[Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

This brainstorm is based on the votes received for Turn by Turn Navigation on Ovi Maps improvement suggestions.

Currently there is no Turn by Turn Navigation in Ovi Maps. However, this is an essential feature for a Navigation application. The only question is how should this be implemented.

Brainstorm Link

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...rn_navigation/ moved to Under Development with Harmattan as milestone.

Solution selected: Solution #1: Free Turn by Turn Navigation

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Hey Sasler,

Thank you for the work! :)

I would love to see a collection of links in each Navigation Brainstorm to all other Brainstorms at this Topic. Could you add something like this to this Brainstorm and "THE real BIG ONE" ? ;)

After you have arranget this once, please just copy and paste it to every other splittet Brainstorm. (use the HTML Source Button at the top if it doesn't work on the easy way) :)

I think it could help the other users to find the related Brainstorms and Topics. :rolleyes:

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

:cool: would be great

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Now let's fall on our knees and pray for Harmattan on the N900 :-)

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Sorry about my ignorance. Is not this already implemented in the last ovi maps version for symbisn?

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

sadly, yes :(

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Does the Harmattan as milestone mean that Fremantle won't ever receive Ovi Maps turn-by-turn navigation at all??

I understood that Nokia announcement about Ovi Maps stated that starting March 2010 ever device GPS capable would be shipped with buit-in free navigation. Maybe they just talked about phones and can say the N900 is a tablet...

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Yes, not from Nokia! :(

Sometimes I'm shortly before to say: "We've bought the wrong device from the wrong company if we want something like this!", but I'm still patient enought. ;)

So, our only hope is our strong community... We have to wait for projects like Navit. So, hopefully, when OviMaps is finished I'm using Navit since a long time. And then they can keep it. Including the advertising to finance their program.

Unfortunately we need Nokia for many other things to improve. Including the annoying thing in my signature. :mad:

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Been around here long enough that "Fixed in Harmattan" comes as no surprise.

And by "long enough", i mean a few months.

Sigh

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Hey Nokia: NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!

The N900 is my FIRST Nokia phone, and the very-blatant lack of support for this device(that launched 1 MONTH ago) from Nokia pretty much insures that this is my LAST Nokia phone. My nearly 2 year old iPhone 3G has turn by turn navigation. I was wrong to think that Nokia would try release a competitive product, because it is clearly NOT competitive.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I would have to disagree with you there, yes its bad they gave ovi maps free for everyone else except the n900, But lets look at the big picture. Maemo 5 is the best open source os i have seen out so far and to compare it to iphone os because of one missing program isnt at all logical.

Now as it stand sygic are working on turn by turn navigation for the n900 and i have to say that program is looking pretty damn good(Alot better then ovi maps thats for sure).

From nokias point of view the n900 was made so that people like us(small time programers) Dont have to wait for nokia or any other developer to make an application we want as we have the tools to do it oureselves. Thats the number reason why i bought the n900 in the first place, come one the iphone didnt even support mms when it came out and it tooks three years to get it, For the n900 it took just over a month and its getting better and better(thanks frals).

The way i see it im thankful that we get an open source os instead of ovi maps(which isnt all that good if you ask me).

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Ovi Maps is not the only thing which makes Nokia look bad among competitors... I do agree that Maemo openess is a great aspect, but there are things like syncing with Ovi Services and compatibility with Ovi Suite that should be ready by product launch and now don't even have a date to be available!!

Back to Ovi Maps navigation, I would recommend everybody to check Nokia official site for N900. Among its features they clear stated that Ovi Maps has free routing, no word or advise that it don't have voice guidance... which can be a common assumption since even Nokia Maps 1.0 had it. The only way consumers could know it was by researching at forums and reviews!

From my point of view, it is invalid the argument that the owner should had researched before byuing N900 and thus shouldn't be complaining now. By consumer rights the supplier is the responsible for instructing their clients about what they product can or can not do, and I think Nokia lead customers to believe they would have an usefull GPS app (voice guided, turn-by-turn navigation).

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I seem to recall seeing "premium" features (such as turn-by-turn navigation) of Ovi Maps being mentioned as a feature of the N900 (at a cost) on an official Nokia page. Of course, I can't find any trace of it now... if there was any mention of this Nokia removed it, and the wayback machine is failing me. Googling hasn't yet turned up official Nokia word on the subject. Maybe someone can confirm that I'm not going crazy and that Nokia deceived us and falsely advertised a feature?

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Please stay on focus in this thread. There is a full forum for you to discuss anything else.

Also take into account that we use Brainstorm to improve collaboration, not to argue about the decisions communicated. The easiest for us would be to say nothing until official release announcements are made.

If you want turn by turn navigation for Fremantle then at least Sygic is working on this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34409

What the Brainstorm resolution is saying is that free car and walk navigation worldwide as explained at http://maps.nokia.com/explore-services/ovi-maps will be delivered in Harmattan.

We haven't announced or discussed anything about this version delivered in the Harmattan timeline supporting the N900 or not.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Posts not related to Ovi Maps have been moved to the Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900? thread, where they belong. Please let's stick to "Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation" here.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Perhaps now would be a good time for Nokia to discuss why Nokia is turning their backs on a brand new device and implementing turn by turn navigation on their MUCH cheaper line-up? The lack of an 'official word' from Nokia about this feature ever coming to the N900 is extremely disheartening.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Will it have offline POI search? Please? :D

Because it really bugs me when I try to search for POI on the current Ovi Maps on the N900 and I cant because there's no active connection (I don't have 3G.. :( )

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

when I bought my N900 I really did not even think about the possibility it not having voice guided navigation. Turn by turn navigation + no voice, is no safe way to navigate and drive. Should actually be prohibited by law. I compare it to reading SMS while driving.
I just hope that my smartphone e71 (which I by the way use as phone, not N900- being an early adopter of 770 after waiting for a 3G version for 5 years) gets free navigation...

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

A technical answer:

Voice assisted turn-by-turn navigation was already implemented in Symbian. What has changed is the licensing: paid service before and now free. This is a complex business changes followed by a rather simple technical implementation.

The same feature was not implemented in Maemo and a change in the business strategy doesn't change the fact that the feature needs to be implemented and, well, it's not a trivial one.

The Maemo 5 Ovi Maps app is not based in any of the official frameworks of Maemo 6. Therefore (again, form a technical point of view) it makes sense to focus on the Harmattan version. Let me insist that nobody has said anything about that version running or not on the N900.

Voice assisted turn-by-turn navigation for Maemo 5 will be available as a paid app from a software vendor. This matches the usual offering, even if (true) it doesn't yet match the very high standard Nokia has just set (currently for Symbian devices).

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

The following section needs to be changed here under "Integrated A-GPS":

"Find your position quickly and accurately with the built-in Assisted-GPS receiver. The Nokia N900 works seamlessly with Ovi Maps to give you the quickest available route as you make your way from A to B"

While the first part of this statement is true regarding A-GPS, we've already established that the 2nd half of this statement is false. It should read something like:

"The Nokia N900 sometimes works with Ovi Maps, providing routes from A-B much less effectively than the cheaper Symbian line-up. *The device is NOT recommended for in-vehicle use since Ovi Maps requires the driver to have to read directions from the device. Please purchase any other device on the market to enable this feature."

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Is it needed to state the obvious?

Ovi Maps gives routes. "Routing" and "navigation" ("voice assisted" "turn by turn") are different things and are all common terms in the market with precise meanings.

The Nokia N900 specs and marketing materials are correct. If still you are unhappy please exercise your customer rights with Nokia Care. Let me remind you once more that we are here to collaborate.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Whilst of course technically correct, one would expect that if using the term 'Ovi Maps' for the N900, the majority of buyers would assume the same functionality that all 'Ovi Maps' have on Nokia devices. Especially considering that the N900 is a high end device, no one would expect such a big feature be missing. If the N900 does not get turn by turn, I and many other customers would find Nokias approach slightly disingenuous.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I developed an editor for OpenStreeMap (well not released), digged in navit source code, and have two year of experience as user and developer on my Openmoko freerunner.
After a lot of time we did not succeed to have a free turn by turn navigation system (several reasons). The problem is anyway maps data are not free or in open format, and that openstreetmap data are incomplete.

So actually the only way to have a free navigation system on the N900 is to get free ovi maps 3 on maemo5, or to hope that navit developers will have access to map format already freely downloadable for the device.

Well, why the problem? becouse when I go on the nokia site I see a big banner "With Ovi Maps free gps navigation system on your nokia" and that on the n900 there is *already* ovi maps.

So users just expect that a device that arrived only in these weeks on regular shops and that costs about 600 euros is on the list of supported devices (I have an old n70 too, but really I do not pretend to have ovi maps on it!)

Ok, it's not. Why? If this is a precise marketing line it's simply not acceptable. personally 600 euros for me is a lot of money, I'll skip maemo6, and may be I'll buy a new device (maemo7), and just want to be satisfied of my n900 for at least a couple of years.

But I really to not think this is the reality, and as posted before it's a technical problem, but even here I cannot guess why!
So just think nokia may decide to not use the man power to support maemo5, in this case please involve the community, I think that a lot of us may help in creating some sort of "framework compatibility layer".

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I suspect it'd be much better to complain about marketing inaccuracies to Nokia Care than here :-)

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

This is the thread where the announcement was made that N900 probably won't get turn-by-turn navigation. I can understand the confusion by those thinking this is the place to protest that decision.

nicola.mfb: I was actually just saying the same thing about the N900 to my roommate tonight while we fiddled around with Ovi maps trying to get somewhere. I told him i was generally happy with the device but there were a few things like Ovi that needed work but could only be fixed by Nokia, and that Ovi was such a case because free and open map data just isn't up to the challenge yet. It's an interesting point you make about them making the data available so that a community map program can do what Ovi fails to do. I mean, we have the data already, don't we?

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

From a technical point of view it is very reasonable to use the manpower to focus on the Harmattan Version. I bet, like the rest of the system UI, this version is then written in QT.

So, they have to port them from GTK to QT. The work has just began or finished. So it is not reasonable to develop the old GTK Version and the new QT Version when the end of GTK is scheduled.

We've got soon full QT 4.6 support for the N900.
Advertised here many times: "Develop as much as you can from now on in QT, not in GTK. So the Programms could run under Harmattan without rewriting the code. (or only small changes)"

So, when the Harmattan Version of OVI Maps is based on QT and it is a, from the system firmware, independent Software. Shouldn't it be so hard to port it for the N900 when the Harmattan Version is relased?

So the only reason to point this to Harmattan is because of the long time of development?


Hmm... just a couple of own thoughts.

I bet, qgil wont answer. I'm sure, he's hacked off by this topic... and I can understand this very good. :)


Personnally, I already knew about the lack in OVI maps when I ordered the N900. But I thought it's only a early beta. "Wait 3 Month and Nokia will fix it. They got the source from the Symbian Version. No problem. They have only to rewrite the UI." But, I guess, I was mistaken. :(

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Based on the misleading "marketing" practices of Nokia with regard to OVI and the N900, I am beginning to think even "fixed in harmattan" is dubious.

Why, when entering an address in contacts does the N900 assign an OVi maps icon to it if clicking on it does nothing?
These "fixed in harmattan" reports are for single issues and are by no means an indicator that "OVI" as a whole will be fixed.

Is there posted anywhere by Nokia a bullet list of actual features planned for fremantle? Are there goals set for harmattan?

...or will Nokia simply allow bloggers and tech support to point to a resolved bug report of a single issue when asked about OVI as a whole, load the new device and marketing collateral with images of "OVI", and let future customers believe what they want?

The Map program shipped by Nokia on the N900 is in no way complete. Demo versions of TomTom from 3 years ago have more features enabled. There is zero integration with other apps, no way to enter or edit POI’s, and the thing doesn’t even support the N900’s on screen keyboard. The simplest of tasks required by any mapping program is to find or show the way home. With this app you cannot do that without tedium.

Turn by turn navigation is the least of its short comings. I fear that in harmatten we may see turn by turn, and nothing else. I am more disappointed that some of the other issues may not be addressed in fremantle.

…and before anyone suggests I search the bug reports to find the answer or “feel free” to propose or vote for yet another brainstorm, How about no. How about instead, fly a group of Nokia executives to a town 500 miles away, give them each an N900, the keys to a rental car, and then tell them to find their way home.

…or better yet, find their way to a meeting scheduled the next day to discuss OVI services on the N900. They can find the address in an email that was sent to them. :)

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Well, as qt 4.6 will land on maemo5 it's not a toolkit problem, so we may restrict to:

* different wm standard, xatoms, etc. but should be trivial to fix
* different middleware to interact with gps, geodata, contacts etc.
* other things that does not come to my mind actually

Oh I hope qgil will not abandone this thread, I imagine easily that he may be quite bored, but as he said let's try to collaborate.

Continuing on the technical aspect, and on the point that big part of nokia man power is dedicated to maemo6, do not understimate the man power of community.

I'll happy to collaborate in a community developer team to adapt ovi map 3 for maemo5, signing an NDA if necessary.
If that's not possible to be sure that code will remain private, we may develop a "middleware compatibility layer", using only the exposed API.

Wath do you think about that?

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I think that would be a huge gesture of good will from Nokia, and make everyone a lot less disgruntled, but i'm not sure if their contract with the map data provider will allow it. We may be restricted to reverse-engineering the storage format if we want to "roll our own" solution.

How about it, Quim? Any chance of opening the maps data format for community projects to make use of?

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

AFAIK, the maps are from Navteq and Nokia acquired Navteq in 2008.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

Ovi maps on the n900, like a lot of things on the n900, feels like it's half finished and just chucked on there. Does anyone know if the maemo team in Nokia are a large group or well resourced? It feels to me like they are talented programmers and have a better grasp than the Symbian guys, but it also feels like they are a small team who really could do with a lot more team members/resources from Nokia to back them up. I fear we won't get the Maemo we would like not because of a lack of effort or skill but simply a lack of people power. I can understand for this reason that resources will be focussed on getting Maps ready for Qt4.6/Harmattan but I still want and expect an updated release to be n900 compatible in some form.

I'd really like to see Nokia getting behind Maemo and pushing it, it has the potential to take on androids and the iphone OS. From my limited understanding reading blogs like Engadget and the like I was under the impression that Maemo was the long term solution for Nokia. However, following the release of the Symbian roadmap and decisions such as this one with Ovi maps, i feel Maemo is still the red headed step child in the Nokia family.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I didn't mean to imply that my feelings are prompted by the lack of effort on the part of Nokia coders in the least bit. The improvements over Diablo are simply amazing.

I'm sure the grunts on this project are fully aware of the limitations... The cause of these feelings of ill on my part may have more to do with the executives within Nokia that had a greater effect on what was delivered.

I would venture to guess that QG, et al heard "Good enough" and "Time to move on" many times from these execs who ultimately allocated resources. Perhaps these are the same executives who scraped the "Free Navigation" turd on to everyones plate just as other map issues were coming to light.

As far as Nokia providing anything for the community to develop; how about starting with something simple like a POI loader and then moving up?
Support for the on screen keyboard should be another. If this app was presented by a community member, that would be one of the first "bugs" that the community as a whole would focus on.

In fact, if the app was presented to the community in a new "announcement" thread like any other community developed app, potential users would have greater satisfaction in the sense that they can influence and track future development.

That^ last bit about missing the ability to "influence and track future development" applies to all of the "Nokia Applications" delivered with the phone.

Perhaps that is the subject of yet another "brainstorm" in order to save readers from the boredom someone recently spoke of. :)

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I understood all the technical reasons why to focus on the Harmattan version, thanks for the explanation. As already said probably you mean by that Ovi Maps on Harmattan will be based on Qt4.6 while current Ovi Maps on Freemantle is GTK, right?

What I can't understand is why Nokia spent resources developing this GTK version, which is being constantly criticized due to lack of turn-by-turn navigation, when they could launch N900 without Ovi Maps at all. Maybe then we could get a fully functional Ovi Maps together with Qt4.6 framework due to the next firmware update.

I guess the reason to invest on a GTK version could be either technical, to detect bugs in features like routing calculation that shouldn't need porting to the Harmattan version, and/or even commercial demands, just to avoid launching a device without GPS application, which could hurt sales since competitors have it.

At least one thing I think most member will agree: the current uncertainty on Maemo/N900/Ovi roadmaps is just diverting attention from the collaboration itself.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

If you are interested in Ovi Maps data or API I recommend you to make one step closer to the project itself:

Info: http://www.forum.nokia.com/Ovi/Ovi_M...ayer_API.xhtml
Wiki: http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.ph...for_developers
Forum: http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/fo...play.php?f=159

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

If the current version of Ovi maps would have automatic route recalculation, it would already be (just) usable for navigation imo. Sure, it would still lack a lot of features such as off-line address searching etc., but the basis would be there.

I always assumed the capability was in there, but not switched on because of anticipation towards licensing/marketing options. But now that it has become free, that limitation is gone. I'm (naively) hoping this will be switched on in the next firmware.

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

After reading this thread I started some time ago, I feel that the conversation is going slightly on the wrong direction. This is Brainstorm, not Complaints. Whatever the marking department may or may not have said, has nothing to do with this thread. I personally feel talk.maemo.org is not the best place to address this kind of complaints, certainly not the Brainstorm section. If you prefer to use this forum anyway for this purpose, please use General, N900 or Maemo 5 section, but not Brainstorm nor this thread. Thank you for understanding. :)

Now, as for the real subject. I'm happy that Maemo will get (eventually ;)) free Voice Guided Turn by Turn Navigation. As some of you have already pointed out, it will be most probably based on Qt. This very reasonable, since not only is Maemo 6 based on it, but also the future Symbian versions. However, I'm not so sure that it's necessarily based on Qt 4.6. I, at least, have not seen any info about it. It could be based on some future Qt version.

Therefore, I would like to receive answers to the following questions about Ovi Maps for Maemo:

1. If it is based on Qt, what version?
2. Will it be a separate installable app?
3. Will it be compatible with N900?
4. Can the community do something to make it work with the N900?
5. Is there a beta testing and how can one paticipate? :D
6. Oh, and the most important: when is it planned to be realised? :p

I would appreciate if qgil or someone else from Nokia, could give some answers. Although I do strongly doubt all the questions will be answers any time soon, especially the last one. :D

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

From Sasler and qgil last posts I did some research and came to some conclusions that sound like a conspiracy theory, but anyway seemed to me a possible strategy from Nokia which would make sense...

These are the know facts until now:
- Nokia extensively advertised that Qt is strategic due to platform independence, and its implementation would ease a lot the portability between Symbian and Maemo, or even other O.S. like Windows Mobile, provided that all use Qt libraries.
- Qt 4.6 for Maemo is in beta stage and should be supported officially by the next firmware update PR1.2, which is rumored to be release by March/April
- Maemo developers are being instructed to focus their development on Qt to avoid incompatibility on Harmattan
- Ovi Maps 3.03 for Symbian was only made available for mobiles running S60 fp3 and fp5 editions, and its graphical interface changed considerably since the last edition.
- Qt 4.6 for Symbian is available only for S60 fp3 and fp5, and some features from Qt like Kinetic scrolling were implemented on Nokia 5800 for example.

Now the conspiracy part:
- I believe Ovi Maps 3.03 for Symbian is based on Qt, but couldn't find details about its code. It may be a coincidence, but now it is only available for devices which have support for Qt4.6
- If the above assumption is true, really wouldn't make sense to invest in the current Ovi Maps for Maemo, which most likely is not based on Qt since it wasn't officially supported at N900 launch
- When N900 gets official support Qt4.6 it will be much easier porting applications for Symbian already based on Qt, and that could include Ovi Maps 3.03
- I asked Nokia USA customer care and they told me that free turn-by-turn navigation will be offered soon for N900, not Maemo 6/Harmattan. I am not sure if the guy really had this confirmation or made some mistake, but anyway here is the email:
================================================== ===
From nokiausa.customercare@nokia.com
Sent: Tue, 2 Feb 2010, 14:33:48 BRST
To my_email@gmail.com
Subject RE: Phone Features

> Hi Alex,
>
> Thank you for e-mailing the Nokia Care Contact Center. We are glad that you are
> interested in the Nokia N900
> Based on your concern, the voice guided navigation on the N900 is currently not
> yet availble though it will be offered soon. For future updates regarding this
> matter, you can visit our website through www.nokia.com. I hope the
> information provided proves useful.
> If you have any additional question, please don't hesitate to contact us again.
> To ensure proper handling of your case, kindly continue using the current
> subject line Thank you very much for your email. Have a great day.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Mark Bañas
> Email Specialist
> Nokia Inc.
> [THREAD ID:1-4XBUE4I]
================================================== ===

It would like to hear from you if I am going crazy or there could be some logic behind these assumptions....

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

To follow up on this (since there is way to much FUD on this matter on the internet and in these forums), I took the scary concept of actually talking to Nokia Care in the UK today and was told the same story as above. Turn by turn voice guided Sat Nav would be available for free on the N900.
The conversation was wooly about when we would get it, but factual that we would get it. The operative was saying hopefully in the next FW release but could not confirm that as a definate. If they are fibbing I cannot do much about that, but I have a call reference so if they are fibbing I will be seeking due compensation for strangely the same amount of cash to deploy Sygic!!!

Re: [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation
 

I realise of course the flaming I may get for the above may warrant me wearing fire prove under trousers, but I will worry that as I am driving around the country guided by my fair beauty, the N900.....