Nokia's policy on whether changing the N900 firmware violates warranty
 

I've been told off over at discussions.europe.nokia.com for talking about debranding an N900

Thing is, I suggested a user tried a different firmware on their rebooting N900 device.. This isn't debranding since the N900s are branded.. it is simply using a different yet completely available N900 firmware from tablets-dev.nokia.com

Question is.. WILL changing the firmware INVALIDATE the warranty?

The end user terms and conditions on the download page doesn't seem to mention anything.. and with projects like Mer and details of compiling different kernels documented on Maemo.org, you'd think it was fine.. otherwise why would be there..

If Nokia make 4 different firmwares available but do not want you to change them they need to make this very very clear.. and not by deleting posts on the discussion forums!

I don't mind being told off, but I didn't think I'd done anything wrong and I was only trying to help a user with problems using tools made available openly to all N900 users!!

Can someone from Nokia maybe let us know directly what we can and can't do, then I can pass that information on to people I'm trying to help..

Bottom line, I thought I was helping and I'd like confirmation changing/altering firmware invalidates warranty

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

sure if anything goes wrong he can always change the firmware back.

also the firmware comes up when you put in your imei so i doubt they can say that you were not suppose to put it on it.

also all n900 have the same hardware so all firmware should run perfectly on all of them so that shouldnt effect the warranty!!

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

if you use NSU it logs your device and what firmware you have on it, how many times you've updated your device and with what versions etc, so they know you've been changing firmware just by putting your imei number in the computer at the care centre.
not sure how it works with the other flashing tool as i've not used any.
changing product code on s60 to get different firmware versions invalidates your warranty, if they decide to do a check when you send it for repair and repair guy is a tosser, but sometimes they dont care its like a lotto but not worth the gamble.
so i'd expect them to go with same policy across all there devices

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

For a long time (until I logged a bug report to have to fixed) Nokia didn't provide the UK firmware on the tablets-dev site.. so for some time any UK user who re-flashed would now have the "wrong" firmware.. I hope this doesn't mean they all have invalidated their warranty!!

NSU might be able to do this with Symbian and S40 handsets, but I wonder if it does this with Maemo! Interesting

Besides, installing a different firmware (perhaps not even Maemo) using flasher doesn't require a product code change as debranding would nor does it require 3rd party or nokia internal software to do it..

I think there is a case for "you didn't make it difficult or say it was unauthorized" flasher-3.5 and all the firmware versions are available to all N900 users.. this is why I'd really like some Nokia official input! If it is bad, I'd refrain from suggesting it ever again!!

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

to change firmware version on NSU you have to use a tool to change product code before hand as its product code what determines what firmware gets pulled from server for you. i dont konw if theres such tool to change product code on maemo but if there is and you change NSU will log that change when connecting to servers to update

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Well, as far as the forums are concerned I'm betting it's a undertrained forum cleanup person that doesn't really "get" Maemo so wouldn't take too much away from that.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I hope so! I think I'd hoped Maemo might leave some of the problems associated with firmware on S60 and other Nokia handsets for dust! It's never a good idea to upset a mod, but at the same time it's good to know the official stand on the matter!

Point is, NvyUs is right, you need nasty third party software.. or even worse Nokia internal software to change a product code on a regular handset..

But from the flasher help:
flasher-3.5 -h

-h, --hw-revision=ARG Specify product code and HW revision

It's an official public tool.. if using that would break the terms of the warranty, Nokia *REALLY* need to let people know less they ruin their warranty out of curiosity!

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Your warranty only invalidates if you change the ProductCode of the device

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

That I can understand, that applies to all other handsets..

I'd never recommend changing the product code.. Thankfully flasher kind of removes the need to do so. Why else would you want to change it other than to get a different firmware?! Dunno...

Installing alternative firmware doesn't seem to care about product codes if using flasher..

If this rule applies to the N900 flasher should at least have a warning (using this option will void your warranty) It is fairly dangerous to provide an end user tool that voids a warranty without warning..

Maybe that should be raised as bug for flasher.. then again, they might take the functionality away for those who are already outside their warranty (like European buyers who bought from the USA)

Changing product codes... bad... changing firmware... also bad? dunno

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

HW revision != product code

As far as I'm aware there's only one product code for the N900 anyway.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

That is true.. perhaps it refers to only the hardware revision.. but there are definitely multiple product codes, in the traditional sense:

0582648: RX-51 Belgium
0584571: RX-51 Croatia Makedonia
0584572: RX-51 Czech
0591362: RX-51 Estonia
0574180: RX-51 France
0574383: RX-51 Germany
0591474: RX-51 Hungary
0574385: RX-51 Italy
0583516: RX-51 Light Swap
0582647: RX-51 MENA
0585168: RX-51 Montenegro Greece
0582645: RX-51 Netherlands
0582644: RX-51 Poland
0574386: RX-51 Russia
0574179: RX-51 Scandinavia Finland Sweden
0587236: RX-51 Scandinavia Norway Denmark
0584570: RX-51 Slovakia
0574384: RX-51 Spain Portugal
0584598: RX-51 Swap
0587813: RX-51 Swap France
0587810: RX-51 Swap Russia
0587812: RX-51 Swap USA
0560826: RX-51 UK Ireland
0580952: RX-51 USA
0593611: UK CV

but unlike regular Nokia's there aren't unique firmware versions for each..

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

The HW revision tells you the build version of the hardware, I don't know where the product code is stored.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I would find it strange because on nokia's official forum flashing the device is being used as remedies to a host of problems for instance

http://discussions.nokiausa.com/disc...thread.id=1289

Am I missing something ? I hope I haven't misunderstood something, if I have let me know I want to be clear on something that can invalidate my warranty. Thanks

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

That's the problem!! I wrote the solution for that thread and a similar thread (that didn't involve R&D mode) was deleted because of a "debranding / warranty issue"!!

If using Nokia's own tools to get a device up and running again is a bad thing for the warranty, they REALLY need to let people know otherwise those trying to help could just be making it worse for people!

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Ok let me make this clear.

Reflashing your N900 will NOT void warranty - especially not if you use nokia tools and nokia firmware.

It would be ridiculous from Nokia, providing you with the tools, the firmware, and a handset build on opensource technology, and then telling you you are not allowed to reflash or mess around with it.

This is not your regular mobilephone, the default rules do not apply here.
This is Linux - you don't get f*cked for hacking/messing/reflashing it - that's what you are supposed to do, and it's encouraged my nokia.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Well, having read the warranty statement following the phone, it states three things (among other things).

1. Changig or removing the IMEI number may void warranty, if Nokia decides so for each individual case.
2. Using the device together with software (from Nokia) in a way it is not supposed to be used, is not covered by the warranty.
3. Using the device with software not from Nokia, is not covered by the warranty.

So, there it is. If this site is not "Nokia" then the warranty will not cover any damages resulting from installing apps here.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

So, basically, for all the talk about openness, Nokia isn't going to support you any more than Apple supports jailbroken iPhones or carriers support Android users who have gotten root.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

wrong. nokia won't lock rootsh and remove terminal with every fw update...

nokia just can't take responsibility about a code from other sources. why should it take? how easy is it to brick your device for real? i mean that one could get it to state where it won't even boot to flashing mode...

haven't succeeded with my n800 even though I've installed about every alternative OS to it that are discussed here....

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

They should, however, take responsibility for the hardware. A PC manufacturer doesn't invalidate the whole warranty if I install different software, and neither should Nokia.

Though I rather suspect that they don't, and this really is just down to an ignorant forum monkey.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I'd say you you have to kick in your brain right now, guys.. It's only logical, that you can't blame nokia, if your mobile sends 1000 sms spam messages in result of you intalling some 3rd party.. You simply can't sue nokia for such events - unlike on symbian, maemo apps aren't currently digitally signed, so it's a little hard to blame anyone really :)

You can however surely send N900 to a service, with full warranty, if you only installed a few apps from garage (or elsewhere) - and sometimes after that e.g. display suddenly stops working (even after reflash)..

I don't think that hardware is easily destroyable by using sw these days (well, maybe except for the flash memory) - and after reflash, nokia'd have hard time determining that the cause of hardware failure is in user-installed software anyway..

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

That is very true.. however, using a Nokia tool to try and fix a failing Nokia device is very different to using 3rd party software. Can they refuse a warranty claim if that's what you've done!?

I'm talking about using flasher to repair devices that don't boot any more..

The mods over at Nokia's discussion forum seemed to think it would.. enough to delete a thread that suggested (and got a sucessful result) doing just that!!

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

This really isn't about invalidating the warranty, it is about what is covered and what is not on Nokias behalf. Only deleting/removing IMEI and taking the phone apart will (possibly) invalidate the warranty. Besides, there are consumer laws that usuall are much more consumer oriented than these warranties, and laws cannot be omitted by warranties or agreements.

But make no mistake, damage on the phone, casued by software or any other thing, software or hardware not authorized by Nokia, is not covered by Nokias warranty. It is written in the last pages of the manual (or rather the quick start guide). This is of cource totally out of sync with how the N900 is marketed, and Nokia should change this, as this is illegal marketing or an illegal restriction on the warranty. For instance this site:
http://maemo.nokia.com/maemo/
where they talk about the benefts of open source software.

The only possible conclusion is that maemo.org is in fact authorized by Nokia. But what about other open source communities??

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I don't think it's possible to void warranty for N900 (unless you want to change product code and IMEI)

Flashing firmware is ok.
Flashing to another firmware is ok.

It's like a computer, you get it from a shop, it comes with Windows, getting rid of it and put Linux on. When it's broken (hardware wise), you do factory software restore and take it to the shop to fix. There are no way they can tell what you've been doing with it.

I am aware NSU sends all sort of data about the phone to Nokia.
If you are afraid, just use the flasher too and avoid NSU

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

have you read the PC manufacturers warranty terms?

so if i install a software that can override motherboards voltages etc and burn my whole computer, I can sue the manufacturer?

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Going back to the original point..

what if I use the motherboard manufacturer's own publicly available tools to change voltages.. would that affect the warranty?

I appreciate that reflashing the device may leave it in a state that Nokia may not know it has been flashed, but at the same time that would be breaking the terms of warranty if you are effectively covering up what you'd done.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

You really cannot talk about warranty in such a general manner. You have to look at the actual one. Very few things affect the warranty, either something is covered, or it is not. With the N900, the only things that voids warranty (but not neccesarily so), is to physically fix it yourself (take it apart), do something with the IMEI number or throw it in the toilet, in the microwave owen or some similar abuse.

In addition there exists laws in each country, that will blow most of the warrany statements of the N900 out of the water. This is also stated in the warranty of the N900.

Rule of thumb is that you can do whatever you like, except those things that actually voids warranty. But these things can be different from product to product.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I think people are talking about different things here. Installing software(applications) from maemo.nokia.com or Extras repository obviously shouldn't void the warranty and neither should flashing it with official firmware to unbrick it. But if I try to install Android(also software) on the device bricking it in the process I don't expect Nokia to just send me a new one under warranty. I also don't expect the computer manufacturer to replace or fix my computer if something goes wrong with for example linux installation.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Ok, some common sense please.

The device has an intended purpose, which should be clear if you read the user manual.

Nokia can not take responsibility for 3rd party applications, that should also be pretty clear if you read the text presented to you by the application manager when installing from a non-Nokia source.

Simply put, flashing your device with Nokia tools and a Nokia provided flash image will not void warranty.

A totally different question is, what you did to end up in a situation that requires a reflash.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I had a thread deleted by Nokia on the discussion forum because they believed it was discussing debranding and voiding the warranty by flashing the device.. The actual thread was discussing jumping into R&D mode to get a "bricked" device booting again...

Not debranding, not even flashing.. The thread had numerous success reports too! This was why I started this thread.. to find out if using flasher would void the warranty.. since the moderators on Nokia's forum seemed to believe it does..

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Sounds like an interesting thread indeed :-)

Well, the N900 does present a new way of doing things as compared to S60 and S40. Now it is actually possible for end users to flash the device by themselves. The difference in terms might not be clear everywhere yet.

And I guess the official Nokia forum moderation rather errs on the side of caution when a thread drifts close to something that sounds like it shouldn't be done.

P.S. Just as a reminder R&D mode is definitely not something for an average user. It's good for R&D and not much else :-)

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

indeed! The thread was really a compilation of things mentioned on talk.maemo.org and bugs.maemo.org.. the process was enabled r&d, boot, disable r&d... for devices stuck at the "second dot" during booting.. It's well known over here on this forum and since users were arriving at Nokia's other forum I thought it'd be helpful writing it up there..

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I didn't know that trick :-) But then again if I end up with a dead device I have all the tools and knowledge within the same building.

But really sounds like a decision from the moderator to be a bit overly cautious.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I just got off the phone with Nokia support and was told that flashing your device will void the one year warranty. You can install updates and things of that nature but no flashing the device. To do a 'clean' install you must send it in to a Nokia repair center, which are their retail centers. I just called to confirm and the one in Chicago said they are not doing hard resets for the phone. So you have to void the warranty, as confirmed by phone support and the salesman over the phone, to do a hard reset for the phone. Flashing will void the warranty, totally being redundant so you guys understand, and it is the only way to make it 'clean.'

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

That is terrible..

We provide tools, and firmware files.. that any valid user can download.. but if you use them (even following instructions written BY a nokia employee)

http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/...&thread.id=168

then you will void your warranty.. Nokia need to put a big banner on the tablets-dev site.. This WILL or WILL NOT void you warranty (delete as appropriate)

I've asked Adamf over at Nokia discussions to investigate.. He seems very clued up on the N900 and maybe he can find out internally if both he and myself and many other users have suggested others void their warranty by re-flashing to fix problems.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I call ********. Idiot level 1 phone support that doesn't have a clue about Maemo.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

I agree completely.. but I'd still *really* like a big banner that states "it's ok.. your warranty is fine if you do this".. As with previous warranty issues stating that "using your tool voids that warranty? that's fstupid!" counts for nothing when your phone is dead :(

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Agreed. He heard "flash" and thought you were trying to install some pirated software on it.

The EULA (from memory) states that as long as you use your equipment for it's intended use, you are covered by the warranty. Considering that Maemo is by design the software for the N900 (regardless of Maemo 5 version level), you are still running software designed to run on the hardware.

Don't worry, your warranty is safe.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

The warranty is not safe. Call the flagship store in Chicago at 312-670-2607. Then call Nokia care at 888-665-4228. Does not matter which order. You will void the warranty. There is no hard reset option available without voiding your warranty. The only hard reset option is to flash the device. If you use the software updater through the PC Suite then you will lose all apps installed but the user information will still be there. As in you deleted the Qik app from your phone but installed again and all the settings are still there. That is true for every application. I did this in a windows 7 64bit environment. Please don't mislead people.

p.s. You have to tell them to connect you with a level three tech. They have support for the n900 but the ordinary customer service representative might not have a clue. I even think they have dedicated staff to provide limited support or as much as they can provide for the phone.

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

Well, i live in europe and things are a bit different here (e.g. min. 2 year warranty). In the warranty conditions i've seen, there was a clause which voided it when software not provided by the manufacturer caused problems
Also, i doubt they keep tabs on what fw version the phone was running. Unless the problem is caused by the flashing itself, how will they know you reflashed?

Re: Can Nokia confirm that changing firmware on the N900 apparently invalidates warranty???
 

But on a plus side, this is from a Nokia employee who kindly went off to investigate exactly what the deal was with flasher / flashing the N900 by hand..

http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/....id=2898#M2898

That's pretty compelling.. I think in the case of Chicago and their policy, you didn't flash, you restored using Nokia's tools from the official Nokia restore website.. and site the link above, and the links in that thread (which were posted BY a Nokia employee instructing users how to flash)


If they say it is ok, then it should be ok.. plus you could argue there are no warnings on tablets-dev.. soo..