Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

In response to this thread, among others, by angry members who want friendlier forums by posting angry threads I have taken the liberty to try to summarize what I think they're actually trying to say.

I have compiled them to a list of guidelines for making maemo.org a friendlier place to visit and ask questions (and yes I know it's been discussed earlier but as shown previously telling people to search it doesn't go down too well, and perhaps it shouldn't):

1. Don't just tell people to google their problems, at least not without tips on what to search for.
Chances are that they've tried this before posting, but perhaps they didn't quite know what to search or the answers were too technical for them or whatever.

2. Let's try to use the same sort of feedback that people use to friends.
It's perfectly OK, in my opinion, to have some sarcasm as long as it's followed by something friendly and useful. don't just post sarcastic remarks, it's just as unrewarding as posting angry rants.

3. If you want help ask for it in a civilized manner, please.
Understand that the people in this forum wrote a lot of the programs and infrastructure that you're using, so they can help you a lot better than most other people could. But as a general rule, don't start a plea for help by insulting the people who can help you.

I keep it at three because I think that'll be enough for significant improvement and also you won't have to read a three page post.

Hope this helps clear up the the swamp of angry posts from people who want friendlier posts, and the angry posts that sometimes follow them.

EDIT: I really didn't think it had to be said but (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=38318)...

4. Please try to be constructive with posts and don't be openly hostile to the community, its members, its rules etc. be critical if something isn't working well and you think it can be improved, but not in a hostile manner.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Oh, for crying out loud!

We're turning into a society of Politically Correct Vaginas! God forbid, someone gets their widdle (little) feelings hurt on the Internet.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Well...

I'm working on a program to bring more developers into the Maemo fold. Community outreach stuff. Raising the maturity level should help in that regard, which will benefit us all.

That said, I realize many of my own posts haven't helped. They've been made in frustration over moderation policies, but that doesn't excuse it. Mea culpa.

I'm against political correctness, but I'm definitely for more civility all around.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Well I'm not saying that it has to be PC, you can post about whatever you'd like, it is an open forum after all, but please let's try to keep the posts above the waist at least!

I've made posts myself that haven't always followed these guidelines when I've been frustrated or just tired, but making the effort to go back and put something useful in the next day helps a lot I think.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

If and when N900 will get more popular, I hope new communities will raise. Forums targetted to plain users and maybe for commercial software developers are the kind that will take some noise away from this forum. People will be less frustraited, since same topics are not opened over and over again...

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

I'd like a "No Thanks" button to be added. Then the silent majority could meta-moderate as seen on other forums. First candidate post: #2 in this thread :D

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Yawn....

And I'd like for some people to grow more than the two brain cells that seem to be having enough of a hard time regulating their breathing, let alone other mental functions necessary for daily use. But chances are, it will never happen for some.

How about you go sign up to be a moderator and actually moderate, instead of "meta-moderating" silently?

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

I still think this is a non-problem. We have 29,074 registered users, and maybe every other month or so I see one of them complaining about how bad the tone in this forum is. So that would be 6 complaints a year... let's be generous and make it 12... and let's also assume it's 12 distinct users who complain. Out out 29,074.

I admit there may be a few forum members here who just don't follow the rules of civilized communications. Well, you can always ignore these. I think there's currently two or three nicknames on my ignore list, and that was it. Again, two or three out of 29,074.

What I'm trying to say is yes, there may be single incidents that you could point your finger at and say "Here! Look! That wasn't nice!" - but compared to the mass of posts generated here each day, it's not worth dealing with them more than we do now.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

I think this is a good idea, generally. Question is if it is necessary, though.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Well the 'Thanks!' button doesn't get used much by most people but would be nice to see a pair of 'Agree' and 'Disagree' to reduce the number of 'Me too' and 'No way' posts that appear.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

I agree that the vast majority of posters here go about it in a very civilized manner, but the few that don't create a lot of problems I think.

Perhaps the most worrying thing, to me at least, is where these types of uncivilized posts appear. In my, albeit rather limited, experience on this forum the majority of animosity is found on the threads posted by new users or most likely to be read by new, or prospective for that matter, users. That means that it has a discouraging effect for new people to join the community, which may be a big problem, especially if say Texrat is trying to get new developers on board and the first thing they see is animosity towards questions.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

F'king "A", bubba...

I see sub-forums now and that is a start. A lot could be eliminated if a simple "Phone related" forum with sub-fora was created. Then the mislabeled "rude, know-it-all, geek types" can avoid those posts altogether and hopefully specific Maemo 2, 3, 4, and 5 threads can carry on as they have in the past.

As far as political correctness goes, what works for me is to treat forums like a huge cocktail party.
There are some discussions you don't want to be a part of, some guests you enjoy being around no matter what is discussed, and other guests you try to avoid making eye contact with.

Within these conversations people will react pretty much the same on a forum or at a cocktail party. If someone wants to enter a conversation, people are generally polite and make them feel comfortable. If that new person tries to dominate the conversation or redirect it to one about themselves, or inject vitriol, unless they are Julia Roberts, most others will walk away to "freshen their drink" or something.

Since Julia hasn't showed up yet, I've been freshening my drink a lot lately. :D

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

is there a possibility to add couple of links to talk front page?

http://wiki.maemo.org/New_users

http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_basics

http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Beginners

I bet those plus users manual covers 80-90% questions asked.

It seems that having those at your signature doesn't help at all, one must first ask it and after some greeter has replied, he'll get the links.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

The majority of my postings are around the media or market and how the devices is being approached rather than how do i do X with my phone. But I have had that twice and when I PM'd or created a posting they were answered quickly and without sarcasm. On the PM response I went back to the relevant forum and posted a how to... Great huh! Well it would have been better if I or someone else had added it to the Wiki.

It is important to have phenomenal FAQ's and How-tos that will make life easier for newbies. (myself one of them).

One thing that may help is making the wiki more robust and easy to access. Maybe similar to how you query the forums for like posts run the query against the wiki. (like a google search of the site)

If someone were to put together a How-To template and encouraged people to build and submit (for review / testing) I think it could add a lot of value.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

It would definitely be a start, but I've worked selling electronics and dealing with end users, and you will still be asked the same questions over and over, it's pretty much unavoidable. But when you do, it's important to deal with them in as friendly a way as possible.

The good thing is that you learn a lot along the way and after while you'll be extremely proficient in dealing with these requests in a smooth and easy way.

It's not much fun though, sadly.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

One thing I don't like is how the Wiki is hidden. Heck I keep forgetting it exists once in a while. Perhaps there should be a Wiki/FAQ link on the forum itself.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

I think you are terribly wrong. Just mention the Iphone positively and you can crank up the number of flaming programmatically.

Else I totally agree to the creator of the thread.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

you are always going to have people that are passionate about something and you will always get little flamewars happening - we have 2 options that you might be familiar with:

Benevolent Dictator or Free Society.

• the Benevolent Dictator will review topics and remove the ones that don't or won't sit well with how they believe the forum should run.
• In the Free Society we love freedom that allows people to voice (dissenting) opinions and accept the responsibility that goes with it. This would create a self policing forum.

I prefer the free society but believe we need more self policing tools in order to grow as a community as our ranks continue to swell. There are a variety of ways to enable self policing and we can look at a number of models that currently exist with minimal supervision - a la craigslist.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Agreed,

The problem is, that even if the wiki was in such a place that it stared someone dead smack in the face when they logged on, chances are, it wouldn't be used all that much by newcomers.

Some people nowadays would rather post a "Hey, dow do I turn my phone on" type question (I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea), instead of reading through a wiki in order to find their answers...

They don't bother to do a quick search before posting, what makes "us" think they'd bother reading some "silly" (in their eyes) wiki before asking their question.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Not that I disagree with any particular point of this entire thread. But keep in mind when you use references like this.....

you got paid.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

[JC]Yeah? Well I think you're wrong, shee.[/JC] But let's give it a try:

It is my opinion that the iPhone is an absolutely stupendous device!

CAUTION: Old guy ranting and calling the kettle black

As far as this topic goes, I would like to see more of the problem children get time outs. If you can time out God for 10 days, then anything is possible.

I don't believe in censorship and I don't use an ignore list, but I also don't let my 5 year old do all of the cooking. But one day I will. :) Some of these punks that have recently arrived think this forum is their own personal bathroom stall and some of us don't mind telling them to fuuck off. Their parents have partially failed them and so unfortunately it has fallen to us. Let's just accept this responsibility and move on. And for you more skin-thinned decent folk, I suggest you use the report button and your ignore list so that your experience here can be a pleasant one.

And I third the ignore thread concept.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Everybody vote!

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...d_in_solution1

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

high five.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Maybe we could add a Flame War forum and let OrangeBox ("This community is full of egotistical, i-know-it-all type geeks") and That One Guy ("We're turning into a society of Politically Correct Vaginas") sit in there and throw feces at each other.

Seriously, it would be nice to have a thumbs down for a post as well as a thanks.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Please see here and read Solution #11.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Seen, read, and thumbed.

I've been participating in the forum improvement thread and brainstorm as well but while it's easy enough to follow the thread, I find myself not bothering to check brainstorm as often as I should.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Yes very true, perhaps not the best analogy in that remark. My point was simply that in any contact with end-users there will be questions coming at you constantly and probably 90% of them are just repeats. This is just something you have to deal with, and I think the same thing will probably happen here.

If it helps with the motivation my customers were usually out the door in 20min, whereas people here stick around, so being rude to them creates a lot more headaches in the future.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

i do wonder how many times i have gotten a "can't you just do it?" when i have pointed someone to a howto about something they asked about (generic, not this forum in particular).

hell, i recently read that people have returned perfectly working products because they could not get something to work. A something that was clearly spelled out in the manual for said product...

all in all, a person may be a professor. But outside the field of expertice, may be no better then homer...

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Well this is it really, we're all good at something but we're also all stupid at something.

A lot of the people who find computers difficult aren't stupid people in general, they just don't understand computers.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Not necessarily... just means we get to be mean to them over, and over, and over again..... which can be fun in it's own right... ;)

(I am, of course, joking..)

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Things that customers have yelled at me for while I was working weekends as a sales associate:

1. could not figure out how to set the alarm on his cell phone (20min rant)
2. the manual of said phone should have been written more clearly (another 10)
3. our receipts were too big (10min)
4. the fact that I failed to specify that the customer needed to pay for the internet connection separately from purchasing their new laptop. (30min)

One of these people was a professor at my Uni.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

not surprising, given the number of people payed hansomly to do just that.

basically, the worst thing done in home computing was to make people think computers are easy...

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Maybe I'm odd... but when I run into something I can't do... I decide how important it is and either hire the professional to do it for me... or spend ungodly amounts of time researching google for the answers myself.

It's not very often I'll even attempt to get someone else to help me.. for free. In fact.. it makes me feel guilty.

I'm not necessarily saying people shouldn't ask questions... they should just be a little more flexible about the kind of service they are going to get when they want it for free... (this isn't a pass to be a prick.. but really: you get what you pay for really.. like anything in life..)

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

I think one issue may be that Nokia was bigging up the open-source community to the point that people felt that as the experts were readily available you wouldn't need to work so much to find the answer.

Basically it's the choice between spending ungodly amounts of time on google or just asking a community where a lot of people will already know the answer, the second one takes very little effort (on the one part).

Perhaps this is the real issue that is causing the sometimes unfriendly vibes, we need to find a way to deal with these questions to minimize the disruption and annoyance they may cause for the people "in the know". Well that and develop some sort of standardize response to people applauding apps/iPhone, besides the now standard "go buy an iPhone" one.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

You hire professionals or do massive amounts of research for EVERYTHING in your life?

You never ever ask someone else for some free advice?

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Computers CAN be easy, if they're designed with their target audience in mind.

The Nintendo Wii is technically a computer, it lets you surf the web, play games, send e-mail etc. But it has an interface that is extremely easy to use because it was designed for people who do not know anything about computing.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Krisse-- he also says he researches on his own.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Pretty much... if I ask someone a question it's usually a friend. Not a stranger.

I pay mechanics to change my oil, work on my car, etc. Some people change their own oil, it's not that hard, I choose not to. I pay someone else to do it.

if something in my house breaks.. I don't go ask a stranger or a neighbor to come over and fix it for me.. I'll look up online how to fix it and buy the parts I need.

Give me examples... I'll tell you what I do with them. The only time I feel comfortable asking someone something... is if I know them, and that's usually because I've helped them, for free, in the past with their computers.

(When you're a geek... you pretty much get asked computer questions from everyone from family, friends, weird people that heard your name from random people that heard your name from.... :rolleyes:)

So in that aspect it's more of a trade... I've helped them, they help me. *shrug*.

I really very highly doubt I'm one of the people that new users complain about... if you look around I'm (almost) always courteous or provide something helpful in my posts. I do understand people's frustration, however. Too many people want a free lunch without doing any work of their own. If that's what they want.. then I do believe they should pay for it.

And freppas - if you have any ideas on how we can limit that kind of thing, we could use the help and attention over here.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Oh I wasn't thinking that at all! :)

I was just trying to clarify what you meant.

I know it's annoying if someone seems too lazy to look something up, I just meant there are bound to be some situations where your friends can't help and you can't afford a professional. Especially if it's an obscure technical topic.

Re: Campaign for a Friendlier Maemo
 

Not usually.. not for me anyway. I have found some *really* obscure topics on backwater no where forums before from google (usually after several days or weeks of trying very odd combinations of search strings).

I will admit.. I've joined IRC channels for Ruby, and Perl before... unfortunately, however, by the time I have a problem it's so unique and complex that they can't really help me without looking at my entire application and going through my code line by line with me. I usually find my problem long before someone is willing to put that kind of effort into it for me. And its never before I've spent hours googling myself.

Now, I understand I'm not your standard user and my specific situation should not be used as such. I love computers and everything about them and I love problems - a problem is a way to learn for me and something to lookup online (in fact I break things intentionally sometimes). Helping users is a way to see new problems. Most users, do not revolve their life around computers like I do.

This entire topic, though, is very common in almost *any* open source community. Those helping are donating their time, those inquiring are getting help - but those helping can sometimes feel that the other is impatient, and sometimes stupid or lazy, for not bothering to even try and help themselves - while those getting help can feel talked down to, or that the person "helping" is treating, or making them, feel stupid for asking.

I am Bias, of course, I am usually the one helping.. and it's my opinion when you do ask for something for free... your right to complain is significantly lessened. I make no excuses for people to be outright d*cks though. There have of course been examples here of "experts" being this way - I don't think it's as rampant as people seem to present, however.

The main reason I chime into any of these kinds of topics or debates, is far too often I see people blaming the "experts" - but no solutions are offered to fix the problems on the other side of the transaction as well. Even the nicest guy in the world has his limits..