Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

The point of the Maemo community, indeed any computing community, is to make software and hardware better. The best way of doing that is to say what works, what doesn't, and suggesting how problems could be fixed. If you do all of these things simultaneously, then that's constructive criticism.

Certain people on this forum are completely misusing that term, posting hyperbole after hyperbole, missing out the part about "what works", focusing on "what doesn't", failing to suggest any way for things to be fixed, and then when someone says they're wrong, they reply that they're just giving "constructive criticism". They're hiding behind that term and giving it a bad name.

Without mentioning any particular threads or users, if people start discussions with topics like "This device sucks!" or "This community sucks!", or say that there's no hope for a device or platform, or say that a particular manufacturer makes nothing but garbage, or post photos of a damaged device without saying how it got damaged... that's not constructive criticism. Those are just attacks, which encourage counter-attacks, which ends up in a depressing cycle of pointless and stupid fanboy/fangirl bickering.

None of us are buying these devices to bicker over, we're buying them to have fun and do useful stuff with. Couldn't we just focus on making all platforms and all devices as useful and as fun as possible, without the bitterness? Like I said in another thread you don't really get this kind of bitterness in communities which discuss other topics. When did you last see a cookery community erupt in a flamewar over which brand of frozen pastry is best?

The best kind of constructive criticism is not positive or negative but factual: a road map explaining the current situation, explaining where we need to get to, and then detailing the route that would get us from the first place to the other. It doesn't really care that much over "who wins", all it cares about is making everything better.

Too many people on here are treating this as an opportunity for us vs them sniping.

It's not helping to build any sense of community if people feel they have to be on one side or another.

It's also not going to help any developers or manufacturers improve their product if criticism says there's no hope of improvements.

This is particularly bad in the open source community when supporters of different OSS start bickering. The only people who benefit from that are supporters of closed source.

For example open source fans should be happy to see Maemo and Android receiving ever-increasing amounts of backing from manufacturers, and simultaneously Symbian going open source. This combination of platforms means that for the first time in history we may see a majority of computing devices running on open source... isn't that a good thing we should be happy about?

Couldn't we have fun instead of having arguments?

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Well said krisse... but I hope you're not expecting reason from any sociopaths. ;)

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

...and I should add I've been guilty of this too and really regret joining in with it. Life is too short... :)


They'll probably use this thread as yet another opportunity to start up another flamewar. ("Well of course there's bitterness here, Maemo Talk sucks man! You should be posting on community XYZ!") ;)

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Krisse, I think you're right in every respect but one. I have seen far, far worse flame wars errupt over the placing of a nacelle, which deck crew quarters are on and most especially which fictional character is in love with which other fictional character in sci-fi forums.

The problem here is that it matters. If people post unrestrained negativity it can affect product and platform development. There's a lot of money riding on the Maemo venture, and that means that people being destructive for fun (as some, strangely do on the internet) are potentially doing damage.

I think it's great credit to the community that these people are allowed to stay. In the sci-fi forums just posting "Kirk sucks!" is the very definition of trolling and more than a few posts will get you banned. I doubt you'd last even that long if you posted that sort of negativity in a forum run for a closed-source platform. But we allow these people to stay.

I'm not honestly sure with some people if they are genuinely negative about the device or they just enjoy internet-squabbling and winding people up. Some of them don't seem to even own a maemo device.

I have stayed out of the android threads: I am still cross with BBC news for making a huge fuss over the new google phone when even their geek division has never mentioned Maemo. But I've no doubt it is more of what I've seen before in attitudes to other platform users.

I guess I have an advantage as a multi-faith worker. I long ago learned that what is right for me is not right for everyone and that if I listen to others whose choices and needs are different from mine I might learn something. The sad reality is most people need to evangelise their position whether in religion or device choice. Some do it in pleasant, friendly and harmless ways. Others use violence. Short of excluding them there's not much we can do :(

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

I am sooo nominating you for the next council. :D

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Kathy, yes, sci-fi does seem to be on a par with gadgets as a magnet for people who take these things too seriously. :)

I should stress that I'm not just talking about Maemo-bashers, but the entire attitude of thinking that we have to take sides. Practically every gadget I've ever used has had at least something that other gadgets can learn from, but "haters" want us to completely disown whatever it is they hate.

If we start dismissing a device purely to make our own favourite look good, we're going to miss out on potential improvements. Really we should look at device variety as a good thing because it provides a constant flow of new ideas. And if you look at what professionals say in interviews, it's pretty much the same thing: they welcome newcomers in a market because it provides everyone with a new perspective on how to do things.

It's only the fans, marketers and media that turn this into something bitter, but the actual developers and engineers just want to do the best they can. If we're serious about the community helping to create a better platform, then we need to be more like the engineers/developers and less like the fans/marketers.

The other thing is, different people have different needs, tastes and budgets. There is never ever going to be a single device that suits everyone. Some people on here fail to recognise this diversity of needs.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Comments about how well other communities get together are just plain wrong; I was present at a war to the death between two rival San Diego amateur astronomy groups, and why there weren't mass arrests is beyond me.

My personal bitterness towards this site is that I think it pretends to be freer than it is; it all started when ITT was liberated with a fake vote. Now the outcomes of most questions are essentially rigged. However, I'm not always bitter and rarely start 'this device sucks' threads.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

as we talk about constructive criticism, I've received a private message from our friend "mysticrokks", entitled "******" with the following content: "you are one sad *****

get a life "

I think that this is a good example what not constructive criticism is.

Have a nice day!

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

You know, if you swapped 'platform/device in that post for religion/philosophy/world-view, you could post it on any liberal theology forum. :)

The problem is that many people never got beyond "This is right for me so you must be wrong" to find "This is right for me - what's right for you?"

I wonder how much of that is because some people have come to believe that that sort of language and content is the norm for internet communication. I have certainly met people who were perfectly pleasant in real life who mutated into monosyllabic flamers in front of their screens. The anonymity of the net allows people to be rude in ways they never would to one's face. It is, sadly, one of the down-sides of this form of communication.

The best advice is to completely ignore it: there's not much point in engaging that sort of content. And don't let it get you down - anyone who has to resort to that sort of stuff has a poor command of vocabulary. (I used to know someone who could write flames in language even I had to look up ;) )

One of the ways Maemo.org can reduce it is by encouraging the Meet-ups. People are much less rude once they've met you.

(Small warning - I'm hatching a plan for a UK users meet - that's users, not devs, just for a day out togther) ((Edit - I don't mean devs won't be welcome just that the plan is to focus on what n900 can do, not how to develop for it. Possibly some sort of treasure hunt event in the spring))

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Yes, philosophical topics are another magnet for these attitudes. Oh dear... :(


I've noticed that in certain people when they get behind the wheel of their car. :)


Yes, I would definitely agree with this. :)

No matter what the hobby or interest, ties between members are strengthened by meet-ups. Is there any kind of Maemo forum meet-up planned? Would Nokia or anyone else perhaps sponsor such an event?

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Well, as I say I personally am considering an ad hoc meet-up somewhere around the M4 corridor in the UK, aimed at users (t.m.o) rather than devs. I was going to wait a few weeks and then canvas response. I have one or two people who've already expressed interest.

Not sure whether Nokia would want to sponsor gatherings of users - it's more about people with a similar hobby getting together than actual development. Though I think such events would make a positive impact on the forums.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Perhaps Maemo might be a special case though, especially if these are users that are active in the Maemo community? :)

I know they used to have free invitation-only gatherings for Symbian S60 users...

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

I suuure could use more feedback/input on the outreach programs I'm developing. Note: it won't just be about developers, although they are the pilot target. And anyone on LInkedIn needs to join maemo daemons group!

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Well, today I noticed the same behaviour on RAI (the italian state tv): they were waxing lyrical on Google's phone and mentioned neither Maemo nor the N900 nor Nokia.

Now, if I were the Beeb I wouldn't be flattered by such a comparison ;)

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

The problem is that the less life a person has, the more strongly he/she feels about things that essentially are the only good things in their lives or give them any meaning at all. In this case they feel strongly about Maemo, in another forum it may be about a fictional character in a science fiction novel. Most are unaware how unreasonable their behaviour is.

People saying that the iPhone is useless, that Android is garbage, that the Nexus One sucks terribly, only because it doesn't have a physical keyboard. Think about it, are those opinions reasonable? No, no they're not, but they are being repeated every single day around here.

When you couple this with infantile, immature behaviour, we have a recipe for disaster.

I think many people here, including the long-timers, have been caught unprepared by the recent influx of newcomers. The fault lies somewhere in-between. Newcomers feel strongly about platforms they're coming from and the people who were here forever have never been challenged in this way, they also feel strongly about their home platform. This results in pointless 200+ post threads, where everyone just keeps their ground and doesn't know how to discuss things in an adult manner, resorting to name calling, at the very least.

For those who haven't noticed, this is a very thinly veiled jab at both sides of this "conflict".

But it's an inherent problem of every community as it grows larger, it's nothing specific to Maemo.org. The larger the community becomes, the more statistical probability of it containing *****s, anti-social people and trolls. It's unavoidable. People who have been here forever have grown accustomed to the nice, cozy, small community, they hate this change, they don't want the community to fall apart. So they react emotionally and provoke anti-social discussions, sometimes under the guise of "fun" ("no, don't ban him, he's funny"), which is destructive.

The solution to this problem is either:

1) don't react (people crave attention), don't ban (people crave attention and martyr status), ignore threads with people you don't like and go about your day. The problem won't go away, as the community will grow and more people will come, some will go, but we'll see arguments (we do now actually) between newcomers, not only new vs. old. But never give anyone any undeserved attention.

2) Heavily moderate the forum and ban people. This requires resources we probably don't have and is mostly unworkable in the long run.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Agreed - I'm sure I'm thinking of the same particular subject as you ;)

I'm not too sure of that - I run a forum for a small local group of role-players. We almost all meet up at least once a week and are friendly... yet I've seen some vicious flame wars erupt on there. Different people behave differently in different circumstances.
Don't get me wrong, a meet-up is good and will diffuse some personality clashes but unfortunately it is no guaranteed silver bullet.

Sounds good - M4 area is a couple of hundred miles too far south for me :( but I'll be there in spirit! :)

I'm also annoyed at the Beeb's Google worship and ignoring the one device that is trying something different. There again, I'm happy that they're doing something different from their usual Apple or MS adverts ..err.. tech stories.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Well it seems like they cover a particular group of (mostly American) companies as if they're gods, regardless of what the true picture might be.

I remember when there was a problem with the Blackberry network, they were covering that like it was some kind of major international crisis.

All I can think of is that they are writing about devices they use a lot, and assuming that everyone else uses them a lot.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

I disagree those are the only options.

For one, I still have yet to see that ignoring can actually work. It never did in forums I used to frequent. People who crave attention will up the ante until they get it one way or another. To sociopaths, negative attention is better than positive attention because it's free and easy to obtain in large quantities.

What I have seen work is not heavy moderation but highly selective moderation. Target the root cause troublemakers, who are usually low in number but attract large followers when they are allowed to persist. Ban them, and when they create another account, ban them again. Eventually they will find a forum where there is no moderation.

They're like locusts, even in small numbers. They invade, disrupt, and leave chaos in their wake. Soft moderation is useless when it comes to these types.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

This is the so-call "Aliens" take off and nuke the site from space approach, and it is highly effective.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

The thing that bothers me is when someone joins a forum and expresses nothing but contempt for the topic of that forum. Why do they join?

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Have also seen some threads where a single positive individual is attacked by a Pack of Negatives. Ignoring these Packs makes it worse for the positive and is like watching a crime on the street and doing nothing about it.:mad:

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Well said. If a community can't (or is unwilling) to assist non-trolls, they will often leave which lowers the s/n ratio further.

Dealing with them has to be done on an almost individual basis - some just get louder the more they are ignored, whereas others see the ban > re-register cycle as a game or an excuse to abuse the mods and admins of a forum.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

You're trying to reason with sociopaths again. ;)

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

I almost never use ignore lists on forums. Succesfull trolls are allways good attention whores. Their stuff will get quoted in so many posts that you end up reading whatever they write anyway. Occasional posts from young padawan trolls are easy to ignore without any list.

I agree with Texrat. Selective and very firm moderation is the key.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

This forum used to be called internettablettalk. Maybe it should now be called nokiafanbois.com.

Here is some constructive criticism for you: Nokia vs. Apple lawsuit is not related to Maemo. A thread about it has no place in this forum.

Here's another: a phone that can't have different ring tone per caller is not a good phone. No way to spin around that.

Even more: not being able to dial some numbers is a really really really bad bug for a phone. This is a bug that can and should be fixed in a day. Saying that the fix is delayed for months because Nokia want to run the fix through their great and long QA process sounds vacuous.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

In terms of those who do try to be constructive, but could improve, being specific is helpful.
from my own experience with witter, those who have given very specific requirements, and information about how I could look to meet them, have found their requests met. Others who have simply said 'not as good as gravity' will find I have no idea what gravity is like, so don't really know how to respond.

Also I like the point about suggesting how to solve the problem, when talking about an app, suggesting ways to fix/improve it with specific information is good. And for those of us that are not actually programming gods with time to burn learning everything, the more directly we can be pointed at documentation to help us solve problems the better.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

This is a good idea, but requires good judgement from the moderators. I'm not even aware if we have those, as I wasn't really interested, but do they actually have the power to ban someone or can they just move threads to appropriate categories and nothing else?

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Starting by calling the community fanbois is hardly the best way for constrcutive criticism.


Off-topic for this thread, but since I'm propably the most active poster in that thread I'll respond.

I disagree that Nokia vs. Apple lawsuit doesn't have anything to do with this forum. For example, both Maemo and N900 are mentioned is Apple's countersue paper. Apple also claims that N900 infringes at least one of it's patents. Thus the lawsuit could have very direct effect on this community. It can also effect Nokia's business seriously. As such I think it relates to this community, based on OS mainly developed and funded by Nokia and running (mainly, excluding various hacks) on Nokia hardware.

Having said that, "General" as the the main sub-forum might not be the place for it.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

I'm sure this is a worthy contribution to this thread. It's not in any way inflammatory.

Here's some food for thought: do you think everyone thinks like you? Because personally I almost never change the default ring tone, so I don't care about this feature. Therefore I don't think it's a bad phone. I also have no use for the numbers that cannot be called. Therefore I don't think it's a bad phone. For me.

For you those two things probably ruin your day, but it's only you.

Also, bugs cannot and will not be fixed in a day (as in, delivered to customers). If you think they can be, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

And a thread about Nokia vs. Apple in a forum about Nokia devices is quite reasonably placed. Don't read it if you don't like it.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

This post is a perfect example of the problem. I'm still wondering what people who cast about juvenile epithets like "nokiafanbois" expect from the maemo.org forum.

Does it need to be said this is not about iPhone or Android?

Yet, ironically, those who complain about the default bias here and the alleged inappropriate nature of certain topics love to invoke other products. I see no problem with such comparisons per se but I don't see hypocrisy as a virtue.

And FYI, lawsuits that can affect the Maemo devices are directly relevant.

General is the perfect section for it.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Super Moderators can ban. And there is always the admin, Reggie... although he seems to be very busy elsewhere...

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Oh I agree, the N900 is a poor phone. If I was looking for a phone I would not get the N900. But it is a good internet tablet (except for the smaller screen and lack of SD slot), especially once easy debian gets to full steam. :D

There is another unpopular option. Create a seperate private forum that requires invites to get in. That way you at least have one forum where you don't have to deal with trolling. And for those who would just disguise themselves as non-trolling posters and then switch to trolling once they are invited they just get kicked out of that forum after a vote.

By seperate forum I don't mean another site but a board or forum on this site inside talk.maemo.org. People would get invited to join from the regular talk.maemo.org. We could even make it so everyone has read access but only those invited have write access.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Then I advise the Super Moderators, whoever they are, to start banning. You will see initial backlash, martyrs blogging about how they got banned for nothing, but it just might work to have a peaceful conversation at tmo.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Ah well, I've always thought along the lines of ....you can't really get angry at an *** for braying...it is the ***'s nature. And, I've said it before, I'll say it again; occasionally, there is some small nugget of truth buried deep in all the bull*^%$ that gets spewed. I don't really expect a majority of users to be able to criticize constructively, but usually, somewhere in their criticism, there actually is something that could use some work. It just a lot of dirty work sifting through all of that chaff, I hope Nokia has somebody good on it.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Apple counter suit will have no effect on the N900. Worst case scenario - Nokia has to pay Apple a few cents per N900 as a patent license fee, Like they probably pay a hundred other companies.

About the second argument, the success of the N97 will also have a great effect on Nokia's business, that does not make this forum the correct place for discussing when the next N97 firmware is released and what it will include.

This forum is for discussing of Maemo, not for adoring Nokia.

If "what is your wow moment" thread has a place on this forum, then so does "what is your 'wow, I can't believe people pay 600 Euro for this crap' moment".

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Criticism of Nokia devices (constructuve or otherwise) in a forum about Maemo is very reasonably placed. Don't read it if you don't like it.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Nonconstructive criticism has no place anywhere. It's called whining. Nobody, in any community, likes dealing with babies.

I'm sure a good portion of us have some of our own of those to deal with, we don't care to have to come here and handle it too.

If you don't like a device, fine. Say you don't like, and move on, or better yet: don't come here. There is absolutely no purpose to stick around forums specifically for said device just to try and force opinions onto everyone else that their device sucks. Period.

None of what I've said is Nokia or Maemo specific... this behavior is not acceptable in any community. It's unhelpful, pointless, and flat out annoying.

If, however, you like the device - or see hope for it's future. That's different, but posts criticizing something should also explain this fact, and input the good that you see, or hope to see. This is a community about and for maemo.. if you don't like maemo then you are not reasonably placed.. let alone the thread. (that's a generic "you", not a target to Matan).

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Ahh, a selective answer that's missing the point anyway.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Wrong.

Only the constructive criticism has any place or value here. The rest is noise.

Don't post it if it's pointless.

Re: Constructive Criticism: what is is and what it ain't...
 

Why are you so sure?

What if Apple retaliates Nokia's ITC case by seeking injuction on sales of Nokia products? We allready saw similar thing happen in Nokia vs. Qualcomm. Doesn't matter if they get it or not. Even the possibility might stop carriers and consumers from investing on Maemo products.

What if Nokia drops or delays release of some features from Maemo due to the courtcase? Or decides to delay release of some Maemo hardware until there's a ruling on affected patents?

Apple vs. Nokia is related to all Nokia products, including Maemo, and discussing it and it's possible effects is on-topic in this forum.


Yes, but courtcase that might effect Nokia ability or willingness to develop and sell Maemo products is within the scope of this forum.


EDIT: That's the last post about the matter I make in this thread. We can discuss it further in "Apple vs Nokia" thread. This one is about the community and communication within it. Sorry for adding noise with couple of off-topic posts.