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-   -   Dumbing Down Smartphones (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34948)

matthewcc 2009-11-23 16:08

Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
I read this article and it talked about nokia bringing smartphones to the mass market.

Quote:

"Next year Nokia will make smartphones a mass market product," said John Strand, chief executive of Strand Consult.
So what does this mean? I think we can all see smart phones being commonplace and society moving more and more towards a "connected" society.

But when it is a commodity, where does the value come from and how does this change the landscape?

benny1967 2009-11-23 17:47

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
I don't know... these days, when I read about "smartphones", I have the same feeling I have when reading the term "web 2.0": I don't think the term describes anything that actually exists.

While "web 2.0" is a emperor's new clothes kind of thing, it's the other way round with smartphones.... The word used to have a meaning once. When I got my first cell phone, a smartphone was something that offered PIM-functionality, maybe even had built-in spreadsheet or rudimentary word processing features.

After a while, when each and every phone had a calendar and a application for taking notes, the meaning of the word changed. Until recently, it was defined as a phone that you can install and run applications on.

This definition became useless when masses of Java applications invaded even the cheapest handsets. Today, different language variants of wikipedia offer contradictory definitions and it's all a big mess.

The only thing I believe makes a smartphone today is its price. Is it more than €400? Then it's a smartphone. (Remember the crippled functionality of the first iPhone? Every S40 could do more. Still, because of its price, it was labeled "smartphone").

So, when Nokia says it will bring smartphones to the masses.... WTF are they talking about? Bringing more functionality to the average phone? People don't even use what's there. So what else could they mean? Right. Making the average phone more expensive. "Smartphones" are about price.

ARJWright 2009-11-24 00:39

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Smartphone is a marketing term, nothing more.

There were phones, that were simply voice devices. The introduction of SMS/MMS made them data and voice devices. The introduction of WAP/Internet made them better data devices. They still do voice.

If you take the definitions/approach that I took in this article, then the idea of Symbian devices moving down-market makes sense in respect to the kinds of margins that carriers get from devices that have better-than-simple wireless data capabilities. Also, with those more advanced platforms, you get the ability to create and bundle more services which can be sold, further making the platform - a smarpthone plus services - a better source of revenue than something that's just a can-to-can vociebox.

*Its the latter definition of a smartphone that shows the integration of Nokia (logistics, support, marketing) + Ovi (connectivity, services) + Maemo (processes, devices, operating system technologies, users) in the upcoming field of platform-enabled connected device experiences (what the bundle would be called, I'm not sure yet, but "platform enabled connected device experiences" will totally be the definition of it).

eiffel 2009-11-24 14:08

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 387383)
So, when Nokia says it will bring smartphones to the masses.... WTF are they talking about?

I think they just mean that every mass-market phone will be able to buy stuff from Ovi. Nothing deeper.

Rauha 2009-11-24 14:15

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eiffel (Post 388776)
I think they just mean that every mass-market phone will be able to buy stuff from Ovi. Nothing deeper.

Or the fact that smartphone level hardware has become cheap enough to be implimented on lower mid-range pricing. For example, all the new 5xxx Symbian phones from Nokia.

Cherrypie 2009-11-24 14:16

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewcc (Post 387293)
I read this article and it talked about nokia bringing smartphones to the mass market.



So what does this mean? I think we can all see smart phones being commonplace and society moving more and more towards a "connected" society.

But when it is a commodity, where does the value come from and how does this change the landscape?

That means, that unlike the N900, the N9x0's target group won't be linux geeks and tech lovers, but rather the current iphone target group (using capacitive screen & everywhere portrait mode).

Nokia hopes that apple relaxes and does not bring another updated iphone. If they won't & nokias plan works out, they will have a Nokia N9x0 with all the features people know from the iphone PLUS the maemo web experience which is unbeatable in the mobile sector atm.

And those 2 factors combined make the mass market buy N9x0 to replace their (at that point) outdated iphones.

benny1967 2009-11-24 14:18

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eiffel (Post 388776)
I think they just mean that every mass-market phone will be able to buy stuff from Ovi. Nothing deeper.

Nothing new, tough. S40-devices for €99 (released in 2008) can buy from the Ovi Store. So... Whatever. It doesn't matter much in the end, it's only marketingbabble.

carolinabluejay 2009-11-24 16:14

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Hey guys, here are my thoughts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherrypie (Post 388790)
That means, that unlike the N900, the N9x0's target group won't be linux geeks and tech lovers, but rather the current iphone target group (using capacitive screen & everywhere portrait mode).

I totally agree with this, because these individuals are the driving force behind the market, they are the "focus group." These are the individuals mostly buying the "apps", and they are the ones defining what a "smartphone" should be capable of doing. Unfortunately the tech lovers and geeks (including myself) are a niche group, subsequently making them the minority in the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 387383)
So, when Nokia says it will bring smartphones to the masses.... WTF are they talking about? Bringing more functionality to the average phone? People don't even use what's there. So what else could they mean? Right. Making the average phone more expensive. "Smartphones" are about price.So, when Nokia says it will bring smartphones to the masses.... WTF are they talking about? Bringing more functionality to the average phone? People don't even use what's there. So what else could they mean? Right. Making the average phone more expensive. "Smartphones" are about price.

This too, is also true imo. I think this is evidenced by Nokia's commitment to expand S60 down the pipeline to more devices. However, even the average user who once barely used their phone for nothing other than calls, sms, and mms are demanding more functionality out of their devices simply because of advances in tech and a surge in social networking. These individuals now want to also check email, browse the web, log into Facebook, and etc. on the go. Also, I think it is the thought of "having" a device that can perform all these features regardless of how often they use these features drives people to want a "smartphone". I know many people who have these devices and never reach 30% of the devices potential. Ive met Iphone owners who have never even loaded a single mp3 onto the device (let alone even thought of it) and barely use it to browse the web. Its the simple fact they own the device that satisfies them.

Just my thoughts. Thanks.

DaveP1 2009-11-24 17:00

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewcc (Post 387293)
But when it is a commodity, where does the value come from and how does this change the landscape?

The value of any device is almost never in the hardware. Do you care (do you even know, could you even find out) what your carrier's hardware architecture looks like? No. You care about the service it does (or doesn't) deliver.

With "smartphones" the device itself becomes a commodity, as you point out. As the current results of the poll point out, it is the software you can install and run on the phone that provides the added value which causes a person to pick one phone over another.

This has already changed the landscape. When the iPhone was introduced there was no iPhone app store, there was not even a general smartphone app store concept. The iPhone app store, much more than the iPhone hardware, has defined what this generation of smartphones needs to provide. Defining the next paradigm shift, whether it is Google's Android linked to cloud computing or Nokia's Maemo linked to open source, is the challenge.

NvyUs 2009-11-24 17:04

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
an example of bringing smartphones to the mass's is todays announcement 160 euro for a sim free s60 device with 5MP camera http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/...lide-unveiled/

f pickels 2009-11-24 17:33

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherrypie (Post 388790)
That means, that unlike the N900, the N9x0's target group won't be linux geeks and tech lovers, but rather the current iphone target group (using capacitive screen & everywhere portrait mode).

Nokia hopes that apple relaxes and does not bring another updated iphone. If they won't & nokias plan works out, they will have a Nokia N9x0 with all the features people know from the iphone PLUS the maemo web experience which is unbeatable in the mobile sector atm.

And those 2 factors combined make the mass market buy N9x0 to replace their (at that point) outdated iphones.

Sorry but that is a pipe dream. Of coarse Apple will update the Iphone, the next incarnation will have full flash support and have 64gb of internal storage. and there will probably be 150,00 apps in the app store by then.
Nokia is trying to build a phone to basicly do what the I phone did 3 years ago. Nokia aimed low with the N900 and hit low by releasing an unfinished product without many of the basic features of the most basic phones. And in case you have not been paying attention to whats going on in the world, its not about hardware any more, its what you can do with it, today. That means apps and app support. Which Nokia is severely lacking in.
For all the griping I have been hearing about the Apple app store and the restrictions, The OVI store it seems is even a bigger pain in the ***. Here is my favorite, nokia politely telling developers to F@$# off
"EDIT: Chanse Arrington, an employee of Nokia have stated through twitter than Ovi store isn’t the only way to deliver applications, and free applications will be available through Maemo.org.
Yeah way to go Nokia

matthewcc 2009-12-04 10:58

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by f pickels (Post 389285)
Nokia is trying to build a phone to basicly do what the I phone did 3 years ago. Nokia aimed low with the N900 and hit low by releasing an unfinished product without many of the basic features of the most basic phones. And in case you have not been paying attention to whats going on in the world, its not about hardware any more, its what you can do with it, today. That means apps and app support. Which Nokia is severely lacking in.


I have to disagree. Nokia is trying to redefine the market with the n900 and like devices. They are saying that their apporach to how a mobile device is the best available and it is what consumers want. An example of this is plug-in's vs. apps. Think about it... it is a 'revolutionary' concept to the clear majority of smart phone users. its saying you don't need an app for that because it is/can be part of the way the device works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by f pickels (Post 389285)
For all the griping I have been hearing about the Apple app store and the restrictions, The OVI store it seems is even a bigger pain in the ***. Here is my favorite, nokia politely telling developers to F@$# off
"EDIT: Chanse Arrington, an employee of Nokia have stated through twitter than Ovi store isn’t the only way to deliver applications, and free applications will be available through Maemo.org.
Yeah way to go Nokia

There have ALWAYS been multiple channels for developers to distribute their wares, ANYONE can open up an appstore... now will ovi carry it? i dont know- but, both symbian and maemo users have been able to get 'apps' from a variety of places and install them on their device. A good example is Google Maps - I dont believe it is even available in the OviStore but I have had it for years running on my n95 and then 5800... I got it right from googles mobile app page.

I hope to see new app stores pop up that might suit me better than ovi. Amazon could come up with its own services channel that lives on your device where you get your music, apps movies etc. I think it would be a GREAT move for a company like amazon. They have great rating tools, brand recognition etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by f pickels (Post 389285)
Of coarse Apple will update the Iphone, the next incarnation will have full flash support and have 64gb of internal storage. and there will probably be 150,00 apps in the app store by then.

I expect that they will but so what? I have 48gb of storage on my 900 today and will have 64gb as soon as the microSD cards are available. Ovi has been around for 5 months and has half a billion downloads and every day they are selling tens of thousands of ovi-capable devices (including forecast 50 Million Maemo devices sold in 2011) - that is a real market that will drive the supply of new applications. Nokia services are going to hockey stick and grow exponentially,

Of course most of us do not live in a dictatorship and we are each able to choose what we want. Amazing marketing or amazing tech... I know what i want.

matthewcc 2009-12-04 11:00

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by f pickels (Post 389285)
Chanse Arrington, an employee of Nokia have stated through twitter than Ovi store isn’t the only way to deliver applications, and free applications will be available through Maemo.org.

Yeah way to go Nokia

finally something i agreed with in the post! WAY to go Nokia!!!!

You don't make me stick to your service channel you let ME choose where to get my content, apps plug ins etc!!!

WAY to go Nokia!!!!

ARJWright 2009-12-04 14:13

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by matthewcc (Post 409548)
I have to disagree. Nokia is trying to redefine the market with the n900 and like devices. They are saying that their apporach to how a mobile device is the best available and it is what consumers want. An example of this is plug-in's vs. apps. Think about it... it is a 'revolutionary' concept to the clear majority of smart phone users. its saying you don't need an app for that because it is/can be part of the way the device works.

I wouldn't say that that's the goal of using the Maemo platform, but it is a huge part of how Nokia thinks a mobile device should be - features should be included with the 3rd party application space left to those things that truly enrich and magnify the built-in capabilities of the device.

The AppStore phenomena is a short-term answer to the real issue behind mobile devices, namely, the user interface and user experience sucks for it being a personal device. And until the device itself can automatically adapt to the user without intervention of an app, then this is the route to take.

meyma 2009-12-04 14:29

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
The n900 is not a smartphone in sense of making a phone smart but a comphone - a computer with phone feature.
The actual difference in technology may be small, but is a revolutionary step as we are now free to make it do what we need instead of what someone will let us do with it.

OhSnap 2009-12-04 14:51

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NvyUs (Post 389216)
an example of bringing smartphones to the mass's is todays announcement 160 euro for a sim free s60 device with 5MP camera http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/...lide-unveiled/

Yes, that's the stuff.

Decent smartphone at a low price point.

DaveP1 2009-12-04 15:47

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meyma (Post 409925)
The n900 is not a smartphone in sense of making a phone smart but a comphone - a computer with phone feature.
The actual difference in technology may be small, but is a revolutionary step as we are now free to make it do what we need instead of what someone will let us do with it.

I would be curious what you see as the difference in technology? The N900 shares its CPU with other smartphones and it is no longer the fastest smartphone CPU. The N900 shares the Linux core of its OS with other OSs. It has a keyboard but so do some other smartphones. It has a less limited browser than some smartphones but with others it's a close race. The revolutionary step in smartphones has been mutlitasking and that step was taken by the Palm Pre and is shared with many other smartphones at this point.

As far as making it do what you need, that's nothing to do with technology and it's not revolutionary, it's reactionary. It dates back to the days when computers didn't come with any software, not even an OS. You made them do what you needed them to do. I have enough trouble making my kids do what I need them to do. When it comes to my smartphone, I would rather buy something that does what I need.

Like it or not, the N900 is a smartphone and all it's computing capabilities are what make it "smart" but they do not make it a real "computer" as the world has come to know that term. It's a great toy for progammers and it has the potential to be a great smartphone but there are still a lot of rough edges and not a lot of good apps.

matthewcc 2009-12-04 16:02

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP1 (Post 410089)
Like it or not, the N900 is a smartphone and all it's computing capabilities are what make it "smart" but they do not make it a real "computer" as the world has come to know that term.

I strongly agree with he sentiment and the sooner people get past it the better. Today, with a little (or a lot) of cajoling a number of phones can do very similar things to the n900 (root access etc.) with lots of memory, disk space, nice UI experience etc.

matthewcc 2009-12-04 16:09

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ARJWright (Post 409900)
I wouldn't say that that's the goal of using the Maemo platform, but it is a huge part of how Nokia thinks a mobile device should be - features should be included with the 3rd party application space left to those things that truly enrich and magnify the built-in capabilities of the device.

I agree it is not the goal of the platform, its the goal of Nokia, the platform is how they implement the message - it is not the message in itself. it is similar in approach to what apple did with the iphone - they said that your mobile, should be able to do anything = there is an app for that. (even if it is a serial process)

Nokia has a different story to tell - maybe your phone is your connection to the digital world - or you don't need an app for that. I dont know what the final message will be...

Laughing Man 2009-12-04 16:12

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
I've yet to see any other "smartphone" do what the n900 can potentially do with running things like KDE and Debian (based off of what was possible with the n800/n810). Well besides the G1 which can also run Debian and OpenOffice. That's what makes it a real computer to me. Heck, theoretically you could even plug it into any TV (for a larger display), and use a bluetooth mouse and keyboard. That looks more computer than smartphone to me (but of course it's based on what the individual's use is).

I see two sides of a convergence battle with an eventual middle point. Though what that middle point will be, I have no idea. It may be a complete redefining of what computing will be seen as. As someone pointed out, there is a general movement towards cloud services (e.g Google Docs).

Edit: I guess an easy way to phrase it would be

Would adding cellular voice capability to any device that is decently portable (4 inch previous internet tablets, maybe even the MIDs we see out there around 7 inches) make it a smartphone or a computer? Or if you added a cellular radio to the internet tablets, would that make it a phone or just an internet tablet with cellular capability (more so for the mobile data rather than voice).

That's how I see the n900, just the new internet tablet with cellular capability (more so for the mobile data rather than voice). Though understandably not everyone thinks the same way.

MaemoCurmudgeon 2009-12-04 17:16

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ARJWright (Post 387900)
If you take the definitions/approach that I took in this article, then the idea of Symbian devices moving down-market makes sense in respect to the kinds of margins that carriers get from devices that have better-than-simple wireless data capabilities.

.

ARJWright… Nice article. I would like to suggest that the smart phone definition needs a specific OS based requirement and humbly offer you this explanation. Humans have used their intellect to create technical analogs to what we know. Cars are analogs of horses, greater speed, endurance and range. Telephones are an analog to our voices, leveraged and expanded to cover greater distance. Computers are analogs to a larger human system, cognition, perception and communication.

The smart phone is the branching of the computer as human analog, in a portable format. One of the key aspects of human intellectual activity is mutli-tasking and multi-threading of perception (input), cognition (processing) and communication (output).

The inability of a device to "act" like a human – process multiple perception streams, act on them, synthesize the streams into cogent communication precludes it from being a smart phone.

Today's most iconic smart phone, the iPhone, is a feature phone and not a smart phone. Having a rich "eco system" does not increase the depth of the device, just it's breath.

You are astute in specifying that "Operating systems that do not allow developers to access APIs to extend mobile functionality through third-party software would have to be considered closed, and therefore devices running them would be nothing more than featurephones." But I would add that openness in some cases is not a function of the platform, but the owners of that platform.

"…that application also takes advantages of hardware and software features specific to that device to enhance the mobile experience."

In the end I think that one of the quickest tests of a device as smart phone vs. feature phone is that the OS and applications deliver multi tasking and multi threading to applications that range from the mundane(PIM) to the sublime(augmented reality) and allow for the interaction between all data on the device (with the understanding of course that if follows the premise of portability and wireless connectivity).

DaveP1 2009-12-04 19:12

Re: Dumbing Down Smartphones
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 410140)
I've yet to see any other "smartphone" do what the n900 can potentially do with running things like KDE and Debian (based off of what was possible with the n800/n810). Well besides the G1 which can also run Debian and OpenOffice.

And I guess that's the point. The N900 is one among potentially many devices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laughing Man (Post 410140)
Edit: I guess an easy way to phrase it would be: Would adding cellular voice capability to any device that is decently portable . . . make it a smartphone or a computer? . . . That's how I see the n900, just the new internet tablet with cellular capability (more so for the mobile data rather than voice). Though understandably not everyone thinks the same way.

Since I'm typing this on my OQO with an embedded 3G radio (Sprint), I can say that a pocketable computer with cellular data is a great device. Adding voice capability would make it a phone and computer combination but it would be huge compared to most phones.

OTOH, taking a PDA or PMP and adding voice and data capability to it, like the Palm TX > Palm Treo > Palm Pre or the iPod Touch > iPhone or the N810 > N900 doesn't suddenly make the device a computer and a phone. It makes it a smart phone (which is not a bad thing). They are just too limited compared to other, available pocketable computers to be considered computers.


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