The passive generation?
 

I'm doing a python project at uni, and was talking to one of my lecters about how hardly anyone on my course can code. (nor can they type, but don't get me started on that!)

I'm 29, and study Physics (accidently took some years out)..

I learned back on a BBC micro, and kinda went from there, via pascal, qbasic, perl, vb, java, c# and everything else..

When I was at school (92-99) nearly everyone doing maths/physics could program to one extent or the other.

He said when he was at uni, everyone could do electronics, and lecturers wondered why no one could fix cars and bikes any more..

So It leaves me wondering what everyone's up to now? or is this the generation of consumption and facebook?

Also as a side note.. how did and of you guys/gals start off programming?

Re: The passive generation?
 

My father taught me the basics of code using DOS with BASIC when I was 10. I coded a small "guess the number" game and various other tidbits that I found amused me.

Then came websites/HTML/CSS that every kid now has but back before the damn WYSIWYG editors that produce the most god-awful code on the internets you see now. I learned HTML in Notepad.

Then IRC was a huge thing with mIRC in my teen era... so I figured out coding in that very basic scripting interface to make some fairly comprehensive "bots". Also during this time MUD's were big so I found and download a C/C++ MUD server and ran it on a machine nobody used in our house. (my dad had 8 computers networked in our basement back in the late 80's before "household computing" really took on.)

This sparked me to learn C/C++ so I could modify the source code to make it do what I wanted. Then on linux I did various C++/Qt apps and then switched to FLTK because of the lightweight libraries and that the clients didn't need to download any libraries to their computer. It was all in the binary.

And it continued... I would decide I want to learn a language, come up with a program to do, and then code that program in whatever language I had picked. Ruby and Perl I learned regressing to my teen times by coding a multi-threaded channel control/trivia/game/flood/etc bot for an IRC network I run. I wrote the same bot in both languages. Then I use perl for Sysadmin stuff as well.. ruby is just fun.

Now I decided I wanted to learn python - So I did pyPianobar for the N900 :D.

I've never had any official training ... this is all just simply fun for me. Nothing is more exciting than to be sitting in front of my computer creating something from nothing :D.

Re: The passive generation?
 

:eek:Programming? I'm in the wrong forum I was outside today replacing the carbuerator on my Power King tractor

Re: The passive generation?
 

My Kids spend all their spare time on on World of Warcraft. This sounds bad, but when I looked at what else they are doing it surprised me, in terms of actual activities. There is not enough time in the day. I have never heard them say they are bored.

The real truth of it is they have so much choice open to them these days that hacking a bit code or digging into how the computer works is not half as interesting as a good Frag or whatever its called on WOW these days.

Oh and the schools don't seem that interested to teach it to them in an interesting way.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Well I started with pascal at the age of eight or something. Can't really remember that much, but I think my cousin taught be some C at the time as well. Later on I learned Java but never developed anything big. For a few years I've been doing Cobol for a living and started looking at greener pastures with Python and C++.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and did some MIPS at a course in uni some time ago. Loved it.

Well if you're on a technical uni there are a lot of people who actually know how to code. No worry about that.

Re: The passive generation?
 

for physics apparently it's all about CUDA now tho..

Re: The passive generation?
 

The very first bits of code I wrote were in BASIC, on a teletype-style terminal when I had just turned 17 at high school. This thing had a roll of paper instead of a screen and a keyboard to type stuff on. Offline storage consisted of a device which would punch your lines of code onto a roughly 1 inch (2.5cms) wide paper tape which could then be rolled up and kept safe.

To use the terminal, you had to take the special telephone that sat next to it in the cupboard, place the handset into the acoustic coupler at the side of the keyboard and press the button on the phone which caused it to connect to the mainframe at the city university some 5 miles away.

After learning more basic, plenty of COBOL and a tiny bit of 6502 assembler at college, I bought myself a 16k Sinclair Spectrum and taught myself Z80 assembler. Over the next few years, I owned a Sinclair QL, some old thing with an 8-inch floppy drive that ran CP/M, an Amstrad PPC512 luggable and various other bits and pieces of kit.

My day job between 1992 and late 2000 involved writing reservations software for the tour operator/travel market, which gave me an opportunity to learn a bit of C for interfacing to Galileo, Viewdata and Unicorn systems. I went to work for an ISP in early 2001 and these days I do most of my coding in Python, but the stuff that I learned in the early days has stood me in good stead none the less.

I think mikec hit the nail on the head - back in my younger days, computers didn't do very much 'out of the box' and there wasn't much commercial software available. If you wanted to find out what your new toy was capable of, you had no choice but to roll your sleeves up and write the code yourself.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Interesting thread!

Well, I started coding ActionScript for Flash years ago (Flash 5).
Then got tired of all that Flash and started to dislike it. So I started to code PHP and SQL.
Somewhat around 2001/2002 (when Gennto RC4 was released) I started to hack around with BASH. Writing little BASH based tools. Most known: OTRtool (http://wiki.onlinetvrecorder.com/ind...nux#OTRtool.sh). And many other mostly for my personal use.

Used a lot of BASH for the daily work (Molecular Modeling).
http://olausson.de/scriptarchive

Soon bash reached it's limit and I searched for an alternate programing language with good text processing support. Well Perl was to cryptic, so I ended up with Python and fell in love with it from the first Shebang.

Until some weeks ago I never coded GUI's for my tools (never had any use for a GUI cause most scripts were run on Linux Clusters)

But then the N900 came out and here we go, my first GUI-Tool for my phone (By the way, any help appreciated, especially integrating the tool into the address book)!
www2sms
http://olausson.de/maemo


I should mention, I am a biochemist, and well, I dare to say the only one - not 100% sure about that - from my semester who can seriously code (not perfect and 100% clean, but I archive want I want) ;-)

I love it when people can benefit from my code and thats why I am so much into the OpenSource community.

Cheers
Bjoern

Re: The passive generation?
 

I started programming BASIC at around 20 (1981) I think, after buying a Timex Sinclair 1000 and teaching myself from examples. Went on to Commodore 64, then C128, then hopped onto a school mainframe for COBOL, then a Tektronics Minicomputer to use BASIC for very primitive CAD work. The class was superseded the next semester by PCs running AutoCAD, so I saw the future and retook it-- which led to LISP, and Pascal, and DOS batch files, and Unix shell scripts, etc etc etc.

Fun stuff. :D

But yeah, in general I see a lack of motivation and curiosity in the youth around here. They want to consume, not to create. It's sadly true of my oldest son, stepson and their cousins/friends.

My youngest (almost 15) is the exception. he's scripting in garry's Mod and getting very good at it. He's also got the right mentality for professional programmer... which is good and bad. ;)

Re: The passive generation?
 

Children, children, children. If you want to learn programming start by understanding how computers compute. I learned the basics on an IBM402 Accounting Machine. It didn't need no stinking OS - you told the data where to go with a plug board and patch cables. Then I graduated to assembler language on an IBM1401. You had to page program segments in and out of memory because there was only 1KB to work with.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Feh. In my day we stacked mud bricks into arrays. A meltdown meant someone hadn't fired that damn things thoroughly.

Re: The passive generation?
 

I am constantly told by people that I am lucky I know how to code etc, as if it was an innate ability I was born with. The next question is almost always, so how do I learn to code? My response is always the same. Get an IDE, get an SDK, get and idea - read a tonne of examples and go to it. Most people however don't REALLY want to code. REALLY wanting to code means hours and hours of frustration debugging code (I always say - writing code is easy, debugging code is hard). I liken debugging to writing the same word over and over and over, until you finally get it right - then get to write two words over and over. Then when you get a full page of words you discover you missed a comma at the start and have to write it again :)

The lack of willingness to do this I can only imagine stems from the same "I want everything on a silver platter handed to me" syndrome that the new generation seems to have. if it isnt instantaneous, its not worth doing, and that just doesn't lend itself to coding

Oh and Text - speaking as someone who made mud bricks for one summer, Even I wouldnt have the temperament for that kind of coding :)

Re: The passive generation?
 

Ah, but hiow many of you guys make your own clothes? huh?

Re: The passive generation?
 

not yet! but im thinking to start doing some!

i'm getting too old. i used to code pascal about 10-15 years ago. late 90's i was doing that for living but it wasn't my "thing" so i changed my goal to computer hardware and started to fix ppl's computers for money in same company and now... i cant even remember about nothing about pascal. damn!

it's not too late to start coding again but where i could get that time?? kids, family, work! if anyone could hardcode life to have couple extra hours in a day i would be grateful :D

Re: The passive generation?
 

My first programming was at age 13 in BASIC on a C 64. I started this stuff because as a kid I always wanted to write my own games. After having spend several years coding in BASIC, C, Pascal, Assembler, Perl, Tcl, and C++, it was only logical for me to study computer science. Did so and am now holding a master's degree (German diploma) in computer science. Python as a language put even more fun into coding, and Maemo is a great platform for coding.
Currently I don't do programming for a profession (besides shell and Perl scripting), as I'm doing Unix/Linux consulting at a big ISP right now. So I can enjoy coding opensource in my pastime.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Technically it's the same as programming isn't it?
Knitting and sewing has to have a syntax, too, so that you don't get a messy result with buggy holes. ;)

Re: The passive generation?
 

I once sewed a button :cool:

But back to the topic, I think I started programming somewhere around the age of 14. I had read some C64 programming books before that but didn't really do anything serious.

I started with Pascal and transitioned to C from that. C++ came later and C# after that, and I've used both of those in work too.

Programming is a great hobby but not that great of a job.

Re: The passive generation?
 

I find it interesting none the less. My lecturers at university know how to program decently, yet they know absolutely nothing about how windows operates or any usability of it.

In high school I had a teacher and he had a whole history of IT background yet when it came to teaching year 10 students the basics of computer programs such as flash he was useless.

Now you get people who can use windows extensively and not program. Cha cha cha.

Re: The passive generation?
 

I think the point I was trying to make was that we have a huge range of skills, knowledge and experience. Branding people as "passive" - or "stupid" for that matter - because they don't have a skill or knowledge base you do is unhelpful. They have other skills, know other things.

Of course, one might put value judgements on which things are 'worth' knowing or being able to do (personally I'd consider a working knowledge of Shakespeare as superior to a knowledge of the current state of Brad and Angelina's marriage, for example) but there is almost always a situation where your knowledge is useless while the other person's is not.

Re: The passive generation?
 

hi together i also think that the thread title isnt right couse computer nerds like us where passive in there childhood and youth while the other kids played football (i mean soccer sry iam from germany and we play fußball;).

Sure its fine to have these skills in our digital world. I allways say that its good to have one eye while the others are blind..

So my first "computer" was a kc87 *iam born in gdr* after the wall was down i was haveing a 128d comodore. But to take a real look at Programming (beside basic) i was need a lot more Time. This came with my interest for the Internet. From HTML to PHP a little Java, Python and so one. When i was at the University i learnd a lot about Databases too.

After my Master and some Jobs i work today as Admin in another University. I guess this is the Livecycle of a Computer Nerd *lol*

Re: The passive generation?
 

I totally agree and I've never considered programming a skill that should be necessary for anyone but programmers. That attitude is a big problem for the OSS community.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Well, don't try to talk things neat. I know many examples around me, reaching from young to my age (29) who just live. Barely a hobby, obligation and most of all the lack of responsibility an credibility (which bugs me most).
So today it's all about hanging around with others (what I did/do as well), doing party (what I did/do as well) and then complain about the lack of spare time which they could spend to do something productive (what I don't/didn't) e.g. contribute to some sort of community.
Well, okay, in some way they contribute to a community... FaceBook, StudiVZ, ${NameThem} but is that productive? Not in my eyes...

Don't get me wrong, my oppinion is based on MY observations, but I guess if you average over all the kids/adolescents, you might end up with a similar conclusion.

Yeah, well, but if we have a lack of knowledge, but know what all my friends did RIGHT NOW (thanks to twitter, SMS ${NameIt}) what knowledge can I contribute? To gain knowledge in something you have to be interested in something (in most cases), and if there is a lack of interest there is a lack of knowledge.

Take many questions in this forum. This one was the last which came across:
"Can you guide me step by step to replace a file on the CMD?"

I guess you read enough similar.

Everyone started... but some just are not willing to learn and put some brain into it. Thy just want it. NOW and as easy to digest as possible.

And just one more story I experience yesterday:
A girl was scratching a barely noticeable pimple on her arm. I looked seriously at here and said: Oh my good, this looks like Leprosy (Lebra, Hansen's disease). She looked at me and asked "Whats that?" And I thought this would be a very plain joke... apparently not... All I could answer: "Look it up on Wikipedia". I should mention that this girl was 22 years old and is studying at a university. (This in particular made my response so extensive)

Cheers
Bjoern

Re: The passive generation?
 

I don't know if the current generation is more intellectually lazy than previous generations. After all, how many of us have read through a complete list of "great books" like the 60-volume Great Books of the Western World? We may have read more of them than the youngsters but who is to say the one's we missed are no longer important or the one's we read are still important or the differing books our children read are not important?

I think the problem is that the skills needed in each generation are different. When I grew up, search meant physically flipping through a card catalog or scanning printed indices. Cut and paste was done through cutting and pasting and was only of importance in publishing. Few people other than secretaries knew how to type. Now, online search, cut and pasted mashups, and keyboarding are considered basic skills.

As far as programming, it's really only of use to programmers. However, at its core, it is based on two things that I feel everyone should study - Boolean algebra and set theory. My secondary education touched on the second and I didn't even hear of the first until I went to college. Now they are part of my sons' core middle school math curriculum.

Re: The passive generation?
 

I graduated high school in 1979. I watched as my younger brothers received an increasingly inferior education as zero tolerance, no-pass-no-play, "don't reward high achievers and make the others feel bad" and other well-intended meddling tweaks diminished the actual education. Far less was expected of my youngest brother than was of me. I saw it in his homework, his projects, his grades, and his critical & abstract thinking skills. Fortunately college got him back on track.

Now my kids are even worse off. They think I'm crazy for demanding more of them than their test-oriented teachers do.

I was taught to learn. My kids are taught to game tests. I got zeroes for missing work. I now see teacher's strike it off a grade report with no penalty.

Caring parents these days find themselves supplementing school work. It isn't easy... especially when the kids fight back ("no other parents expect this!!!"). Yes, this generation really is being done wrong, and will be at a disadvantage... at least, kids in the US.

Re: The passive generation?
 

I'm not a parent, but I see similar things on this side of the pond too .. it's depressing :(

Re: The passive generation?
 

Agreed. In the US we have been shooting for the lowest common denominator for far too long. I'd rather kids be challenged, as I was.

My kids think the old excitement over moon launches and first shuttle landing was silly. That bothers me. They are way too cynical and in too large a comfort zone.

Re: The passive generation?
 

<on topic>
Started programming on my ZX81 (TS1000 to you Tex) in 1981 at the tender age of 13, moved on up in the BASIC ranks, then to Uni to do Maths and switched to Compsci cos I could do it better - Pascal, C, etc etc. <insert language here> Then reverted to Hypercard for some neato UI concepts, as well as Revolution. <aside> porting such an environment to Maemo would be the business... <\aside>
But I'm a researcher, so don't code too much beyond proofs of concept which can be safely ignored when they don't work. So I still enjoy it.
<\on topic>

Education - I dunno, it's difficult to say what's best because there is no one way to learn. Some people do it better than others one way, and so on. To make it more interesting for my kids, one of whom started school this year, we're sending them to a french school. Watching the brain bend around a new language at that age is an education in itself. The resultant education system, at least here, seems better suited for understanding why rather than how at the outset. I think that's fine because the how is much easier to achieve when the why is in place. But that's my style of learning (see above).

We're taking them to Florida to see a shuttle takeoff in July though - and man are they excited. No, I refuse to take them to Disney-anything. But they understand *why* the shuttle is such a big deal.

Kathy, in fact I can make my own clothes, but lack a sewing machine so must do it by hand. Too slow, so I go to the shop. I can cook too. That is more like programming. But I make a kick-*** Saag Paneer... (actually, anything veggie and Indian and hot...)

Re: The passive generation?
 

Interesting thread... another perspective to add perhaps.

I don't code applications. I can code the mess out of things within a browser environment using CSS and HTML (and some shreds of JS) to pretty much build or prototype anything. My graphic abilities range from still loving hand drawings with charcoal and colored pencils (still life flora and hands usually) to photo manipulation for various items in any graphic editor (PS, Gimp, Illustrator, Flash, Inkscape, etc.). While I would love to code applications, mentally, I get a weird block in doing so (impatience plays in here), and usually end up on tangents asking of the value of my input towards the output's aims.

On the other side of that I read about 300 websites of content per day; read a few books per month (always non-fiction), and given the most minimal of facts can usually spot patterns, processes, and failure points towards subjects that I know well and don't know well.

I graduated high school in 1997 (Texrat graduated when I was born, yikes); by the time I got to that point, the impression that you needed to solve problems with varying styles and types of computing knowledge wasn't just something that became clear, but curriculums were under heavy pressure to change - if they had not already. While I only got regular use of a home PC in 1996, it was right before I graduated college that it started making sense *not* to have PC labs on college campuses. What's the solution to enabling a fuller education when things change that quickly...

...and because of how fast things have changed, those with the skills to measure and control change were best positioned to adapt to the changing type of life choices that would be presented. Elementary and high schools are only just getting the types of teachers and tools that are able to teach towards solutions, versus just teaching the tools and hoping that the students meld these into solutions. The tools teaching is indeed lacking, but that's only because the attention to what the solution is hasn't kept up with it.

Whether that makes kids lazy because they can't code or not is up for debate. But given the intellectual capacity for change and solutions-driving that we do, we can't say that the ball is in someone else's court to change the output. We have a (significant) say on the input after all.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Just a reflection on reading this. When I was a kid we had libraries. Most homes couldn't afford an encyclopedia. But the best learning was from other people. You asked stuff, and people sat down with you and took the time to answer. I believe psychologists still reckon that the best learning experience is within a 'teacher-pupil' learning relationship. That human connection for the passing on of learning is something that every generation has enjoyed except the current one.

I can read a wiki. I read the n900 manual before I got the device. I can search for a thread on a topic. But the very best learning experiences I've had in maemo have been from people who stepped up and said "Catch me on IRC and I'll talk you through it". I doub't I'd ever have lost my 'root-virginity' without a maemo-community member to hold my (virtual) hand. Of course, I don't expect that sort of treatment for all learning, but it has been the most encouraging - and has kept me engaged with the learning journey.

So maybe the kids asking 'tell me' 'explain it to me' are seeking that human-centred learning experience. We can hardly complain they're passive when our response to their thirst for knowledge is "Look it up on wikipedia".

I miss my Dad sharing his knowledge and wisdom while we did the dishes together now. :(

Re: The passive generation?
 

To each his/her own. ;) For the most part the teacher-pupil model always slowed me down. My preference is "teach me very young how to solve it for myself, then get out of my way." That serves you well in forums and desert islands. :D

Re: The passive generation?
 

Well any generalisation is going to allow for exceptions. I might have expected you'd be one. :p

Actually, one could argue that that's a feature of the classic 'geek' personality, which is why the 'teach-me' personality of the non-geek is so problematic here. In most other environments people love a chance to show off what they know to someone willing to ask and learn.

Re: The passive generation?
 

Wow Tex.... this is the first political point of view I think we've actually been on the same page :D.

Re: The passive generation?
 

^ Good call (RevdKathy, but fatalsaint too :D).

Re: The passive generation?
 

I've actually never minded the one-on-one instructor/pupil model. In fact it's the reason I do as I do here on the forums, actively participating in threads that I respond to to walk people through it. I also agree that IRC is much easier. Like Tex, I'm usually better at figuring it out though.

The problem I see more and more these days however is that kids are not interested in even the teacher/pupil model. To hell with figuring it out.. they don't even want to be taught it.

What they want.. is to be willfully ignorant of everything and are perfectly content letting everyone else do the work. I have arguments with my wife sometimes when she helps the kids with homeworks because she tells them answers if they don't get it right the first time... you have to walk kids through it - make THEM figure it out.. or at least understand the process in which you GOT the answer.

This phrase is far too common now.. and so unbelievably annoying:

"Can't you just do it for me?"

Re: The passive generation?
 

In one fell swoop you've identified the biggest change that Maemo 5 and the N900 has done to this community. Me wonders if anyone could really be ready for such a drastic shift...

Re: The passive generation?
 

Really good point, i've even seen this from just lurking since the N900 was anounced...
Hopefully tho as people play with a few bits they'll get interested in how the rest works..
... hopefully..

Re: The passive generation?
 

The non-geeks have always been here asking how to do things - just look at the Maemo 1 forum (e.g. questions about "Deleting mails" and "Fullscreen toggle"). What has changed is the percentage of non-geeks (like myself with my unrooted N810) versus geeks. Certainly a large percentage of forum members in the pre-N900 days were geeks (and, I suspect, a large percentage of NIT owners also fit into that category). But now the non-geek floodgates have opened.

Frankly, some of the members were not ready for this and the forum structure is woefully deficient in directing the deluge into flood control channels. My advice is just to keep your head above water and ride the wave. Hopefully the success of the N900 relative to the N770, N800, and N810 will bring more geeks into the fold to develop marvelous programs for us peasants.