Noobs should use terminal!
 

As can be expected, there has been a jump in the number of questions asked lately. Many were newbies asking various questions from the answerable-by-google kinds to the the inadvertently-expert type. And i have seen lots of "don't" advice posted in those threads.
Now, while i understand why it's bad to install apps from unsafe repos like extras-devel or go red-pill if you're not in the know, the danger of other things (like simply giving some commands in the terminal) is quite exaggerated. Many simply say "don't use the terminal if you're a noob". And i think they're pretty wrong.
I remember my first steps into linux. Gosh was i shaky. I had some experience with the awful windows command prompt, but everything was different under linux, so i wasn't very eager to use it. But i gradually got used to it. And most importantly, i understood that it's hard to do serious damage using just terminal commands. After the first time i killed my os (i think by changing something in the X configuration) and managed to reinstall everything the way it was quite easily, i was even more convinced.
Now think about them newbs. Maemo 5 is admittedly not perfectly user-friendly yet. Which means that you might not get full functionality if you don't get a little down-and-dirty. But the newbs are told not to do that, for fear of somehow doing some damage. What's even stranger is that sometimes they want to use something relatively harmless. And remember it's hard to do serious damage to linux without being root.
So my proposal is: let's give newbs some credit for being reasonably capable. Don't tell them off using terminal just because they don't have experience - they aren't going to get any either by not doing anything. Just warn when possibly damaging commands are involved (like rm - but don't go overboard, cat or grep can hardly be dangerous). And if something dangerous is involved, instead of recommending not to do it, warn about the danger and advise people to be ready to reflash if anything goes wrong - leaving them the choice of whether to do it or not
Sorry for the long text, hope you had the patience to read it

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

'nuff said.

Also, use the enter key more often.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

He said hard - not impossible.
For someone to come up with issuing to root and run rm with parameters is most likely aware of what he is doing.

Also, use the backspace key more often.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Teach them to cd into a parent of the directory they want to delete first, so they can go:

without the leading slash. it could save their life :p

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Users new to Linux should use terminal only on desktop system, and only if they want to learn about the OS itself. If they just want to use it, most mainstream distros are very user friendly, and there really is no need for noobs to use terminal.
On the other hand, noobs most definitely should not use terminal on their tablets!

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I don't ever want to have to use the terminal. The whole point of a GUI is to get away from having to type everything. With a well written GUI, once it is installed, you should be able to do anything without going to whatever terminal is called in whatever OS you are using.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

The terminal can be a dangerous place for us noobs.

I recently upgraded to ubuntu 9.10 and suffered the loss of sound problem.

I read some help guide and messed around in terminal, typed in some commands I knew absolutely nothing of, rebooted and BAM! laptop somehow didn't see my grub loader any more. Luckily I'm not that much of a noob and I knew how to safely get back from that, but where linux is concered I am pure noob, and linux scares me.

However, MrGrim, I do agree with you, the best way for me to learn is to use the terminal, and that is something I will continue to do, because I believe that if I did screw something up, the people here will help me fix it.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

And you indeed may never, ever use the terminal, but as an ordinary user. For more advanced users terminal is still the place to be(even on Windows).
The thing is in the approach. Some of the things you will never be able to do in GUI, say shell scripting. It's just two different concepts.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

what about using terminal to install deb files on n900. Is that safe or even necessary?

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

The problem is that even a simple mistake can cause a lot of pain.

Obviously sudo rm -rf / will be a problem...but if you know about sudo and rm's recursion/force options then you probably know the risks involved w/ using the Terminal. But how about:

rm /home/user/ some_harmless_directory_I_want_to_delete

No sudo, force option, yet big problem.

Or even:

cat whetever whetever2 > some_file_that_shouln't_be_overwritten

You can still mess up your system pretty good without sudo or even rm.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I don't own N900, but judging solely on my N810 experience it is safe, but is it necessary, don't think so.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I use the terminal several times a day and have so far, knock on wood, never done anything that have caused any issues.

For instance, I find using the terminal and the command line to be great for;
- unzipping/unraring/untaring files,
- dpkg / apt-get, ( to install, update and clean)
- certain apps like iptraff, dungeon crawl, etc require you to run them from the command line,
- etc.

If you dont, as a n00b, explore your device outside of the GUI you might as well run Android (which is a great OS).

I'm a total Linux n00b.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Are you a noob? You don't sound like one. :)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

True, there are a few instances where you need to go to the terminal level but I haven't used Windows terminal in months if not years (except for a batch file I have on my desktop to do a forced shutdown). With Windows, at least, almost everything you need to do has been GUI-fied and stuck somewhere in the Control Panel.

I started in DOS, I know DOS, and I don't want to go back.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I'm a complete Linux noob.
The things listed represent about 90% of what I know how to do.
No idea what SDK, Qt, etc really means and constantly type dir instead of ls.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

My, let's not go there ;)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

You don't have to be a developer to say that you are familiar with the OS.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Yes, actually, you can't just install .deb files in the App Manager anymore. You either have to do "dpkg -i packagename.deb" as root, or use <shudder> Red Pill mode.

EDIT: -----------------

A perfect example of this is the /home/user/.osso directory. That has tons of system settings and can be completely wiped out by the user.

EDIT2: Oops, actually there are very few settings left in that directory in Maemo 5...

-----------

Windows has a terminal? ;)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Being able to brick the thing is one of the big reasons I'm buying it! But of course, I will have full backups of anything that goes on it, including bookmarks with Firefox Weave plugin.

I may be a noob, but I'm not stupid.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

It's statements like that which give Linux an unfair reputation for being a nerds-only OS.

There is absolutely zero need to use command lines on a mobile Linux device, and zero need to use command lines on e.g. Ubuntu.

You can if you want, if you are an advanced user, but ordinary users who just want to check their e-mail and surf the web and listen to music really don't need to go anywhere near any command lines.

Linux is good enough for ordinary users' needs too nowadays, and that's the message we should be getting out if we want Linux to become a mainstream OS.


Well that immediately differentiates you from the average Windows user. The vast majority of Windows users don't even know the command prompt exists.


Newbies are told not to do that because it's ****ing scary, impossible to see how it works, requires prior knowledge, and they will probably go off to buy Windows or OS X instead.

It doesn't matter whether there's potential for damage or not. The problem with a command line is that it is inherently unintuitive.

Clicking on a globe to access the internet, clicking on an envelope to access e-mail, that's intuitive. Typing the word "sudo" followed by some seemingly random letters and numbers is not in any shape or form intuitive.


Let's also kiss goodbye any chance of Linux ever becoming a mainstream OS.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

You learn about the terminal by playing with it, screwing things up, and learning from your experiences. It's fun! :D

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

It's fun for hardcore computer nerds.

Not fun at all for the rest of us.

I have a lot of non-computer responsibilities in my life, all I want my computer to do is open applications when I click on their icons. I don't want to have to learn another language.

Note that I COULD learn command line stuff if I wanted to, but I don't WANT to. It is a waste of time for me. Life is too short to do things that you think are a waste of time.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Well, then you won't be one of the people asking for tips about the terminal. But when someone asks, I assume they want to know!

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Ah well I'd agree with that, but only if the newbie specifically asks to be told.

If they're just asking stuff like "how do I format a memory card" then the GUI method is the best response.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I would second that advice. If a newbie asks how to do something and the answer involves typing commands into the terminal, the newbie should be told "The only way to do that is to learn how to use the terminal app. For an introduction to terminal functions, see X."

X is a page in the wiki that as far as I can tell doesn't exist. Perhaps someone could write up a basic introduction along the lines of the Root Access page (http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I think it's undeniable that someone with a working knowledge of the command line can get things done much more quickly than someone without, especially as it doesn't preclude using a well-designed GUI when it makes the job easier.

The time you're talking about wasting is really negligible (imho). At the most a couple of days of actual use to get the basics. It'll pay you back in spades when you want to rename hundreds of files in a photo album (for example).

Jan

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

If you spend a lot of time in the command line, it becomes second nature. If you don't, it becomes something you have to research each time you use it.

Your file rename is a good example. If you do it in a command line, you get one shot and you better have each parameter exactly correct. If you do it right, it's lightning fast. If you don't, you have a mess to fix.

If you use a program like Métamorphose you can play with the parameters and preview the changes before executing them. It also checks for file name errors that result from the renaming. You can also do fancier stuff like pulling data out of EXIF and ID3 tags.

P.S. Métamorphose can be found at http://file-folder-ren.sourceforge.net/
Métamorphose is written in Python, with Python source and a deb package available. Anyone want to port it?

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

You're probably right with your first point Dave! Though luckily everyone with a maemo device will have ample opportunity to use the command line every day :D

By "basics" I don't mean a detailed knowledge of (e.g.) rename, but the ability to type "man rename", understand what you read and put it into practice.

As I said, if there is a well designed GUI available to do the job there's no reason not to use it. That won't be the case for every situation though, and I suppose it isn't currently the case for our photo example in maemo5.

Less importantly, I'd suggest that any knowledge / experience gained from using Métamorphose is probably not going to make the next "powerful" thing you attempt any easier, whereas getting to grips with rename might do.

Anyway, I suppose I was just trying to say that time spent learning more about the system you're using doesn't seem to be too much of a waste, and will probably pay you back over time.

Cheers,
Jan

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Oops! That was me! I should probably get rid of that old account...

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

It is indeed a pretty good tip, there is another one however.

I've always taken the habit of starting my root commands with #, then typing the command etc, and after reviewing it (and not hitting enter by mistake), I go back and remove the #.

So basically, I would type:

So that if I, by mistake, hit the enter button at the wrong time I don't kill the whole home directory, or worse, root.

My 2c.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

:-O

Who was it that claimed this forum was suitable for ordinary users?


A couple of days of learning command line commands "negligible"?

You honestly truly think this is a realistic proposition for most end users?

This isn't a system administrators' convention here, we're talking about a consumer product aimed at ordinary people who aren't hobbyists.

They do not want to learn text-based commands entered at a prompt. It doesn't matter how much benefit they get from it, it is simply not something they would do.

They don't give a rat's arse about Maemo itself, they just want a cool gadget that does fun things and is easy to use. Command lines aren't cool, they're not fun, and they're not easy to use.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Expecting users to spend a "couple of days learning the basics" of command lines is a major reason why more people don't use Linux. When I tell people the N900 runs Linux some of them seriously ask if it's only intended for programmers.

Linux will only become mainstream if it doesn't require any command line input from a typical user.

If the GUI is slower than command lines, that does not mean you can expect the user to learn command lines, it means you demand the GUI be improved in whatever way it is deficient. The GUI is the only game in town if you want Linux to be for more than just hobbyists.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Linux the platform might want to become mainstrean, but do the people that currenly make up its culture (stereotypical Linux user) want it to be mainstream, or (like in most groups) would they rather keep certain walls up so that the good folks come in, and those more alongside the stream's main path would rather keep away from?

Usually speaking, and in most cultures, the answer is "mainstream is good as long as we don't lose the quirks that keep us differentiated." Unfortunately, to become mainstream means to lose the differentiation of your quirks, and usually means a compromise on some quirks for the simpler good of being in common mind/actions with others.

In other words, teach noobs to use the terminal, and risk losing the quirk that keeps your community unique; and at same time, risk never growing the community and falling into irrelevance because of no growth because you weren't able to take a quirk and keep it from being a requirement.

Simple social science equasion to me ;)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

ARJWright's comments reminded me that I am finding fewer and fewer reasons to go "back" to Windows. The easy addition of support for Nikon's raw photo format into Ubuntu has impressed the pants off of me. I actually had to boot into Linux to edit my raw photos!

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I've often found it to be easier to say what I feel, what I'm willing to do, what I see in a product - rather than speaking on the behalf of 'them'. They may not agree :)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

cute really.
its one thing to mess up your x11 config and be a noob.

its a completely different thing to brick a phone and be a noob.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

I feel that way about all larger (desktop) OSes. I used a Palm OS Treo as my only home computer until I went to using a N800/N75 combo (Maemo/Symbian) and currently use an N97 as my main and usually only unless I'm on a work/client provided WinXP laptop. I don't care for the mess that is the culture of many mainstream OSes, but I also understand that if everyone adopted my point of view, that I'd been looking for something else to be different with. Its really a backwards cat and mouse game when you think about it.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Ideally you want to allow users, who have the curiosity to explore, an easy way to get back to a usable device again. Of course practical safeguards are always good. I am certainly comfortable with linux and I have done many a stupid things in the command line (definitely never done sudo rm -rf / though). Finding your way back out of trouble is half the fun!! But I always think twice about trying it out on my N900.

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Okay, let's take them one at a time
Just to mention it, most modern shells now disallow "rm -rf /". Tried it on bash, won't work. That's not to say rm is harmless, "rm -rf /home/user" does work and does considerable damage (i think it may render the account unusable, but i'm not going to try)
I'm not sure bricking a phone is much worse than killing a laptop's os. If the user can follow the flashing guide (doesn't seem that hard), it's pretty much the same thing as reinstalling windows/linux. There's the matter of keeping certain files (settings, contacts) safe through a re-flash. I think the os does that, and other important files can simply be always stored on the card
And noobs don't just "rm -rf" on their own. They usually read it somewhere. The guy/lady writing should warn about a command being potentially dangerous. Whether they do that is another story. Note that's it's also possible to do bad things via gui (like take the red pill - also note that in the thread showing how, the OP never bothered to explain it's dangerous)

Re: Noobs should use terminal!
 

Sure. If you only want to use 30% of the power the operating sytem gives to you via the GUI, there's no need to use the terminal.