General rant about how hard it is for a non-techie to install apps
 

Hi,

I am getting more and more frustrated by how hard it is to get apps to actually install and work. Take this site for example, put together by Nokia I presume and supposed to attract new users with nice links to all kinds of cool apps.

http://www.nseries.com/770experience...=en&country=US

I am yet to find an app among those listed on that site that would actually install without probs and without telling me that I am missing this or that package. That would be fine if any of the app developers would bother to actually clearly explain what is needed and where to find it and to do it in a way that someone not understanding the ins and outs of Maemo would understand.

Heck, even the instructions on the Tableteer are virtually impossible to follow/understand.

All I want is a button that says "download" and that will ALWAYS inlclude all the packages etc. needed without me having to try to interpret what the heck went wrong this time.

Just needed to vent. Merry Xmas to all. :)

Merry X Mas to u too..
Maybe you need to take a look at maemo.org in there they show you how to install apps correctly and many other things for your nokia 770
https://maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationCatalog2006

You mean like this? ;)

Looks like the site is almost complete and fully functional. I would suggest developers make sure their app has a corresponding .install file to get ready for the new maemo site.

This layout will be much easier on the poor 770's CPU than the old Application Catalog too.

Seri..., The link you gave me takes me to a page that has the following text plus a list of applications (links). Where in that text does it clearly explain how to install applications? To me it seems more like instructions to developers. Not very useful for a dum end use like me. Some comments:

1) What is a repository?

2) It is nonsensical for an end user that "other libraries" have to be installed for an app to work.

3) What does "tracking dependencies" mean, manually or otherwise?

4) Example of a download prob: I tried to download Battlegweled. I downloaded the .deb file. Was that my mistake? Or am I supposed to download some "library", whatever that is/means, for it to work?
N770 can never be a succesful product if it does not cater for dummies like me as well.

5) =DC=, yes, something like that :) I hope the "missing install" get filled in soon. And that they get filled in properly. I tried the CGoban one, with then end result of my N770 telling me "Unable to install. Some packages required for the installation are missing" Oh and the descriptions of many (I am about to say most) applications is jibberish and/or greek to me, e.g. "Guile Scheme is the GNU Project's Scheme Interpreter"... que??


Oh and Happy New Year as well :)

"Welcome. Even though maemo.org is a developer forum, this page is dedicated to applications that are mature enough to be made available for end-users. If you find an application here that does not yet work, please move it to ApplicationCatalog2006Wip.

When you are adding your program to this list, please make sure that the program is end-user ready. Also, specify any problems with it, along with precise instructions about any installation tricks, or any other libraries that must be installed to make it work. And please try to use one of the sections listed in UserSections in the Section field of your debian/control file.

For applications that are still in development and not yet end-user ready, please use ApplicationCatalog2006Wip.

For applications that are planned but not yet in development, please use ApplicationCatalog2006Planned.

To add an applications to the wishlist, please use ApplicationCatalog2006Wishlist.

For project hosting use the Garage

Applications listed on these page are Maemo 2.0 compatible and usable for Internet tablet OS Edition 2006 installed devices. These applications WILL NOT WORK on devices with Internet Tablet 2005 Edition. If you have not updated yet, see ApplicationCatalog.

Many of the applications listes here can be installed from one of the repositories listed in ApplicationRepositories. That is often a better way of installing applications, for the following reasons: you will get up-to-date versions (and the system will be able to check for updates), and you will not have to track dependencies manually.

Before adding warnings such as ...about 20 minutes after installing this software my N770 started to make crackle sounds and a few minutes latter it smell of smoke... on this page, please discuss your issue with the software's author, maintainer, porter, provider, or at least on the maemo mailing lists, http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-users/ or http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/. Or report a bug in https://maemo.org/bugzilla/. "

Ok....
(Repositories are *dumps* of packages for any nix distribution in our case maemo)
When you use the application manager to install apps from the repositories it will install the required dependencies for the application automatically for you.... Word of warning is not the case all the time... Also adding repositories to the application manager can some times render your device unusable due to bad repos.... And to bring it back is going to Require you to hack your maemo...

Ok here is how to add repositories to your 770.

So in IE:
You want to install Maemo Mapper and you got to the application list and in the Maemo Mapper link you see the following information...

In the info it gives you the repo information and is what you will use to install the repo to application manager..

If you where to install packages manually is going to required you to install the missing dependencies manually as well.

I recommend you install osso-xterm (advance) you will use it a lot.
Also Openssh so you can use your desktop to connect to your 770 and use your desktop keyboard...
Also if you want to transfer files to your 770 I would recommend you use SCP instead of the USB cable I found it some what slow...
For Windows - WinSCP
For *nix - gFTP

If you need screen shoot or further help let me know.

Good Luck!

I have to say that I completely agree with Viipottaja. I am completely in favor of installing a series of packages from the developers site instead of having to manually configure the repo to allow 770 to download some of them automatically. I *might* change my stance if nokia had a sort of .repository file format that developers could use that would open from opera and install the repo to users app manager. Or maybe a .application format that would include the repo address (maybe multiple repos if necessary) and the application to be installed. It would simplify things considerably for the end user.

But as it stands now, I liked the 2005 way more than I like the 2006 way. But that's just me. ... or is it?

<rant>
There is a file format which will add a repo - the .install file format is well-documented in the Application Manager documentation and "how to build a deb file for Maemo".

TBH, most of the problems with Maemo application installation is entirely due to packager laziness: all apps should (once stable) go in the "Extras" repo. It's not helped that many apps seem to be depending on libraries in other repositories, without documenting what those are! ("Oh, you mean you don't have repository.maemo.org configured? I do, and I use libxyz from there")

As for preferring to download packages - this is just plain backwards: you end up having to track down all the dependencies yourself, with no real idea if they're already installed or not. Repositories and the Application Manager are the way forward, but authors should stop creating their own repos!
</rant>

I'm sure you're right, but I can't find this, either from http://www.maemo.org/platform/docs/how-to.html or through Google. Would you mind posting the URL?

- Neil

https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/pr...repository.txt

On the front page of Google for ".install maemo format" and ".install maemo application manager".

The .install files are required for the nice usage of the new Midgard-based application catalog; although they can't add multiple repositories if your application has dependencies spread across multiple ones (yet another reason to avoid that silliness).

HTH,

Andrew

Indeed, aflegg, that seems to be an improvement when it eventually is in usable state.
But, indeed, you are correct that there is/will be a better way of installing than having end users enter the repositories themselves.

kontorri: the comments on #maemo - and the dependency of the new application catalogue on it suggests it will work perfectly well in 99.9% of cases currently.

I fully agree with the original rant. People HERE are enthusiasts and will find a way to get apps installed and working-- the general public will give up. QUICKLY. We all know that.

Any and every improvement in app installation will only serve to improve the success of the 770 and its followers. Otherwise, without such support, we have another N-Gage on our hands. ;)

I would agree that the whole repository thing is a bit much to wrap your head around when you just want to install one app and be done with it. However, it is definitely the way to go for the following reasons:
1. central location for all software available for the 770
2. automatic method to distribute security/functionality updates
3. shared libraries reduce the space needed ... crucial for a cramped embedded system like the 770

Where this is falling down at the moment is in reason 1. in that developers are not submitting their packages upstream to Nokia to include in their official repositories. I suspect that this is partially due to Nokia not clearly outlining a process for developers to do that simply.

Reason 2. is not completely working at the moment due to many packages just not updating properly. This is sometimes the fault of the packager, sometimes the fault of a nearly full or busy 770 just not having the resources to handle both the existing installation and the update simultaneously and sometimes the fault of a sometimes wonky application manager.

Hopefully things will get better as community standards (particularly package QA standards) fall into place and developers start gravitating together but it may take a bit of time and in the meanwhile, the end user will have to go through the ridiculously unnecessary pain of researching and enabling a dozen repositories (or Application catalogues in Nokia parlance ... another source of confusion) on their 770s. There is a wiki page listing some of the common ones here:
http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationRepositories
but I think things will improve as the package universe condenses.

Thanks all for interest in this matter. I will try to apply some of the kind advise provided by you all, although some/a lot of it I am not sure I fully understand. That again is due to my general ignorance of "matters IT" and "******edityness" overall ;) To the likes of me the "click here and it will download and intall and work without you having to worry about having istalled some obscure stuff before" really is the only realistic solution.. :)

I'm never one to forego giving my two cents so here goes.

*insert prefix* I've been screwing around with Linux since I grabbed Slackware in the mid 90's.

*body* Since then there has been one constant; apps that are forced to install after shoving them through numerous hoops, fixes, manual configuration edits, etc. I don't know if this is a developer stereotype (it's been true with 99% of the devs I know, professionally and recreationally) but for the love of all that's holy, polish the apps! Porting something to the 770 and expecting it to be executed via the command line with 9kb of switches doesn't make the app inviting. I thought it was relatively easy to make simple interfaces? Even a bunch of check boxes that will automatically be fed to said app would make it exponentially more useful.

Indeed. When I created my Garage project, I saw a comment somewhere to the effect that uploading to one of the standard repositories would only be allowed for developers with a "proven track record" - which was (i) a little vague, and (ii) a little offputting.

It might not be that bad in practice, though. For anyone interested, the required process is documented at http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ExtrasRepository, and I'm having a go at it now.

- Neil

I just have to shoot my mouth here :p . I do not agree with the original rant but I know all to well where it came from. I was there almost a year ago. I actually paid someone to install Linux on a laptop of mine because I found it too hard. I was used to simply clicking on a link and the software automatically being installed. That's a Windows thing. Fortunately for me the person I hired required I do some homework. It was a painful process but in the process I have become somewhat of an enthusiast. As a side effect I am now able to install; from scratch; various flavors of Linux on various machines and have the owners very happy with the result. Don't get me wrong, I am so very far from being proficient with things Linux but I realized it takes a completely different mindset to work with Linux. That's a good thing. Just because it doesn't work the way we're used to doesn't mean we should force it too. There are so many sources of information to educate one about Linux it's hard to ignore. Use them! Linux has a learning process, same as any other OS.
For me, I prefer the repository approach to installing software with the application manager. It tells me what dependencies there are and attempts to resolve them w/o my input. Sometimes I must intervene and locate the missing file myself. Much preferable to one click install and program hangs for undeterminate reasons. :cool:

What happened to repository.maemo.org?
 

This and the /extras repository underneath it seem to be empty except for Packages and Release files, and a directory of .install files.

Are the packages that used to be there available anywhere else?

Just picked up on this thread and I too would like to give my opinion. I am an end user and have not used my 770 for anything except surfing the net. I guess that is what is intended. Anyway, I have said before that I don't want to learn Linux and find it impossible to install any other software that I occasionally see mentioned on this site. Friends ask about my 770 and I tell them it is too complicated for their use. For Christmas, my son gave me an Xbox 360 with HD DVD drive and it was a snap to use. I just think the device is a techy gizmo and isn't ready for the general public.

In my opinion, the general user should *not* have to learn the inner operations of the system just to perform mundane tasks. This goes for Linux too. Linux can be made user-friendly -- Macintosh's OS X is probably the best example of that, so really there's no excuse for having both the user-friendly GUI *and* the down-and-dirty shell world available.

For non-power users, IMHO the general world of open source can be a frustrating experience. Actually, for *me* (a power user) it can be a frustrating experience, just due to a lack of central organization, broken links, hunting for libs, etc. I know most programmers hate to document and manage their work, but that type of stuff is more important to the layman than most people think. I'm a geek, so I understand, yet I still find it amusing how many open source programs seem to place more value on their changelog than actually telling the user how the program works.

Honestly, for what Nokia built into this application (the web stuff), its pretty easy to use. For anyone but power users, it *is* an Internet appliance and nothing more. If you are not one, and some functionality you want exists in apps that only can be installed via sites like this... this device is probably not for you.

Well, I don't share the opinion that installation of software on Nokia 770 is hard (or is intended to be hard). Some packages are available without any extra dependencies (such as MPlayer, yes, that's a shameless advertisment :) ) and can be installed with only a single click on a .deb file. May I try to use you as a guinea pig? ;) I would appreciate if you visited Maemo MPlayer home page and tried to install it. If it is too hard for you, that would be an indication that the instructions there are not good enough and need to be updated. Such kind of testing is also very much welcome.

I agree that repositories take a bit too many steps to configure on the device for ordinary users. So my suggestion is the following: probably we need a 'repository manager' application :) It should install just from the ordinary .deb file with a single click. It should connect to some web resource with some information about existing repositories which are known to contain high quality applications and these repositories should not conflict with each other. This information should be added to local repository list. Sure, it adds one more layer over all this stuff, but it probably can reduce the number of steps that need to be performed to get extra applications installed on the device and make life much easier for non geek users. Also it needs to be secure (the list of repositories should be signed). Thoughts?

Re: General rant about how hard it is for a non-techie to install apps
 

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ead.php?t=3889

Salut.
Sebas.

Re: General rant about how hard it is for a non-techie to install apps
 

Thats not difference from what I posted in my repy to him.. When people want to rant they just rant