Droid and Android gaming irony
 

A year ago I predicted that Android's byte code translation layer would make it impossible for even a GBC game emulator to play smooth with sound. Based on people trying to use the SDK as designed, that turned out to be correct but, a few geniuses out there figured out how to get around some of the obstacles by using C++.

Thanks to Droid and the great 3430 chipset, as of today, Droid plays the following games systems full speed with sound with every game I have thrown at them (hundreds). Based on sampling of games tried, the emulators on Droid have no equal with game compatibility (until N900 and Pandora get rolling).

1. NES
2. SNES
3. GBA
4. Genesis
5. Sega
6. Game Gear
7. Frodo64
8. MAME (Jarcade was released today for Droid and plays all games I have tried .34 & .35b romsets full speed with sound).

Just need a GBC and Turbografx emu to complete the sweep :)

My point about this is that the 3430 chipset WITH ANDROID plays all of these platforms very well. Just imagine how well the N900 will be with Maemo, no byte code layer and an extra 50mhz will do :eek:

My guess is besides all of the platforms listed above, a PS1 emulator should be very possible as well. DOA, Raiden 2, Devil Dice, Tobal 2 and Crash Racing would be sweet :)

If Droid did not suck for video codecs and the card under the battery thing- it would be a closer competitor to the N900- not to mention the screen size and dimensions are even better than the N900. N900 does have all the other things though, so is tops for gadget nuts.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Except for the fact that it also runs Android. CNN had an article two days ago talking about the exact thing I have been complaining about for weeks. Android is splintering - there are already at least 3 versions in the wild and at least that many customizations of them. Several devs in the article were saying that they are experiencing the same thing as me. The emulators do not reflect the device and they are having to code multiple versions, one for each device

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTBn...layer_embedded

Oh and lets of course not forget that the wii controller can be paired with the n900 to turn it into a proper gaming rig - especially with the TV out

(repeated some of my other post here because it was relevant).

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

As you said, they're using C and assembly already. No byte code layer involded...

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Completely agree! Android's premise of a higher level dev code is a failed one due to constraint of app design and only practical with a limited number of chipsets and display designs.

Droid is a huge headache for devs (you know this as fact).

I am NOT advocating Android, but the fact that with Android / Droid doing so well with gaming platforms, the N900 should be at the very least 30% more efficient.

BTW, help me with the C issue, since you could explain much better how devs are able to make cpu intensive apps like emulators semi-efficient on Android using C. Thanks ;)

My understanding is it is not a complete workaround, but enough resources are involved to offset the CPU from choking. Some of the emus play pretty good on the G1 as well, but are "perfect" on Droid- edit: would be game device level better with good d-pad.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

The real advantage of C is twofold. First memory management. In C the dev is responsible for it you do not rely on the JVM to handle garbage collection and freeing memory. By controlling the memory you gain a much better running app that is more memory efficient (if coded correctly).
Second C is a lower level language than Java it "talks" to the machine with less interpretation.

The main reason the emu's play so much better on the droid is pure hardware grunt. The droid is a considerably beefier machine.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Haha so it's only by bypassing the byte code layer and by using C++ they can truly perform.

Google should take this as a sign to allow apps to work without an byte code layer. >.>

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

THAT is the catch! The lower level the code is, the more reliant it is for resources, thus the specific chipset parameters indigenous to the device. This is the key reason iPhone is so much better with games, the SDK is lower level due to only two chipsets and displays to worry about.

This is why All the emulators had to be "refreshed" to work on Droid. There is also a great Final Burn / Neo Geo app called Android Arcade. That was heavy with C, so the dev said it will be a while to rewrite some of it. A TON of great games run on that app :)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

But the problem with that approach is you lose the cross-compatibility with other devices. But, yeah I do hope Android takes this approach. Maybe java for less resource hungry apps but have outside applications on a per-device basis.

If so then one thing that annoys me about Android goes away.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/11/...red/index.html

link to the article I was mentioning.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Nails it real good!

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Hi noobs.

nice to meet you. I have been working with others to get fast emulators to tablets since the 770.

To get a fast emu onto a device you have to

a) push 50-60 fps scaled blits vsynched to screen at low cpu cost

b) output stutter-free stereo sound at 22khz or better at low cpu cost.

In the case of 770, N800, N810 the former turned out to be not possible.

In the case of N900 jury is still out on the hardware, but we have neither video nor audio support meeting emulator criteria in maemo 5 as it ships.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

I agree with ArnimS here. Anybody who wants fast, playable emulators should stay away from N900. Actually, you should probably go and buy that Droid phone like right now. According to the poster who started this thread, it is perfect for emulation, and the Android is the best software you can have on a smartphone nowadays.

PS: Once you follow my advice, please abstain from starting another "So, I bought a Droid" thread. Ok?
PPS: Hehe ;)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

I am not sure if this post is meant to be sarcastic but there are already a number of well running emulators for the N900 (as shown in my first reply). They run at a perfectly acceptable frame rate, with sound etc.

Of course if that doesnt strike your fancy you could always just run the full version of Quake III on it.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Why are there so many people who act like asses just because they develop something?

Arrogance doesn't help.

Then, why do we need 60fps??? 30fps is just enough for fluid animation. I don't know much about emulation stuff but i am quite sure that the n900 is powerful enough to emulate 90s consoles. Considering the nes(the only platform that i know a little) we have roughly ~100 CPU cycles to emulate a single nes instruction.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Java really isn't as slow as many would make you believe.

http://kano.net/javabench/
http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer...benchmark.html

Certain operations can be slightly faster, whilst others are upto 10% slower. So for many consoles e.g. Snes, Genesis, GBA you should be able to get away with Java.

The G1 managed to emulate the three consoles above rather well.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

FMS (who knows more about emus than everyone else here) you *do* agree with me, but not in this sarcastic way, because i didnt imply or say what you inferred.

You know perfectly well that for years I have been requesting from nokia tablets basic video output at a 1989 level of computer performance. mmk.

---
To call the N900 *fast* for emulators at this point when you know we have nasty bottlenecks in both video and audio is misleading.
---

Zwe can fix N900! Please dont buy an android-only device. It is like buying diapers for yourself and wearing them in public while bragging that you can no longer soil the furniture..

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Note that people MOSTLY don't know what 60fps / playable is.

They say to me "SNES is fully playable on GP2X!" -- so I get to find a GP2X and Mario Kart runs at 7fps.
"OK, but it now runs very fast in the Wiz" -- so I get to find a Wiz and Mario Kart runs at 14fps.
"OK, but on the Pandora it runs at 4 times real speed" -- I'm still trying to find a Pandora.

Somehow I think the Droid story is similar.


And yes, as I've said already on that crazy emulators thread about the Pandora vs N900, the Droid will be probably faster -- there's no byte code layer, no X11, a simpler userspace, etc. Not as speedier as the Pandora should, though.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Yikes!

I simply was pointing out that if Droid can manage good emulation, the N900 should be better, due to not having Android overhead to deal with.

As far as Mario Kart for SNES and GBA, the G1 clocked at 528mhz plays them both at about 40fps with sound. More than adequate for playability. Droid plays them close to 60fps, but the freaking keyboard drives me insane. The alignment of the keys (not staggered) and the top row has only 1/8" of clearance for the display case.

Ironically, the G1's KB is better than Droids. N900 appears to have both the same key alignment and lack of top row clearance that Droid has.

Could be a case of packing a Wii mote with us ;).

BTW- Droid still runs into performance issues with Neo Geo games. Have to set to skip "2" frames per second for it to play Metal Slug 2 smoothly with sound. It was a slide show on the G1.

Why would N900 not perform better than the 3430 using Android?

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Doesn't help when Texas Instruments still haven't released or open sourced the 3D/video driver in the n800/n810. Wonder what Mer performance will be like once it's actually used.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

That about says it all right there ;)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Really? Hmm... Learning something new every day...

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

The problem is of course that Android doesn't run "Java", it runs a bytecode interpreter. Java's speed advantage comes from JIT compilation and its ability to perform runtime optimisations not possible at compile time.

Java is particularly suited for long-running applications which is why it's big on the serverside. In the mobile area it's somewhat at a disadvantage relative to native applications but on the other hand you can very easily port applications from one handset to another.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Sorry, but I have to doubt this.

SNESoid is yet another DrPocketSNES close (and an illegal one, btw, since the license clearly forbids commercial use -- basically "sue on sight"). DrNokSnes is such another clone too, so I wouldn't expect any _important_ speed difference between both.

And behold! That's the case with nearly every Youtube video about the G1 I've seen (unfortunately I'm yet to find one myself). In a 5-months old Mario Kart video that seems to be done on a G1 without frameskipping nor overcloking my N810 is even faster (of course without frameskipping nor overclocking either).

My wild guess is that since SNESoid doesn't have a proper FPS counter you're guessing the framerate. In which case, please compare to a real console or your favourite desktop emulator.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

So, you really think that a bytecode interpreter is not Java? :)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

If those emulators are running at claimed speeds in a VM, then they have received a *lot* of attention and work from skilled coders. Also don't trust the fps numbers. Are they internally calculated or *actually* *displayed*?

For a lot of games, 20 fps is perfectly playable, but for some games, and some people it is not. And it can not be called *fast*.

25/30 fps is a disaster for many games because they blink sprites alternte frames. So you need to fairly well above or below that number to get reasonable interleaved blinking.

But at this point, TODAY, N900 emulator and game porters are looking at Maemo5 wasting 25-50% cpu if they naively blit their window to screen in SDL and push sound to pulse audio.

Just wanted to point that out.

[Edit] Not to be hurtful in any way, but to help start corrective action now, when we need to encourage development, and not discourage developers.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Not gonna happen. Not with the Linux, X11, compositing window manager, Gtk+, etc. between you and the hardware. Having said that, go to full screen, open /dev/fb0, and you are as close to the hardware as you can possibly get. Ok, N900 hardware won't scale for you that easily (N8x0 did though). But scaling with the CPU is not that bad either, as long as you implement it for a specific ratio.

Well, I never really called it fast, but it is fast enough, as far as I am concerned. My real bottleneck is not the physical bitmap output, which I have well under control in both N8x0 and N900. I really think concerns about audio/video output are somewhat overrated, although Pulse Audio is still a [broken] pig.

Ah, come on, don't show slack when the success is so close! Let us make him buy an Android, for Tentacled's sake! If the guy really believes that the Droid is superior in performance to N900 and "has better emulators", we should support his choice right to the logical conclusion of his troubles. =)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

I compared to ZSNES (PC) and my Dingoo game system, which both have a frame counters and plays Mario Kart full speed with sound. I see no difference between.

update: I also tried on by GBA with the actual cart (I have over one hundred of them things).

I am a gaming nut- if it is not playing smooth with sound, I will tell you. Need to test Duke Nukem' on the GBA emulator- That game is a legend for bringing emulators to their knees.

Droid plays Mario Kart at full speed with sound- with zero frame skip setting. Please check with other people that have a Droid (for now) and have Mario Kart on it.

Snesoid even plays it rotating to portrait- full speed with sound. I am a picky SOB when it comes to games. Droid rocks, so N900 should be better than this. Unless the dev for the "Oid" emulators is a coding genius and this is why it is better than the others.

Though the dev is good, I say Bratag is right and the 3430 is just a good beast for small devices.

BTW- I Never said Droid has better emus than N900- no way of knowing. I do know that Droid plays them very well, but I have a PSP, DS and Dingoo loaded with roms. I want the N900 for media, web, all of the space for media and a different OS than Android.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

They are all done in native code. Come on, don't be naive, what VM? :)

Well, depending on whether you mean host fps or guest fps, it is either a bit jerky or it is slow. Jerky is fine in 99% cases.

That is why I set skippage to 35% and all those sprites show up. Do the same, and you will be fine.

Well, for me, it is more 25% than 50%, to be honest. And there is still enough CPU left to handle the emulation itself. It is also worth noting that CPU is usually not a bottleneck in these systems. Memory bandwidth is.

Are there any developers in this thread other than the ones we already know? If not, whom are we gonna discourage? :)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Dingoo A320? WHAT? It's slower than Wiz! And I tried this one!

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Do you try the one with Linux or the stock app? Linux version plays great.

Dingoo SNES version
Dingoo stock app = Not playable (background missing)
Linux version = Plays as good as the ZNES version (to me)

Dingoo GBA version
Stock version plays as smooth as my GBA cart.

This game and Crash Bandicoot Racing for PS1 are my fave arcade-type racing games.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

You certainly could make a Java compliant JVM which is just a simple bytecode interpreter however the bytecode produced for Android is not Java compliant and it lacks a JIT which is a feature of pretty much every JVM out there,

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

I really could? But, I guess, nobody has ever done it so far?

So, you mean Android apps are not programmed in Java?

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Bratag made a great camera app for the G1 that made the camera usable. Droid users could sure use you because the camera app SUCKS. I wonder if it really is a software issue or really hardware (crappy camera components).

He can tell us the overhead horrors of Android. Bratag, please take a deeeep breath before explaining and stay away from the whiskey (Android probably drove him to drink) ;)

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

So Rushmore.. speaking of drinking..

How's that WIld Turkey? I have a fellow graduate student who's from Kentucky (and another professor) who both drink Wild Turkey lol.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Come on stop playing games. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Yes the first Java JVMs were bytecode interpreters and there are possibly still some out there for some platforms however modern JVMs have JIT.

Since performance is what people are complaining about with regard to "Java/Android" the lack of JIT is a defining characteristic and why I highlighted that it's just a bytecode interpreter. If you make performance assumptions for Java based on experience with Android you'll be completely wrong.

Android applications are written in the Java language syntax yes but they don't use the Java platform or run as Java on the phone.

Google also makes a toolkit that lets you write javascript applications as Java. That's not "Java" either, that's a Java framework that lets you write javascript/ecmascript.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

It was Linux, but I don't know exactly which snes emu family.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Of course I do. I am trying to figure out whether you know what you are taking about though.

If Android applications are written in Java, then Android uses Java. How that Java works is a secondary issue.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

I was actually a Jack Daniels drinker, but stopped that stuff after my Marine years ;)

"Just" beer now :)

I tried some GBA games that run poorly on other emulators including the G1:

Doom 2 = Little better but still not playable at all
Top Gear Rally = Playable, but perhaps 80% speed.
Duke Nukem = Not much better
Drome Racers = Very playable now


Seriously, the N900 should perform even better than Droid. Quake 3 already proves this. I can not see Quake 3 playing that smooth on Droid.

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Java is a combination of language syntax, platform libraries and runtime.

Android uses the language syntax but does not use the platform libraries or the runtime. Consequently Android is not "Java". It's particularly inappropriate to draw runtime performance comparisons based on Android when it doesn't use the Java runtime.

So "how that Java works" is not a secondary issue. I also gave you an example of another toolkit which lets you write something using the Java language syntax but produces output which is obviously not "Java".

Re: Droid and Android gaming irony
 

Well, C/C++ running on ARM is called C/C++. C/C++ running on x86 is still called C/C++. C/C++ running on 6502 is still C/C++. C/C++ without STDIO library is still called C/C++. C/C++ without STRING library is still C/C++. And so forth.

Why exactly is Java any different, aside from the bogus argument that "Sun defines it this way"?