Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Why in the world would anybody want to disable red pill mode?

As a beginner barely getting used to linux I find red pill mode to be a very confortable way of installing .deb packages.

How can someone even start to imagine that installing apps via the terminal can be likeable??? It's a horrible nightmare that would require for me to start googleing and learning all kinds of crappy commands I do not know nothing of!

I say red pill should not only be kept, but the app manager should have the capability by default of installng .deb packages from the internal memory.
Either that or make the .debs installable by clicking when in the internal memory.

Thank you ! :mad:

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

What??? Oh noes, You would actually need to learn something? That's outragous!!!


:rolleyes:

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Wasn't the red pill mode supposed to be used by "users knowing what they are doing"?

Honestly, I expect that anyone using red pill mode is at least comfortable with using the "crappy command" to fix a possible mistake made with the red pill.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

A functionality for advanced users which can be replaced by another functionality for the same target group can be removed. If you don't know how to do it on the command-line, you shouldn't be doing it via the GUI.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

I think the point is exactly to discourage people from (among other things) installing random debs given how bad an idea that usually is compared with using the repositories like any sane person.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Oh noes why do you think linux fails to catch to the wide range of audience?

Because I use this in XP to make extra nice customisations to my sistem right afrer the install without having to click here and there and search for silly configs. <- this is handy


Writing a command line EACH and every time I want to install a .deb is annoying =/= handy

Ever wondered why your N900 has a nice UI instead of "~ $" when you start it up?
Or why you can acces the phone via an icon instead of "./phone"

I guess it's because people like using GUIs instead of commandlines.
I know it's quite a shock but anyone can LEARN a stupid commandline, but most people simply rather used a nice interface, install an app with two clicks instead of writing down a whole line of text - suppose you know why they say time is money? ;)

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Yeah and then let's remove terminal also and make it installable via app manager since only advanced users need it anyway.
Anyone can google the command to install each and every .deb their hearts desire.

I was just trying to underline that redpill is simply more confortable to use and if John Doe wants to install a .deb John Doe will install a .deb, red or bluepill or even by writing down a command he doesn't even understand - no matter what.

Red pill makes it easy to overcome an unnecesary timetaking step that anyone will eventually do, having no idea what the command they just wrote means.
I'm sorry no one sees this like I do...

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Uhm, well I don't really want to engage in a pointless debate here, but I'll answer just this once:
Because people are lazy, and for various other reasons - a lack of buttons not being one of them. (Ever seen KDE? Many, many buttons.)

You can't seriously tell me that you're faster clicking like 10 times to get from the home screen to the application manager, browse to the .deb location and go on installing it and then closing the app manager again, compared to typing "dpkg -i /path/to/file". That's a very popular misconception on command line use. The command line is fast. Very fast. For many tasks I can guarantee you I'm faster on the CLI then some clicky GUI. A GUI is mainly of use in CG, complex image manipulation and parallel multitasking of few apps/channels at a time and web browsing. Other then that, the CLI is always faster then a GUI approach, but, as you so whiningly pointed out, there's some learning involved.

To give this thread at least some amount of meaning, here's a barely related drawing:
http://www.fiveanddime.net/ss/text-e...ing-curves.jpg
and a rabbit for added cuteness:
http://www.elcivics.com/lop_rabbit_easter.jpg

Now why don't you just move along. If you're not happy, just write a script to do it and put a big red pill button on your desktop.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

So you do realize most people are too lazy to write that and rather choose widows where "dpkg -i /path/to/file" translates into "click, click" or "enter"
Commandline is not as easy to use for most people and while walking on the street it'd rather use an already enabled red pill mode and install a .deb using one finger, instead of having to take the keyboard out and type blindly using both my hands on-the-go.

So please "dpkg -i /path/to/file" in a crowded bus with no seats, while having nothing to hold on to.

And it's not like anyone needs to know anything more than "ctl-c" and "ctl-v" to enable the extras-devel repository, that is far more dangerous than the scarce .deb packages that work with maemo anyway.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Yes' id really like to know how to write that script, and even more how to manage the shortcuts from the main menu, from the "More..." menu and how to fix the icon on transmission that seems to "break" after every reboot.

But I guess the geekyness is weak within me and i've much to learn http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/26.gif

And thanks for this sample of famous linux knowitall-to-noob friendlyness ;)

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

In another thread I defended the menu icon for the terminal, because I don't like dumbed down devices. But letting newbies install random debs by clicking on them is too dangerous even in my opinion. Being forced to use dpkg, at least they need to think about what they're doing a bit more.

Maemo may soon be the number 1 Linux distro, so making life more difficult for trojans should be taken seriously. This isn't a case of dumbing down in my opinion, but obviously it can't be taken too far. I'd draw the line at not allowing people to add repos through the GUI. That becomes too stupid.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

shapeshifter, you've got "thanks" from me because of the bunny. :)

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Installing an app by clicking or picking it up from a menu seems natural to me.
This is the way things are done on almost every OS and the appmanager has plenty annoying popups about safety.

If we're to be concerned about safety, then let's make the easy installation of .debs possible with a commandline or a mini-app like rootsh.
But having more installation files and having to "dpkg" them all really makes no sense to me.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Having used WM since it was released and Android for over a year, installing from a deb file would seem natural, but apparently Maemo is more "volatile" in regards to the potential of messing the device up and then requiring time and additional posts here to correct. People will be less likely to help since people have been warned.

One of the hazards of having an open OS, but everything it seems in life has both good and bad points. The good for Maemo and the N900 outweigh the bad IMO.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

It does to most people who don't know any better. It is however, a crap approach and always has been, it's just hard to do any better with proprietary software (not impossible, just hard). Free OSes can, and therefore do, use the massively superior solution of central application repositories.

Installing individual debs is a non-obvious procedure because you shouldn't normally be doing it; we have a better way.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

im with bec here. gui all yhe way. some people in this forum think they know it all when theyve learned a bit about terminal

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Really; the point here isn't "use the terminal" it's "don't do that, it's daft".

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

The main reason I can see for forcing people to use the command line is that it will force them to learn about the OS etc. Giving users the ability to just spam software onto their machine at the click of the button leaves a much greater potential for disaster.

I like a GUI as much as the next guy, but command line is and always will be king.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

This is unfortunately why Red Pill needs to go... because it's too "easy" to use.

The only people who should be using Red Pill mode.. are people that are intimately familiar with the command line anyway.. because it is very likely you could cause problems with your precious "GUI" in Red Pill mode on your device that you will need to drop to a shell to fix anyway.

This is my understanding. Red Pill should never have been used as a "Oh, just use Red Pill to get that." Much like just telling someone to run and grab something from extras-devel.... because hey, it's harmless in there! Making a GUI for advanced things has always been an iffy development.. because then non-advanced people start clicking things they don't fully understand - and then expect the real advanced users to just "fix it" for them.

I agree with a poster that if someone wants a package, they'll get the package, but I think for most users being required to drop a shell to do something screams at the user "This is probably something I need to be careful with.." more so than a few clicks in a nifty gui and voila - all kinds of apps a user has no need to mess with..

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

I've always wondered how many people with "problematic" devices here, didn't bring some (if not all) of their problems onto themselves with apps such as this one, and since there is no GUI to fix them, they don't know how.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Where in the world are you finding all these .debs to install, anyway?

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

What are you asking for here? You suggest an easy command line tool as a solution, but don't find dpkg acceptable. Is it that you need dependency resolution? That's exactly why we have the repositories and apt-get, and avoid using manually downloaded debs.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

GA - I would imagine they are changing the setting via red pill which (and I am paraphrasing here the exact syntax) says show all packages.

When you turn that on you get basically every package. Dangerous in the extreme if you dont know what you are doing - or at the very least are prepared to flash.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

It is very easy do dpkg a .deb by just reding on a forum "to install this app put it on the SD and run blabla/blabla" - even a monkey can copy-paste knowing it will get a banana!
It is even easyer to enable the extras-devel with no red pill required to totally mess your device up.
And to top the cake with a cherry there's the nice installable rootsh that opens the way for ultimate bricking - all easy to install and use.

You people don't get that this is not your geeky home computer, this is a mobile device that people have to be able to use easy and on the go.
No one has enough distributive atention to play in terminal while walking on the street nor can they type while barely hanging around in a bus (yes I do use the bus :| )

I suggest a nice and elegant solution: Make a nice "app" just like "rootsh" to enable the red pill mode and put them both in the extras-devel.
Is it that much to ask?
People that don't use rootsh will most likely never install "pillsh" either.

There barely are any.
I found the debs for Open TTD and wanted to install them MANUALY just because I CAN, that was it.
I found it unconfortable and painful that to simply install an application I had to use the keyboard, but as that wasn't enough, things are going to be much nicer after completley removing red pill.

In my opinion, and I mean it in the most non-offensive way, the fact that you people think it's "better" to use terminal and make that judgement for all users out there makes you uber-lame geeks!
It's because of people like you I write this message from a windows OS instead of Linux, people like you guys made a great OS but keep dragging it down with their nerdyness.

People learn and adapt more easily with interactive menus and GUIs - I know many of you might consider a blinking cursor interactive, but most of us do not.

Every user+ eventualy gets to the commandline for a reason or another, but getting there ("this soon") for barely installing an application - it's just sad.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Yes, I do think that a lot of the time using the terminal is the better option. NO, I do not want GUI functions to be removed due to this.

You're completely missing the point yet again. A package manager is much more user friendly and safe than installing applications the Windows way, and discouraging standalone debs will protect 90% of the users from themselves. We posters are trying to point users to something BETTER, not something nerdier.

I'd be with you 100% if Nokia had disabled dpkg, but since it's there this is a total non-issue. I've already used it, but I know what I'm doing. You don't.


Edit: if you're trying to install potentially dangerous packages while walking on the street, you're already doing it wrong.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

My problem is... the "users" out there want to have all the cool toys of the uber-lame geeks and then expect us to fix it for them when it doesn't work right.

There's a reason why uber-lame geeks have some seriously cool toys or desktops that do some amazingly fancy stuff.

We break crap.. and then fix it ourselves. Then we break it again.

User's break crap... and then whine. WTF? :confused:

When it's ready for a "user" to be playing with it.. it'll be in the extras. If a "user" is feeling experimental, they can then use testing or devel. Installing .deb's that are not from any maemo repo.. just one randomly found on the internet that happened to be compiled for ARMEL.. is extremely dangerous. And the software that is not shown by default without red-pill mode in the repository are useless for an end-user. It will be added when it's needed.

And this is also what I refer to as a "windows" user mentality. Everyone just wants to point and click and install whatever nifty thing they found on a website and bam: virus', trojans, malicious software, or broken computers (tablets).

Is the terminal an end all solution? No.. I see people running around here that have just enough knowledge to realize they can run over to debian or ubuntu's repo's with 1000's of ARM/ARMEL software and just install it by, as you say, copy/paste monkey->banana!

Then it doesn't work.. and they want to know why? Why should this be any easier? It's obviously easy enough.. and still a problem.

So, yes. I'm an uber-lame geek, and I support not making it super-easy for your normal users to destroy their devices because they don't know any better.

The difference between Nokia/Apple or Linux/Windows is that you CAN... but that doesn't always mean that you should!

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Well keeping a "pillsh" into extras-devel should not affect security in any way or certanly "just as much" as rootsh does.

It's not that by disabling redpill, users will never install .debs, they surely will and they will crash their OS and maybe even brick the phone.
It's about keeping redpill for people who know what they are doing since this is a MOBILE device and typing folders and subfolders to reach a .deb with a 15char name is simply NOT POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE ON THE GO.

I am dead sure I'll brick my N900 sooner or later and maybe I'll whine for help, or maybe I'll find the solution my own. Messing with stuff around is simply part of my learning process that guarantees that the second time I'll brick it will be in a new and original way;)

For me the only thing that disabling redpill can do is postpone the time of bricking from "on my way home" to "honey I'm home, don't bother me I just found this great app"

I don't say we let the users super-easy brick their phones, I simply want a super-secret-hidden-enableable way of installing .debs as easy as I install apps from repositories for when I'm in a non-typing situation.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Unfortunately.. it never stays super-secret for long =-\.

Besides, why would you load a possibly harmful app when in a place where you might not be able to recover from it? I mean.. I personally *hate* it when my Android phones dies because the battery life is nothing short of horrendous... because to me the most important part of a phone: It's there in an emergency.

If you're on the go and you brick your device.. what do you do if you get hit by a truck :D?

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

:( Well I will get hit by a truck if I have to type concentrated...
But with a little red pill I'm sure to finish installing/bricking fast enough to notice the red light;)

All I want is a little installing convenience :rolleyes:

You'll see that in the following months you'll be swarmed with dpkg masters saying " http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/39.gif my device doesn't boot anymore, I tried turning it off and on again and I have even removed the battery, what should I do next?"

So you see, killing the red pill mode won't stop the brickers, it will simply replace an easy to use installing method with an easy to use installing method that involves typing...

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

You know about tab, right?

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Not entirely true. Yes, we'll still have those threads. However, a point-click easy solution more non-expert users are willing to follow than a terminal CLI command.

"Click here, type this, click that" is exactly what normal GUI users are used to seeing. They ignore: "STOP! I WILL KILL J00! DEATH TO YOUR FIRST BORN!" on the top of the page.. all they care about is the "Ok... I click here.. tap that.. type this.. " and thats what they read.

A lot of users see us go "Open a terminal and.." immediately their ADD kicks in and they go somewhere else :D.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

No, I actually have no idea about what you are talking..
Tab to do what? show commands, list folders... how does that even remotely get me past the annoyingly capitalised "MyDocs" ?
(disclaimer: if you think it's sarcasm, it's not, I actually have no clue)

Point made, but extras-devel is something normal users don't touch either. I keep it there but I keep it disabled (bit that's only because I reached wannabe status)...

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Tab allows auto-completion of both commands and folders.

dp<tab> -i /ho<tab>/u<tab>/M<tab>

for example to quickly access

/home/user/MyDocs

You only had to use shift once.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

LOL.
I never used the red pill, i'm sure i never will,and i'm not a geek or something. Do you see what happens during the installation with red pill? I dont think so. In terminal you can easy follow what is going on, and maby find the answer why something doesn't work/run/install before you have to search or ask somebody. Terminal is the best thing and i would say that everybody who uses it all the time, is waaaay faster by tab-typing :D then by using GUI.
Terminal is not geek, its linux ;)

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

The noob says thanks, but that still proves my point, using the keyboard is uncomfortable on-the-go.
Just throwing red pill out is not an option.
Hide it.Burry it.Turn it into an install.But keep it.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Wow I'm quite surprised by the response this is getting.

Yeah, why not make the N900 harder to use, its not like it isn't already the phone with the steepest learning curve available.

Improve the OS, make the phone easier to use (without removing functionality) and maybe we'll get a good community following and finally attract some developer attention. I'm quite unsatisfied with the phone so far. There's only so much a college student needs to use SSH and VNC, and jumping through hoops to get applications working gets old fast. The N900 has ridiculous amounts of potential (see the boring yet beautiful game Bounce, or the plethora of features the phone has) and it is so so so sad to see it go to waste.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Point Missed.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Ummm... I don't agree with that...
I know I may sound awkward but having repositories is the most confortable way I've ever experienced of having an app installed, it's like the device does everything for you, installing mantaining and updating. It's really as easy as pie and once you have your favourite apps all you have do do is click "yes, update all my apps" when updates are released.

~my first taught when I saw this was "Damn, computers are taking over the world, now how the F do I install an app manualy and where do I get .debs from?~
*it is not normal to go back to rubbing two sticks for fire when someone hands you a microwave, but that's just me!

I made this thread because some users, like, ahem, me for example have a sweetspot when dealing with OSes, it's something above the average user and far far away from guru.
I'm talking about the type of user that knows a thing or to and likes to play with fire; not because the OS puts him in that position, but because he wants to;)

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Yeah I don't disagree with that, I wasn't arguing against you. I'm pro-redpill mode.

Repos are great, I didn't say they weren't.

When things aren't there, lets say I develop an application and post the .deb on megaupload, redpill mode is great.

I think its ridiculous to remove it.

On a side note:
I also think winking smiley faces are ridiculous, they don't make you look cheeky "Hehe I'm telling him something he didn't know" (I either knew it the whole time or it was useless information) "I'm going to post a winking smiley face as a passive aggressive way of showing dominance"

Nope, doesn't get your point across, just makes you look annoying. This goes to everyone on the forum who uses emoticons not to express emotion but to be passive aggressive, stop it.

Re: Red pill mode, wtf?
 

Lazar,

You're completely missing the fact that red-pill mode, for or against, has absolutely nothing to do with the ease of use of the OS, the ease of package installation for newbies, or the friendliness of the OS.

Your original post has absolutely nothing to do with Bec's request in this thread. I think you need a bit of a firmer grasp of what red-pill mode actually is before you decide whether it should be kept or not.

There seems to be some confusion regarding red-pill mode.... removing red-pill mode in no way removes any functionality from the device. None. Zip. Zilch.