnie wspieranych języków (przez Nokie dla N900). Nie chodzi o toczenie dyskusji jak się to teraz dzieje tylko pomoc i udzielanie odpowiedzi na forum narodowym. Proponuję żeby osoby które już obecne w społeczności maemo.org i mówiące w tych językach zgłosiły się jako kandydaci na moderatorów.


And this is the link for those who do not speak Polish:) Pretty good translation.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

It really doesn't matter if many techs feel that English is the way to go. As I can testify, many people in the world have no real understanding that everyone doesn't speak the language they speak. Language specific forums would be for those people, and the techs would have a place, too. There are undoubtedly many people who have not posted here who could make this an even more universal group.

(And "separate" is how you spell that word!)

No one is saying that people who don't have a good command of English can't post in the English-language forums, but where should people post who don't have a good command of English? I have seen people who obviously only understood much Spanish post here to almost total incomprehension. There didn't happen to be any fluent Spanish-speakers around, which is ridiculous.

Re: talk.maemo.org vs non-English forums
 

Yes, it's very easy for people speaking a second language to accidentally get on people's nerves with how they say what they are saying and very often they are just using the wrong word. I know that when I first started learning French, my French boss was kind of freaked out and said that I came across as a very aggressive person which is far from the case (at least face-to-face).

Anyone here on maemo.org should try to understand that they are dealing with people whose first language may not be English and be a bit more understanding. I think it's awesome that we get so many people here who at least try in English even if they aren't good at it.

If enough people think we need language subforums... go ahead, I guess.