Religious talk...
 

I think this should be an ok topic here. Not sure why Reggie killed the other thread. I like real intellectual topics. Here's the reply I didn't get to make, and if anyone wants the math trick, let me know PM.

Look, everyone. I didn't want to start a melee. I can discuss it privately, or if you want, start another thread and we'll discuss it. I'm sure we've all been told many things, but none of you know my religious affiliation, my theocratic training, or the proof I've yet to show any of you. I don't like to waste my time, and since I'm a cursing, fighting, sometimes mean thug and not always a good spiritual example, I don't want to give the Word a bad name, and prefer that we keep it private, but will share with you guys if you insist.

Not when the book was written 3500 years beforehand. And I'm not talking blanket claims, but dates, years, and actual events, down to the month. I'm not the typical Bible thumper, and think TD Jakes, Robert Tilton, and Kenneth Copeland are big crooks. I'm a Bible student, nothing more. Be skeptical, but don't assume you've "heard it all before", because I doubt you do.

Wow! I haven't even made a single point as to what events are predicted. I have to say you've made a rushed judgement without allowing me to speak. You assume I don't know anything you haven't already heard, but I'm sure I do. Have you even read the entire Bible? Studied the translations, Greek Septugiant, and even ancient scrolls like the Nabonidus Stone, Dead Sea Scrolls, and Hezekiah Scrolls? Do you know the origin of the knowledge you do have of the Bible? Don't blame me for those that fed you BS. It is your responsibility to make sure your knowledge is accurate, and I've done just that. I'm not asking that I be trusted, just listened to. I rarely am, since today's man is trivial about spiritual matters...

But I clearly said my proof was scientific and mathematic, so I obviously am not about to tell you whatever "proofs" you've heard. I'm a pretty smart cat, and a voracious reader, so at least know I don't speak without having read and studied plenty on the subject.

I didn't get into MMA without rigorous training, mobiles without alot of research, and religion without studying. You sound exactly like the guys the Wright Bros. told about their airplane, and they were proven wrong, too, even though other attemps to fly had failed miserably. Don't judge a book by its cover.

Its only dangerous for a neophyte or those not well versed in Scriptural matters. You assume I'm going to tell you the typical BS most "preachers" spew, but I promise I'm beyond repeating crap they say to get paid. I have no interest in fooling anyone.

@ CrashandDie,
You make a small error in your post. You speak of things that can't be proven. I speak in things of math and public historic record, things already proven as fact, even law, in the case of the mathematics. I really want to prove this fact to you most of all. So answer this:
If I can give you a Bible, and from the information in it, you can create a date timeline, and predict the exact year of an event in the 20th century, along with the description of the events taking place, would your mind be any bit changed? Because if you could predict the day someone's child would be born 2-3k years ahead of time, as well as the people in the room and what they'd be doing and wearing, and the child's name, I'd instantly find your abilities to be divine.

I don't diss other religious books at all. Most supply good ways of life to follow. But I'm only talking of the supernatural abilities presented by the Bible that no other book can prove in a similar fashion. No book has anything special that couldn't have been written by any common man but the Bible. I'm very open to being proven wrong. Its not arrogance, its confidence. I already told you it predicts events of the 20th century centuries ahead of time. SPECIFIC events. Know any other books written 3k years ago that does the same? Don't mock the Book or my views. Challenge them, but don't mock. I'm confident God can handle any scrutiny you have. Its so tacky and irreverant to mock without hearing anything I've said. Assume starts with a** with U right in the middle, but you'll find ME in the end.

BTW, Genesis has no contradictions. Some translations changed the wording for their own motives, but a scholarly education of the Bible and its books will easily expose the discrepancies. I prefer to not use the King James Bible for this reason, but I reference many translations so you know I'm on my stuff, not just scratching the surface. You make many errors in your supposed contradictions, but we can discuss those whenever you wish. I'd love to clear them up. Sounds to me you've read Bibles without confirming the translation integrity, which is an issue.

The story of the man offering up his daughter and concubine is pretty accurate, but misses the Greek word for word translation where they wanted the man to rape HIM! It was talking about the sexual debauchery and cheapness that had begun to prevail in the land of Gibeah. There is no reason to defend history, no more than to defend the killing of brothers, incest, and other things in the Bible. Its told for a reason, to teach, not to glamourize.

I haven't told you the future prediction with math thing, so you can keep talking, but I think once I do, you will have more questions than mockeries. You have SOME knowledge, but not much. For instance, what is hell? Do you know? Can you tell me? I doubt you do, but humor me. I sounded a little rude, but I meant it all with a smile, and not with any ill will. Many think they know the Bible, but only know what they've been taught or heard. Most Christians are taught false teachings and Pagan practices from the Constantine Convention of Nicea, not the Bible.

I do accept others' choices and beliefs, just like I'm accepting of homosexuality for others. I don't believe its right, and don't follow the same lifestyle, but I tolerate and accept them as people, in typical true Christian fashion.

@ Zerojay, there are plenty of dates in the Bible. There are many historical figures and events in the Bible, and dates of their documented births, wars, construction, etc, can be used as markers to tabulate dates. You learn in school when the Medians and Persians go to war, when certain kings take the throne, etc. Its not so hard to figure dates if you read from a historical perspective. This isn't something most do, though.

Aphex, before you condemn or qualify my faith, wouldn't it be best to know what it is? What do I believe that must obviously be garnered from books and brainwashing? And knowing me, do I seem like someone easily brainwashed? Maybe my childhood and years in prison were spent doing more than riding bikes, watching cartoons, picking cotton and lifting weights. I'm aware of the misuse of the Bible, but I guess you think you're the only one. I know "religions" from my personal study, and it was a deep, thorough study. And the Bible has been preserved, and finding the changes is easy if you study old manuscripts found. And the "hell" of suffering doesn't exist, so you know. Sheol, Hades, and Gahenna are three words translated as "hell", but none mean anything about punishment or torture. Look it up...

Thanks for that post, lschumanfcoe. Respect and tolerance are a lost art. I like to have discussions where there is an exchange, but I haven't said one word about my beliefs other than I'm obviously a Christian and believe in the original Bible. I'd like to have my beliefs attacked AFTER they've been exposed, not before. I'm anxious to see a reaction after they figure out the dates and stuff.

And FYI mullf, in prison, you have Wiccans, Satanists, Rastafari, Jews, Polyamourous faiths, blood letters, snake worshipers, naturists, and more free to worship their religion. In the US, you can pretty much do anything but hurt children, rape others, and injure or kill folks in the name of religion, and your actions have alot of protections.

Re: Religious talk...
 

Interesting topic.

As you have a lot of knowledge, one thing has always confused me in the bible. Why was the plural Hebrew word "elohim" translated to the singular in the modern western world ? I've never understood that especially as there is a passage which has God (should this be plural?) turning to the Council of Gods.

I'd be interested to hear what you've found out.

Re: Religious talk...
 

The only thing I'm interested in, does the Bible predict the shipping date of the N900? If so, when will I get mine?

Re: Religious talk...
 

and i'll be interested to get that bible app so i can read up on it and gain more knowledge... especially the unreleased and original manuscripts that Chris has read.

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If God is real why did he invent atheists, he is not that clever after all.

Re: Religious talk...
 

I call shenanigans.

There is no proof. End of story.

No need to pm me about it either.

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PM sent........waiting..........

Re: Religious talk...
 

heres a good video of proof god is real http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAcIOWTIaQw

Re: Religious talk...
 

Amen, brotha!

Re: Religious talk...
 

שלום

Dont really want to get into this, but I have 25 years of full time bible learning (in the original hebrew in which im fluent, plus aramaic texts that comment on it) and a degree in religious studies, plus I taught kabbalah for a number of years.

There are countless flaws all over the old testament and it in no way can be considered authoritative. This includes dates, nations, people, places and many other mistakes.

@Thor - The reason elohim is in the plural appears to be due to the polytheistic nature of religion in the near east in ancient times. The Israelites chose their god 'El' to be the one who was the most powerful god of the pantheon. This is the jehovah of the old testament.

I personally am against religious discussions taking place in these forums - the signal to noise ratio has become terrible already, and religion is one of those things that is very easy to offend/anger/annoy people with. People are free to practice whatever they like, but its best to keep religious views to oneself in public forums like this (even in offtopic).

Just my 2 cents....

Re: Religious talk...
 

I don't really care of the supposed predictions, since I totally don't believe they're predictions, and I'd like to stay out of the debate since I've seen too many threads like this become long without any solution or anybody changing his idea, but wanted to share this link:
http://listverse.com/2007/11/12/top-...-coincidences/

Found it compatible with the "predictions" subject, and funny to read ^^
Bye

Re: Religious talk...
 

I didn't see the other thread so I'm not sure what this is continuing from, but I assume that anyone who has read accurate predictions about the future has made HUGE piles of money on the stock market...

Re: Religious talk...
 

Relax Chris.

You would be utterly amazed with how much Bible reading and research, core and ancillary, I've conducted over the decades. Yes, that includes Dead Sea Scrolls and even the Kabbalah, Apocrypha, Gnostic Gospels, Babylonian mythology, etc. You're making the same mistake you're accusing me of making. ;)

What I'm calling pre-emptive BS on is not your treatment of the subject (you jumped just a bit too quickly there Chris) but the concept of "scientifically proving God" itself. Science can certainly suggest the existence of God (a la the Anthropic Principle and related philsosophical memes) but it can neither prove nor disprove the existence of an unseen higher spiritual power. All of these arguments are instead philosophical.

Wikipedia treats the subject objectively:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God

Re: Religious talk...
 

Ahhh... someone whose brain I'd like to pick. I'm sure you get as big a chuckle as I do out of these debates that focus on the literal bible-- knowing all the while there's the allegorical, metaphorical and esoteric layers to pierce. I'm into the last and, hoo boy, does it rock one's world! Talk about revelations! ;)

Re: Religious talk...
 

i'm a complete n00b and when i first saw your avatar i knew it.

love this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwzTMgwKSt4

Re: Religious talk...
 

2 things:

1. That might be racist.

2. LMFAO |||(not at the racism, at the link)|||

Re: Religious talk...
 

"But I clearly said my proof was scientific and mathematic."

Chris, just post it here. This is a kosher off-topic thread. I'm optimistic that everyone will behave themselves, and if not, I'm guessing texrat can help take care of the problem children. Let it rip.

Re: Religious talk...
 

YES, *please* please please *PLEASE* post this mathematical proof that God exists. I'm in dire need of a few laughs right now.

Re: Religious talk...
 

He didn't promise that the proof wasn't 4,000 pages long... There may be good reasons not to post it here.

Re: Religious talk...
 

I hope the proof is not too long. I like the parsimonious ones. The kind that mathematicians refer to as being "in the book." :)

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Come on, guys. There is NO proof, not even the chance of it.

Talking about it won't make a bit of difference.

Re: Religious talk...
 

Re: Religious talk...
 

As a fellow christian, I'm a bit skeptical on the existence of some kind of proof... I've been through all the "proofs" and interesting as they are, they're just as unconvincing as the arguments against His existence.

I highly doubt there's some end-all-doubt proof.

The predictions sound interesting and only interesting. I haven't rendered any personal judgement on any prediction aspect.

Please do share here, though. I'm interested and while I'm not impossible to offend, I haven't met anyone able to do so yet.

Re: Religious talk...
 

Chris, I can think of one book, written before the bible, that predicts the future. Google the "I Ching"....now theres a good read.

Re: Religious talk...
 

Why are you guys talking about outdated buggy firmwares?

Re: Religious talk...
 

There are a few very interesting scientific experiments going on to explore whether there isn't rather more to the nature of consciousness and human existence than the mere material. Qole quoted one in the other thread about people praying for plants. They've done the same with heart patients. There are quiet corners of science exploring (and getting statiscally significant result for) telepathy, distant mental influence of living systems, even a rather nice experiment at Oxford looking at NDEs and trying to check them out.

None of which will 'prove God' - but they may (if taken seriously) go a long way towards suggesting that a purely materialistic view of existence and humanity is incomplete. They may even go some way towards supporting a view that human consciousness is not dependent on the body, and so could 'survive death',

My opinion is that in addition to the 'scientific' evidence, there's a huge amount of qualitative, anecdotal evidence: religions are culture's way of codifying that into something that makes sense. (And along the way, religions get badly used as a way of controlling, exploiting and abusing people sometimes - just like any good thing). In that sense, you 'pick' the one that most fits with your own experience. Unfortunately, as your experience is internal and non-communicable, that doesn't make it 'provable'. "I believe in God because I've met him" is a damned good reason for me, but pissing in the wind for you unless you have had the same experience.

One interesting statistic: religious belief and practice is very strongly correlated with better health, longer life-expectancy and higher contentment/satisfaction. In fact, if a chemical produced the same stats, it wouldn't be sold over the counter, it would be put in the water supply. ;)

Re: Religious talk...
 

I think the issue is that somebody claims that the buggy firmware actually contains support for new features, but they've been just commented out in the code. I'm looking forward to hearing how to supposedly compile it with support for rational thinking, but yeah, I agree, the code is just too old and should be dumped. Too many non-rational legacy features that nobody uses anymore. Even the remaining users seem to cherry-pick what they like and ignore the rest.

But anyway, go on Chris, this should be interesting.

Re: Religious talk...
 

So, have the plants answered? Or do they continue holding it back in terms of interspecies communication?

Re: Religious talk...
 

Praying for plants, not to them. ;)

You injust two sets of plants (I believe they soak seeds in saline solution). One set you pray for their recovery, the other you don't. If the prayed for group recover quicker then the control or grow better,you have a result. ;)

Re: Religious talk...
 

There's an article on this, in a book that's a bit older than Wikipedia (and one of my all-time favorites)...

Re: Religious talk...
 

The way you are describing it, the plants should be praying to you, to spare them from the scourge. Has anyone researched into this subject? There may be some artifacts to confirm the cult of humans among plants, like altars built by plants for their human gods, plant sacrificial rites, etc... Do plants ingest other plants (like marijuana) to get closer to their deities and achieve enlightenment?

Re: Religious talk...
 

There's more than adequate evidence for "religion", but only if one accepts the possibility that one's assumptions are wrong; specifically, the assumption that the senses of touch, taste, smell, hearing and sight are the only ones we have available to us.

My belief in God and my religion's tenets are the result of following the scientific method while challenging said assumptions. This is hinted at in the Bible e.g. Galatians 5:22.

Re: Religious talk...
 

Being a scientist I understand the processes that are required to statistically prove the validity of a hypothesis within an experiment. Saying that statistics is still flawed, especially if used incorrectly. Furthermore without repetition of the experiment by third parties it is still not absolute proof. There can still be confounds within the experimental paradigm. I will reserve judgment, but will just say that the simplest explanation is often the best.

Re: Religious talk...
 

<ot>
Did you watch the movie, if so and were you as disappointed as I was with it?
</ot>

@ Kathy and Chris: As a former (rather strongly believing) Catholic I always held that trying to "prove" the (non)existence of a God/god/gods is doomed to failure. I personally believe that there is as much proof (= bugger all) for the existence of a God/god/gods as there is for his/her/its/their nonexistence. In my opinion, proof of existence actually removes an essential element from the religious experience.
In any case, I choose to believe in the causality of nature and the mechanical nature of the universe and, in my opinion, that automatically excludes a deity in the Judeo-Christian tradition. As I said, I have no proof on which to base my decision and I would not want one.

Re: Religious talk...
 

It is easy to make the Bible predict this. Unfortunately, it is only possible to do this retrospectively, i.e. after the fact. You don't have to use the Bible, however. The latest Terry Pratchett novel, for example, will do nicely too. It's only a matter of adjusting the algorithm.

Re: Religious talk...
 

No, I didn't see it. I'd heard how awful it was and so I avoided it. I couldn't bear to watch yet another of my Sacred Texts desecrated by the greasy paws of Hollywood. The most egregious desecration, a metaphorical "pissing in the baptismal font," was, for me, the movie "I, Robot" with Will Smith that did exactly the opposite of what Asimov was trying to achieve with his Robot stories. After that blasphemy, I will only watch a movie version of a favorite author's work if I read several good reviews from like-minded geeks.

Re: Religious talk...
 

omg ..................

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Thanks, +1 ;)

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I do not know about that one, but I have heard about studies. They say that there seems to be a correlation between intelligence and being religious.
I am not going to say which way it goes, though, as it is so easy to unintentionally upset religious people. They seem to tend to react irrationally, sometimes.

Re: Religious talk...
 

Well for some reason, the "no religious or political topics" description for Off-topic was removed when the itT forums were converted to TMO. It's back up. Thanks for reminding me.

Thread closed.